Fixing the magicka DK in 1 move. (mostly)

Armitas · October 2015

The core of a DK's viability comes form healing and tankyiness, however if those things are not innate to the class they have to be derived externally through gear. When that happens other things suffer, like our damage or our sustain. We can be tanky but that doesn't make us viable if we can't kill anything.

Due to the progression of nerfs we have received we are chasing after three things just to keep up and still be able to kill something.

Healing - The nerf to healing has caused us to have to reach deep in inc/outgoing healing or switch to stam altogether for Vigor.
Sustain - The nerf to battle roar, ultimate gains, inefficiency of helping hands, coupled with 0 basic H/S/M recovery or generic resource cost reduction has caused us to reach deep into sustain, either through sets, mundus stones or drinks which lowers our max resources.
Defense - The nerf to RS, Cinderstorm, block, dodge, Talons, and Igneous weapons has us reaching for either ranged builds or heavy armor builds.

Our biggest hindrance to getting fixed for damage is this. Dots get purged, and we can't buff either dots or whip without destabilizing PVE DPS balance.

(preface, not for QQ/nerf) Sorcs and night blades both come with sustain built deeply into their class, in addition to that their defense and their offense are parallel. Sorcs can pump stats into magicka increasing their damage and their shielding while being highly mobile while NB's can put everything into offense while relying on cloak for purges and defense, especially with shadow image. Our damage and our survival are completely perpendicular with the exception of reflective scales and this is where we suffer the most.

There is a very simple way to fix all of these problems by only changing 1 skill...Volatile Armor. Volatile armor now returns X% of damage taken and Caps max damage initiated by X. This change cannot destabilize PVE because it requires taking damage to return it and it caps your maximum possible damage. What this does is lower your dps if its high, and increase it if it's low. It allows us to reach out into gear sets to cover our sustain, healing, and defense while relying on our opponents offense to be OUR offense much the same way as Reflective scale. The damage cap also ensures that it remains balanced in PvP because it cannot be used with WB or any other nuke builds because it will cap the maximum amount of damage you can do. Also because Volatile armor returns damage "taken" the more tanky you are the less return it will make which balances it against too much defensiveness.

So with this change we can escape our broken healing, lack of internal sustain and nerfed defense through gear/glyphs/mundus and rely on our enemies for the dps we need to succeed. We are dragon knights, we are dragons. If you strike us you will eat spikes - Battle Chant of the Intrepid Two Hundred.

Sensesfail13 · October 2015

I love the idea, @Armitas , I have just come to the point where I dont think ZoS gives two ***. No legitimate changes to any of the following: Dragonknights, Tanks, Stamina regeneration, the battle spirit nerfs(i.e. healing, damage output, shielding) contained in the patch notes for Orsinium. As it is, unless something drastic is added to Orsinium I will not be buying the DLC... I actually already plan to move onto other games and I cant say Ill be missed seeing as I tend to ruffle feathers alot.

Dragonknights- We have been in a tough spot, not discluding other classes because some of the nerfs such as a second nerf to streak and such are really a detriment to other classes, we have lost our viability. Sure, people have made "tough" builds as a DK in pvp and pve, possible, probable.... not really what I count as fun for building a "hero" in game. Many of the nerfs that have come our way have basically taken the teeth from the dragon we are the best at nothing now. EVERYTHING we were good at has been nerfed to sub-par comparable to other classes and there are no changes in the foreseeable future for our beloved dragons.

This game is done, it might hold on for a bit longer but I just dont see it anymore. Its ashame, I can really see the fun in this game, how it SHOULD have been. These new dungeons, areas, IC... they are all amazing. They just arent fun to play, adding new areas expounding nerf upon nerf on the community, the constant ignoring of players and what they really want from the game... its all just so sad.

Pre-IC should have been kept nearly the same, adjust a couple of skills that were way out of whack instead Zenimax went completely overboard and screwed the pooch yet again with a major launch. @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler your game sucks and you suck, moderation, not of the forums but in changes to the game. Thoroughly tested and applied regularly. That is how the game should be fixed. Instead you throw a proverbial wolf in the hen house with these major changes completely changing the paradigm of a game that, despite its problems, your community still loves. Dont worry, I doubt youll read this... or care, its alright, I feel ashamed enough for us all because I have vested so much time and effort into a game that, frankly, doesnt give two *** about its players or its community.

Goodluck with finding changes for the DK Armitas, god knows we need it. Ive noticed over your posts you keep asking for less and less to fix the DK though, dont do that. Stick to your guns, we need a gap closer, our heals should actually heal 33% of missing health, many of our passives need to be rehashed, etc etc. Dont let these forum warriors beat ya down.

Disgruntled customer out, Peace.

puffy99 · October 2015

Good post, like I said before none of these morons that has a say in nerfs must play the game or they are all NB groupies.

SRIBES · October 2015

Awesome post.

CP5 · October 2015

Sounds like fun.

Moglijuana · October 2015

Bump. I would like to be a DRAGON KNIGHT again. Not some wimpy elf running around with a sparkler trying to burn people's toes. CAN YOU HEAR ME ZOS? Oh wait, too busy sewing blankets to "fix" the problems we have.

Sharkano · October 2015

I almost never play my dk now unless to help someone as a tank. They have blasted them into oblivion by so many nerfs the sun is blotted from the sky -- and it used to be so fun to play my guy. It will only get worse as Maelstrom Arena will be hopelessly hard for tanky builds. I will only be doing it on my sorc or temp. Too bad -- miss my dk.

Tankqull · October 2015

definatly an intresting idea
but how do you handle staffheal spamming DKs if a worthwhile dmg return would be applied to VA? especially as dks are the kings of healing increasing buffs. beeing able to kill a dk trying to survive will take forever with groups <5 people ^^

Ishammael · October 2015

@Armitas

I like the idea.

But they need these other moves, too:
1. Fix gdb
2. Fix chains
3. Help our sustain (add heroism?)
4. Replace crappy skills like stone fist

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

@Armitas

I like the idea.

But they need these other moves, too:
1. Fix gdb
2. Fix chains
3. Help our sustain (add heroism?)
4. Replace crappy skills like stone fist

The irony with #4 is that stone fist is one of the weakest cc's DK has, and yet it is better than Javelin for Templar. Otherwise I generally agree. I don't think the full problem is fully with GDB, but in the ridiculous blocking nerf of the IC patch, those two things combined were pretty awful for DK's. Never fear though, Templars got nerfs too.

Misery does love company.

Chains makes me a little sad as well. I always liked Chains in the early phase of the game, and it just isn't anything like its former glory, to the point that it gets almost no use now. I always wished the Silver leash worked like chains, just so other classes could have the fun (it would still require the double click instead of the singular one DK's have). At this point though they're both somewhat lackluster. When it comes to CC though, DK is definitely fairly high up there with Sorc even or a close second. I dream of the day Templar gets an aoe cc again.

Ishammael · October 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

@Armitas

I like the idea.

But they need these other moves, too:
1. Fix gdb
2. Fix chains
3. Help our sustain (add heroism?)
4. Replace crappy skills like stone fist

The irony with #4 is that stone fist is one of the weakest cc's DK has, and yet it is better than Javelin for Templar. Otherwise I generally agree. I don't think the full problem is fully with GDB, but in the ridiculous blocking nerf of the IC patch, those two things combined were pretty awful for DK's. Never fear though, Templars got nerfs too. Misery does love company.

Chains makes me a little sad as well. I always liked Chains in the early phase of the game, and it just isn't anything like its former glory, to the point that it gets almost no use now. I always wished the Silver leash worked like chains, just so other classes could have the fun (it would still require the double click instead of the singular one DK's have). At this point though they're both somewhat lackluster. When it comes to CC though, DK is definitely fairly high up there with Sorc even or a close second. I dream of the day Templar again.

It's true that templar has poor cc.

But I think it's ok. Templar have other strengths. Also, DKs don't have an execute and I don't think they should get one. That way not all classes are identical.

Armitas · October 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

definatly an intresting idea
but how do you handle staffheal spamming DKs if a worthwhile dmg return would be applied to VA? especially as dks are the kings of healing increasing buffs. beeing able to kill a dk trying to survive will take forever with groups <5 people ^^

While it is true that we have an extraordinary ability to heal via igneous shields 30% extra healing, the only pairing that comes with that of any note is vigor.

The difference between a NB or a Sorc using healing ward, which I assume you are referring to, is that they can protect their bubble with mobility, another bubble, or stealth. We have no mobility, and our igneous shield is health based. There is no internal way for a DK to sufficiently protect our bubble. If the bubble is not protected it will not provide any heal. You will return damage under a bubble but our bubbles are quite small even with healing ward. Any burst attack like wrecking blow is likely to far exceed any bubble we can muster leaving a large portion, I imagine a half portion, overcoming the bubble and applying to our mitigation.

One of the key components of our class having no mobility is that we need to be viable outnumbered. With no burst and no escape the average encounter will likely entail being outnumbered, and we need that aspect to be incorporated into the class to be viable. This is also the case of the Templar, though I believe they are in a better position than we are now. This is just the nature of the other two classes, Templar and DK. It's what makes us different. I'm not saying a DK should be able to 1v5 5 good people but a good dk should have a shot at that fight against less than good opponents.

Forestd16b14_ESO · October 2015

and what of stamina DKs? all DKs have gotten that years of nerfs not just magic ones.

Darnathian · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

@Armitas

I like the idea.

But they need these other moves, too:
1. Fix gdb
2. Fix chains
3. Help our sustain (add heroism?)
4. Replace crappy skills like stone fist

The irony with #4 is that stone fist is one of the weakest cc's DK has, and yet it is better than Javelin for Templar. Otherwise I generally agree. I don't think the full problem is fully with GDB, but in the ridiculous blocking nerf of the IC patch, those two things combined were pretty awful for DK's. Never fear though, Templars got nerfs too. Misery does love company.

Chains makes me a little sad as well. I always liked Chains in the early phase of the game, and it just isn't anything like its former glory, to the point that it gets almost no use now. I always wished the Silver leash worked like chains, just so other classes could have the fun (it would still require the double click instead of the singular one DK's have). At this point though they're both somewhat lackluster. When it comes to CC though, DK is definitely fairly high up there with Sorc even or a close second. I dream of the day Templar again.

It's true that templar has poor cc.

But I think it's ok. Templar have other strengths. Also, DKs don't have an execute and I don't think they should get one. That way not all classes are identical.

Omg. Get real. Leave this thread. He is calling for another dk nerf. Unreal.

timidobserver · October 2015

I can agree with the idea that if your class mechanics render you incapable of escaping an outnumbered situation, you should be more capable of overcoming it.

I could live with the damage return, though I would scale it based on how many people are attacking you or are around you(whichever is easier to code.) I don't think it should be super effective in a 1v1, but it should wreck face if you are being jumped by multiple people.

Ishammael · October 2015

Darnathian wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

@Armitas

I like the idea.

But they need these other moves, too:
1. Fix gdb
2. Fix chains
3. Help our sustain (add heroism?)
4. Replace crappy skills like stone fist

The irony with #4 is that stone fist is one of the weakest cc's DK has, and yet it is better than Javelin for Templar. Otherwise I generally agree. I don't think the full problem is fully with GDB, but in the ridiculous blocking nerf of the IC patch, those two things combined were pretty awful for DK's. Never fear though, Templars got nerfs too. Misery does love company.

Chains makes me a little sad as well. I always liked Chains in the early phase of the game, and it just isn't anything like its former glory, to the point that it gets almost no use now. I always wished the Silver leash worked like chains, just so other classes could have the fun (it would still require the double click instead of the singular one DK's have). At this point though they're both somewhat lackluster. When it comes to CC though, DK is definitely fairly high up there with Sorc even or a close second. I dream of the day Templar again.

It's true that templar has poor cc.

But I think it's ok. Templar have other strengths. Also, DKs don't have an execute and I don't think they should get one. That way not all classes are identical.

Omg. Get real. Leave this thread. He is calling for another dk nerf. Unreal.

What? Who is calling for a DK nerf?

Bashev · October 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

When it comes to CC though, DK is definitely fairly high up there with Sorc even or a close second. I dream of the day Templar gets an aoe cc again.

When it comes to CC in PvP, first place is for NB. There is no other AoE CC as Fear because it doesnt break on damage.

Darnathian · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

@Armitas

I like the idea.

But they need these other moves, too:
1. Fix gdb
2. Fix chains
3. Help our sustain (add heroism?)
4. Replace crappy skills like stone fist

The irony with #4 is that stone fist is one of the weakest cc's DK has, and yet it is better than Javelin for Templar. Otherwise I generally agree. I don't think the full problem is fully with GDB, but in the ridiculous blocking nerf of the IC patch, those two things combined were pretty awful for DK's. Never fear though, Templars got nerfs too. Misery does love company.

Chains makes me a little sad as well. I always liked Chains in the early phase of the game, and it just isn't anything like its former glory, to the point that it gets almost no use now. I always wished the Silver leash worked like chains, just so other classes could have the fun (it would still require the double click instead of the singular one DK's have). At this point though they're both somewhat lackluster. When it comes to CC though, DK is definitely fairly high up there with Sorc even or a close second. I dream of the day Templar again.

It's true that templar has poor cc.

But I think it's ok. Templar have other strengths. Also, DKs don't have an execute and I don't think they should get one. That way not all classes are identical.

Omg. Get real. Leave this thread. He is calling for another dk nerf. Unreal.

What? Who is calling for a DK nerf?

DKS do have an execute. And you said they shouldn't get one

Bashev · October 2015

Armitas wrote: »

There is a very simple way to fix all of these problems by only changing 1 skill...Volatile Armor. Volatile armor now returns X% of damage taken and Caps max damage initiated by X. This change cannot destabilize PVE because it requires taking damage to return it and it caps your maximum possible damage. What this does is lower your dps if its high, and increase it if it's low. It allows us to reach out into gear sets to cover our sustain, healing, and defense while relying on our opponents offense to be OUR offense much the same way as Reflective scale. The damage cap also ensures that it remains balanced in PvP because it cannot be used with WB or any other nuke builds because it will cap the maximum amount of damage you can do. Also because Volatile armor returns damage "taken" the more tanky you are the less return it will make which balances it against too much defensiveness.

I still dont get it how this skill will solve the magicka DKs issues. Lets say that X is 30%. How can you fight against a magicka sors with shields? You eat 10k frag, you return 3k. That is 1/3 from his shield. He plays range and you still do not have range skills or a gap closer.

Armitas · October 2015

Bashev wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There is a very simple way to fix all of these problems by only changing 1 skill...Volatile Armor. Volatile armor now returns X% of damage taken and Caps max damage initiated by X. This change cannot destabilize PVE because it requires taking damage to return it and it caps your maximum possible damage. What this does is lower your dps if its high, and increase it if it's low. It allows us to reach out into gear sets to cover our sustain, healing, and defense while relying on our opponents offense to be OUR offense much the same way as Reflective scale. The damage cap also ensures that it remains balanced in PvP because it cannot be used with WB or any other nuke builds because it will cap the maximum amount of damage you can do. Also because Volatile armor returns damage "taken" the more tanky you are the less return it will make which balances it against too much defensiveness.

I still dont get it how this skill will solve the magicka DKs issues. Lets say that X is 30%. How can you fight against a magicka sors with shields? You eat 10k frag, you return 3k. That is 1/3 from his shield. He plays range and you still do not have range skills or a gap closer.

Well this skill won't do anything against a sorc, you'll have to use the Reflective scales for that fight. It will only reflect melee or PBAOE damage. This won't help at all against bubble stacking, but I think that bubble stacking is it's own problem that needs to be fixed.

Bashev · October 2015

Armitas wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There is a very simple way to fix all of these problems by only changing 1 skill...Volatile Armor. Volatile armor now returns X% of damage taken and Caps max damage initiated by X. This change cannot destabilize PVE because it requires taking damage to return it and it caps your maximum possible damage. What this does is lower your dps if its high, and increase it if it's low. It allows us to reach out into gear sets to cover our sustain, healing, and defense while relying on our opponents offense to be OUR offense much the same way as Reflective scale. The damage cap also ensures that it remains balanced in PvP because it cannot be used with WB or any other nuke builds because it will cap the maximum amount of damage you can do. Also because Volatile armor returns damage "taken" the more tanky you are the less return it will make which balances it against too much defensiveness.

I still dont get it how this skill will solve the magicka DKs issues. Lets say that X is 30%. How can you fight against a magicka sors with shields? You eat 10k frag, you return 3k. That is 1/3 from his shield. He plays range and you still do not have range skills or a gap closer.

Well this skill won't do anything against a sorc, you'll have to use the Reflective scales for that fight. It will only reflect melee or PBAOE damage. This won't help at all against bubble stacking, but I think that bubble stacking is it's own problem that needs to be fixed.

All DoTs should bypass the shields and block. On top of that when a dodge is purged/removed it should do X% from the damage that it was supposed to be done for the remaining duration. Buffing DoTs like this will not be helpful for PvE where they are already very good DPS.

Ishammael · October 2015

Darnathian wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

@Armitas

I like the idea.

But they need these other moves, too:
1. Fix gdb
2. Fix chains
3. Help our sustain (add heroism?)
4. Replace crappy skills like stone fist

The irony with #4 is that stone fist is one of the weakest cc's DK has, and yet it is better than Javelin for Templar. Otherwise I generally agree. I don't think the full problem is fully with GDB, but in the ridiculous blocking nerf of the IC patch, those two things combined were pretty awful for DK's. Never fear though, Templars got nerfs too. Misery does love company.

Chains makes me a little sad as well. I always liked Chains in the early phase of the game, and it just isn't anything like its former glory, to the point that it gets almost no use now. I always wished the Silver leash worked like chains, just so other classes could have the fun (it would still require the double click instead of the singular one DK's have). At this point though they're both somewhat lackluster. When it comes to CC though, DK is definitely fairly high up there with Sorc even or a close second. I dream of the day Templar again.

It's true that templar has poor cc.

But I think it's ok. Templar have other strengths. Also, DKs don't have an execute and I don't think they should get one. That way not all classes are identical.

Omg. Get real. Leave this thread. He is calling for another dk nerf. Unreal.

What? Who is calling for a DK nerf?

DKS do have an execute. And you said they shouldn't get one

You mean Molten Weapons? Aside from one-shot builds that skill is garbage. If it was removed from the DK nobody but Alcast would notice.

Armitas · October 2015

Bashev wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There is a very simple way to fix all of these problems by only changing 1 skill...Volatile Armor. Volatile armor now returns X% of damage taken and Caps max damage initiated by X. This change cannot destabilize PVE because it requires taking damage to return it and it caps your maximum possible damage. What this does is lower your dps if its high, and increase it if it's low. It allows us to reach out into gear sets to cover our sustain, healing, and defense while relying on our opponents offense to be OUR offense much the same way as Reflective scale. The damage cap also ensures that it remains balanced in PvP because it cannot be used with WB or any other nuke builds because it will cap the maximum amount of damage you can do. Also because Volatile armor returns damage "taken" the more tanky you are the less return it will make which balances it against too much defensiveness.

I still dont get it how this skill will solve the magicka DKs issues. Lets say that X is 30%. How can you fight against a magicka sors with shields? You eat 10k frag, you return 3k. That is 1/3 from his shield. He plays range and you still do not have range skills or a gap closer.

Well this skill won't do anything against a sorc, you'll have to use the Reflective scales for that fight. It will only reflect melee or PBAOE damage. This won't help at all against bubble stacking, but I think that bubble stacking is it's own problem that needs to be fixed.

All DoTs should bypass the shields and block. On top of that when a dodge is purged/removed it should do X% from the damage that it was supposed to be done for the remaining duration. Buffing DoTs like this will not be helpful for PvE where they are already very good DPS.

It wasn't in the patch notes (at least I don't believe) but they do hit through block now. So if you hit burning embers they will block the initial damage but the dot will tick through unblocked. The problem is they just don't do any damage when they do. One option is to either reduce or remove the Battle spirit damage penalty to dots. They put the 50% damage nerf up to stop the burst damage and increase the time to live, but since dots are not burst it is counter to the spirit of that nerf that they should also be reduced. I think that could really add a new meta to the PvP instead of the go burst or go home meta we have now.

Yeah, that is exactly what needs to happen with purges on dots. That makes purge have some value, and dots have some value. Then the purger has to think "If I purge this right now i'm going to take a big burst hit, maybe I should let this tick out a little longer before I purge it". Or the cloaker may think. "I really want to stealth up right now but maybe I should wait a bit longer so I don't take a big hit in damage." "Maybe my stealth surprise, stealth surprise, combo isn't the best rotation here".

sigh...now I just made myself sad hearing such a great idea and knowing they either wont do it, won't even see this thread, or that it will take half a year to do it.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · October 2015

Sounds interesting, and well thought out. +1

Tonnopesce · October 2015

Nah changing 1 skill does not do the job imho.

Other than the "upgrade" you proupose , flame lash has to take off the "cannot stun players" and all the dk dots (our main power) needs to act like inevitabile detonation so if the targer purge it , at least 50% of the damage need to trigger immediatly .

And please remove the battle level from GDB a nerf this big in this ability is not needed now that anyone can use vigor

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

Bashev wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

When it comes to CC though, DK is definitely fairly high up there with Sorc even or a close second. I dream of the day Templar gets an aoe cc again.

When it comes to CC in PvP, first place is for NB. There is no other AoE CC as Fear because it doesnt break on damage.

I'll concede that, but at least it has a 3 target limit, so needs spamming to really fear the masses. DK abilities like Talons and Sorc abilities like Encase have no such limits. This makes them ideal for your team to bomb with Nova/Comet/etc. Fear is definitely good. Either way I still think Templar needs something like Blinding Flashes back, or some form of proper aoe cc.

Mumyo · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

@Armitas

I like the idea.

But they need these other moves, too:
1. Fix gdb
2. Fix chains
3. Help our sustain (add heroism?)
4. Replace crappy skills like stone fist

The irony with #4 is that stone fist is one of the weakest cc's DK has, and yet it is better than Javelin for Templar. Otherwise I generally agree. I don't think the full problem is fully with GDB, but in the ridiculous blocking nerf of the IC patch, those two things combined were pretty awful for DK's. Never fear though, Templars got nerfs too. Misery does love company.

Chains makes me a little sad as well. I always liked Chains in the early phase of the game, and it just isn't anything like its former glory, to the point that it gets almost no use now. I always wished the Silver leash worked like chains, just so other classes could have the fun (it would still require the double click instead of the singular one DK's have). At this point though they're both somewhat lackluster. When it comes to CC though, DK is definitely fairly high up there with Sorc even or a close second. I dream of the day Templar again.

It's true that templar has poor cc.

But I think it's ok. Templar have other strengths. Also, DKs don't have an execute and I don't think they should get one. That way not all classes are identical.

They do have some sort of execution.

Laggus · October 2015

Great post and its really worth taking serioulsy.

Now ZOS, will you get the ball rolling on this now please and not wait to form a subcommittee to discuss the possibility of bringing this to Chairman of the committee so he/she can discuss the raising it with the VP then the President at the next AGM.

Thanks.