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Dual wield: Current Issues

Jar_Ek
Jar_Ek
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IC Dual Wield Current Issues
This is an attempt to capture the current concerns / issues of the dual wield user community with regards to the dual wield skill line.

The intention of this post is for dual wielders to be able to present their skill line concerns in a single location – I will try to keep the OP up to date with perceived issues.

If @zos would like to comment on any / all of these issues, I will include those comments in the OP.

TDLR: Here is a list of perceived concerns, issues and suggestions for change for the dual wield skill line. The suggestions are not all intended to be applied simultaneously – it is simply a list of suggestions for change.

Please read and comment.

Most Used Skills [PvE and PvP]
Damage: Steel Tornado, Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade
Utility: Quick Cloak
Survivability: None

General Concerns
Minimal survivability support:
The skill line has no effective defensive skills as Blade Cloak only provides mitigation vs AoE damage [which the game encourages you to dodge roll to avoid] and Blood Craze is an unreliable heal due to the limitations of bleeds.
By comparison:
2 Handed skill line:
Momentum provides a HoT (and morphs for root/snare immunity or instant Heal)
Brawler provides a damage shield that increases with number of targets hit
1 Handed + Shield:
Low Slash provides a maim debuff (and a morph for multi-target maim)
Defensive posture and passives provide increased block effectiveness and spell absorb/reflect
Bow:
Passives provide additional range and mobility
Volley provides a ground targeted AoE immobolise
Bombard provides an AoE immobolise + snare
Scattershot provides a knockback (and morph for snare or gap creator)

Lack of effective internal synergy:
Dual wield internal synergy is lacking as there is limited internal synergy with Ruffian (the skill line has limited ways to trigger Ruffian as it does not trigger on snares), and limited synergy between the active skills in the skill line.

Inconsistent skill line theme:
Skill line appears to be trying to fill too many simultaneous roles. It is trying to provide ranged single target and ranged AoE, as well as melee single target and melee AoE, and some survivability / utility. The result is that it lacks cohesiveness and effectiveness as a stand-alone skill line.
The general assumption by most players seems to be that the skill line should be a high damage, burst, melee skill line which essentially sacrifices survivability for damage output. However it is currently out-classed in that respect by the Two-Handed skill line (at least for single target damage).

One good active skill:
Generally perceived that there is a single very good active skill within the skill line (Steel tornado morph) and all the other active skills are all somewhat lacklustre for a variety of reasons (discussed below).

Weapon procs and DoTs
Although not specific to DW, the purgability of effects and the lack of stacking of dots is an issue for DW (see bleed dots below)

Specific Concerns
Bleed DoTs:
Issues:
Bleed DoTs do not work against a large subset of the mobs within the game (undead, constructs)
Bleed DoTs do not work against shields
Bleed DoTs do not stack and hence potential damage is overwritten on each application
Bleed DoTs should continue once successfully applied irrespective of subsequent blocks or shields [i.e. if the bleed was applied prior to a block or shield being in place]
Due to the fast pace of the game, the high resource meta, the spammable nature of skills and the limited number of available skills lots, skills which cause the majority of their damage through DoTs are relatively weak because DoTs do not stack.
Suggestions:
Bleed DoTs should work against all types of foe
Bleed DoTs should affect shields
Bleed DoTs should continue at the rate they initially hit for irrespective of blocks or shields (including if they originally hit a shield or a blocked target)
Bleed DoTs should stack (to a maximum stack of 3)

Passives: Dual Wield Expert
Issue:
Tooltip is somewhat confusing as to the effect it actually provides
Suggestions:
Change the tooltip to state the current weapon power bonus from the off-hand weapon
Passives: Ruffian
Issue:
Passive does not currently synergise with the skill line effectively (potential synergy with Blinding Fury only).
Suggestions:
Ensure Ruffian is triggered by all CC types, especially snares (the skill line has multiple snares).
Have Ruffian work on foes with an active bleed DoT on them (supports Axe and Twin slash use).
Add more effects that do trigger this passive to the active skills within the skill line (i.e. immobilisation, stun, silence).
Passive: Twin Blunt and Blade
Issues:
Axe bleed DoT has a delay before it starts
Axe bleed DoT suffers from all the issues associated with bleed DoTs
Suggestion:
Increase the DoT chance for axes and make all opponents affected by bleed DoTs.
Remove the delay for the axe bleed DoT to take effect.

Active: Twin Slashes
Issues:
Majority of the damage is from the bleed DoT – which can be purged, many NPCs are immune to, does not stack, and can be effectively cancelled by blocking and/or shields.
Suggestions:
Increase base damage and reduce the DoT duration.
Make bleed DoTs work (see Bleeds).
Allow the bleed DoT to stack up to 3 times.
Active: Blood Craze (morph of Twin Slashes)
Issue:
Due to the issues with Bleed DoTs, the heal component is unreliable and ineffective in many situations (especially noticeable in PvP with the prevalence of shields and blocks).
Suggestion:
If Bleed DoTs are made to work on shields and against all opponents, then the heal component will also apply in such circumstances.
If the DoT is not made to work against all opponents and shields, then apply an initial heal on hit and also apply the DoT based self-heal.
Stacking the DoT would mean that the heal would be effective when fully applied.
Active: Rending Slashes (morph of Twin Slashes)
Issues:
Currently is of limited use as the majority of damage is from the DoT (see Bleeds)
Does not synergise with Ruffian
Suggestion:
Apply a short duration immobilise followed by a snare to enable Ruffian to be triggered whilst the opponent is immobilised.
Allow Ruffian to trigger off snares
Further increase base damage of morph and reduce DoT duration accordingly

Active: Flurry
Issues:
Channel time is not in line with tooltip and is overly long (about 3s instead of 1.3s)
Damage is too low for the channel/cast time without secondary effects (compared to Uppercut)
Skill cannot be used effectively with animation cancelling (unlike Uppercut)
Skill does not heal with sorcerer surge ability (considered a DoT)
Suggestion:
Increase base damage slightly
Decrease channel time to match tooltip.
Allow channels to work with Surge
Active: Blinding Fury (morph of Flurry)
Issues:
Only a small chance to cause the disorient effect (per strike).
Suggestion:
Make the disorient chance stacking, such that the more strikes that hit, the higher the disorient chance – with the last strike being 100% if it has not yet occurred. Prevent the damage from the current Blinding Fury breaking the disorient (if it can do so)

Active: Blade Cloak
Issues:
AoE damage reduction is of limited use / value given the playstyle (mobile and deadly) and nature of the game (hard to justify slotting the skill as AoE damage is generally something that should be avoided)
Damage component of skill is too slow and the damage is too low
Suggestions:
Provide a general damage reduction (i.e. against all attacks)
Provide a minor protection buff rather than AoE damage reduction
Increase the AoE damage tick rate
Add Brutality to skill and remove from Hidden Blade
Alternatively remove the skill entirely and replace with a different one
Active: Deadly Cloak
Issue:
Second press to activate the throw is a very clunky mechanic, making the skill poor in terms of pure dps and of limited utility benefit
Throw blade effect is essentially a poor replication of Hidden Blade
Suggestion:
Remove the thrown blade and increase the AoE damage component significantly, both in terms of damage and tick rate to compensate (making it an effective mobile PBAOE effect)
Remove thrown blade and provide a general damage reduction (i.e. minor protection + 20% AoE damage reduction) instead
Alternatively remove the skill entirely and replace with a different one
Active: Quick Cloak
Issue:
Same issues as base skill – generally the only morph selected and only selected for the mobility buff
Suggestion:
This mobility buff could be provided on an entirely different skill if Blade Cloak were to be changed

Active: Hidden Blade
Issues:
Brutality buff cannot be pre-applied (unlike Rally).
Use of a ranged weapon is not really in keeping with the rest of the skill line.
Ranged weapon use does not synergise well with skill line (i.e. still have to engage with opponents in melee range to use any other skill, no real benefit in keeping opponents at a stand-off range [rest of skills do not support kiting], snares do not trigger Ruffian)
Suggestions:
Give the brutality buff to blade cloak / a buff skill
Change to a melee skill with appropriate damage or secondary effects.
Change to a gap closer (or change a morph to one) with a snare – potentially could be a leap that finishes behind opponent.
Remove the skill entirely and replace with a different one (see Feint and Leaping Strike)
Active: Shrouded Daggers
Issues:
Skill line does not need an ranged multi-target snare as it has little to synergise with (only direct synergy is to keep foes close together to ensure they can be hit with Whirlwind; indirect synergy is snare and mobility buff allowing for a hit and run style)
Suggestion:
If Hidden Blade remains a ranged attack, then change this morph to a gap closer with a multi-target snare (provides the same capability in terms of synergy with Whirlwind, but provides a much needed gap closer that works with other skills).
If Hidden Blade becomes a gap closer or melee skill, then change this morph to a ranged attack with a snare (to keep a single ranged attack within the skill tree).
Remove the skill entirely and replace with a different one
Active: Flying Blade
Issues:
Use of a ranged weapon is not really in keeping with the rest of the skill line.
Ranged weapon use does not synergise well with skill line (i.e. still have to engage with opponents in melee range to use any other skill, no real benefit in keeping opponents at a stand-off range [rest of skills do not support kiting], snares do not trigger Ruffian)
Suggestion:
Change to a gap closer (with greater damage and longer range than unmorphed)
Change to a provide a debuff on hit (fracture or defile)
Remove the skill entirely and replace with a different one

Analysis:
The skill line needs access to reliable melee damage (e.g. DoTs and channel must be fixed), a gap closer and a mobility buff. In addition it requires either better survivability options or higher damage output (to compensate for the lack of survivability options). It only requires a single ranged snare (if any and probably only as a single morph) and it does not require a ranged AoE snare (that’s what bows are for).
Edited by Jar_Ek on 16 October 2015 06:09
  • Jar_Ek
    Jar_Ek
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    New Skill Suggestions
    These are intended as possible replacements for Blade Cloak and Hidden Blade.
    The Parry/Riposte and Ferocity skills both work off a similar premise (i.e. combine offensive and defensives buffs) and are suggestions as replacements for Blade Cloak, the Feint and Leaping Strike skills are suggestions to replace Hidden Blade.
    The best options are probably “Feint” (with Hidden Blade and Wind-runner’s Illusion) to replace “Hidden Blade” and “Parry and Riposte” (with Flashing Blades and Deadly Ferocity).

    Parry and Riposte
    Suggestion:
    New skill called “Parry and Riposte” to replace Blade Cloak.
    This provides a minor evasion and minor protection buff for 20s, and grants major Brutality for 20s.
    If a melee attack is evaded (or blocked), then the attacker is immediately/automatically struck by a light attack and is immobolised for 1.5s.
    Reason:
    This provides a utility skill which gives set of minor defensive buffs and provides a (weapon) damage buff that can be pre-cast. It has a chance to trigger a secondary effect, triggering all light attack effects and causing a short immobolisation (which triggers Ruffian).
    Possible morphs
    Lightning Reflexes (Morph of Parry and Riposte)
    Suggestion:
    This now provides major evasion (rather than minor) and ability duration is increased to 30s at max rank
    Reason:
    Has a greater chance to trigger the secondary effect and provides a good short-term defence.
    Flashing Blades (Morph of Parry and Riposte or Ferocity)
    Suggestion:
    Skill provides a major expedition buff as Quick Cloak did.
    Reason:
    This allows the melee fighter to stay in melee combat more easily.

    Ferocity
    Suggestion:
    New skill to replace blade cloak.
    This skill provides defensive and offensive buffs based on the weapons used (20s to 30s at max rank):
    Weapon: Offensive(MH). Offensive (OH). Defensive (MH). Defensive (OH)
    Axes: Brutality. Berserk. Evasion. Vitality
    Maces: Brutality. Brutality. Resolve. Vitality
    Swords: Brutality. Brutality. Resolve. Protection
    Daggers: Force. Force. Evasion. Evasion
    The buff is minor for a single occurrence of a specific buff and major for two occurrences [i.e. Twin Daggers would give major Force and major Evasion].
    Reason:
    This is a pre-cast buff that can be tailored to play-style through weapon selection and provides the equivalent of a major offensive and defensive buff – however this could be somewhat complex.
    Destructive Ferocity (Morph of Ferocity or Parry and Riposte)
    Suggestion:
    Light and Heavy attacks (alternatively critical strikes) made whilst the Ferocity (Parry/Riposte) buff is active apply / reapply a debuff to targets hit:
    Axes: Mangle (3s)
    Maces: Fracture (3s)
    Swords: Maim (3s)
    Daggers: Defile (3s) [or shield breaker(3s)]
    The buff is minor for a single weapon of type and major for two weapons of type (weapon swap will change the current effect).
    [Shield Breaker would cause the shield to take critical damage from your attacks and be affected by your DoTs. The Damage done to the shield (only) would be multiplied by 2.]
    Reason:
    This morph can be tailored to play-style through weapon selection and provides synergistic debuffs to support melee combat.
    Deadly Ferocity (Morph of Ferocity or Parry and Riposte)
    Suggestion:
    Whilst Ferocity (Parry/Riposte) buff is active, all bleeding, debuffed, and snared opponents are affected by the Ruffian passive (as well as the disabled ones).
    Reason:
    Provides a passive damage boost to all DW skills through skill line synergy

    Feint
    Suggestion:
    New skill called “Feint” to replace Hidden Blade.
    This is a misdirection and attack in one move, feinting with one weapon and striking with the other. It is a melee range, high damage, instant, single target attack that provides Empower (extra damage on next attack) and snares the target hit.
    Reasoning:
    This is a direct replacement for Hidden Blade, but makes it melee ranged and hence higher damage and it provides an Empower buff (assuming Brutality has been moved to another skill – otherwise it would probably need to be major Brutality).
    It is also far more in keeping with the use of two weapons in melee combat.
    Possible morphs
    Hidden Blade (Morph of Feint)
    Suggestion:
    This is a misdirection and a thrown attack in one move. It is a ranged version of Feint but also interrupts and has the same range and damage as Flying Blade currently has.
    Reasoning:
    This keeps a ranged option within the skill line
    Wind-runner’s Illusion (Morph of Feint)
    Suggestion:
    This is a charging misdirection attack, rushing in and body feinting past the target to strike with both weapons at their back. The result is a melee range, high damage, instant, single target attack that ends behind the opponent. It works as a charge at range (and as an attack when close) and provides Empower (extra damage on next attack) and snares the target hit.
    Reasoning:
    This provides a gap closer to the skill line that still works in melee range – and also provides a movement mechanic that can move you out of some AoE abilities (i.e. has a defensive element). This ability might need to have a stacking cost.

    Leaping Strike
    Suggestion:
    New skill called “Leaping Strike” to replace Hidden Blade.
    Leap up and strike at your opponent (with a run-up if at range), striking with both weapons for (high) damage. This strike interrupts and disorients your target (for 2s).
    Reasoning:
    Provides a gap closer and deals single target damage.
    May be re-used whilst in melee range.
    Synergises with Ruffian passive.
    Possible morphs
    Somersaulting Strike (Morph of Leaping Strike)
    Suggestion:
    Leap over your opponent (with a run-up if at range), striking with both weapons for (high) damage and landing behind them (and facing them). The leap is considered to be a dodge roll (i.e. you take no damage during its execution) and the strike interrupts and disorients your target (for 2s). However this ability has a 33% cost increase for every use within a 4s period – this cost increase is shared with a standard dodge roll.
    Reasoning:
    Provides a defensive mechanism built into the attack, but this comes at a cost increase.
    Shattering Leap (Morph of Leaping Strike)
    Suggestion:
    Run and then leap at your opponent (gap closer), striking with both weapons for (high) damage. This strike interrupts and disorients your target. This strike causes a major fracture debuff on the target (4s).
    Reasoning:
    Provides a useful debuff to the line that works with the other skills.
    Edited by Jar_Ek on 16 October 2015 06:18
  • hardcore_gmr
    hardcore_gmr
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    You do realize that weapon procs like concussion, burning, frozen and bleed are all effects that are purgable. Most enemies are also invulnerable to these effects in pve. Not saying that the rest of what you posted isn't true, or awesome (love the riposte skill and both morphs. ...ZoS make this happen now!) But dots are in a real bad place right now, with the standardization of procs and the in effectiveness in pvp due to purge, they are at best a small amount of damage in addition to whatever you get from the skills up front damage.
  • Jar_Ek
    Jar_Ek
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    You do realize that weapon procs like concussion, burning, frozen and bleed are all effects that are purgable. Most enemies are also invulnerable to these effects in pve. Not saying that the rest of what you posted isn't true, or awesome (love the riposte skill and both morphs. ...ZoS make this happen now!) But dots are in a real bad place right now, with the standardization of procs and the in effectiveness in pvp due to purge, they are at best a small amount of damage in addition to whatever you get from the skills up front damage.

    You are quite correct about purge and dots in general, but as they are not dual wield specifically I didn't highlight the issues. I will add a general issue about weapon procs and dots.
  • Cody
    Cody
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    Blade cloak has not changed at all the past 5 months, so I feel I can comment on it without looking like a fool.

    The intention of the ability is not the issue. that 20% reduction in AOE damage does help when the situation arises, both in PvP and PvE, unfortunately such a situation is rare. Usually when such a scenario pops up, the amount of AOE will kill you regardless, making the ability, in reality, quite limited. The only decent thing about it is the speed boost, which 2 classes already have in their class based abilities:/ Here is my idea;

    Replace blade cloak with some kind of gap closer. I understand the desire to not make DW a carbon copy of 2H, but the lack of a gap closer is one of the things killing the DW skillline(as well as its reliance on DoTs for damage, but that's a topic for another thread) Give it a gap closer and the skillline will be much better.
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    Dual wield could definitely use a gap closer, however don't use blade cloak for that, it takes away the only pre-fight buff dual wield has. I like the idea of "parry and riposte" it definitely looks like a very usable skill that would benefit the dual wield tree. "Leaping strike" also would be an excellent gap closer, I don't know if ESO though might feel it was too similar in design to ambush from the NB tree, but a gap closer is definitely needed. Just those two changes I think would make a big impact to dual wield builds and make them much more competitive.
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  • Daymond
    Daymond
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    Alot of good ideas to make dual wield equal to 2h and 1h shield.
  • RAGUNAnoOne
    RAGUNAnoOne
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    The fact that DW is the weapon of choice for magic builds is stupid this skillline should have better physical skills but not affect spell damage like it does.
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  • Enimis
    Enimis
    Agree, physical part of DW is underpowered, except Steel tornado (just for aoe it's good).
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