The removal of the Veteran Ranks.

Kuroinu · October 2015

The intention of this thread is to "theorycraft" as to what will change and how, when this removal takes place. This isn't about if a player wants them to stay or not. So please do your best to avoid posting your opinion based on if you want them removed or not, thanks!

This thought has been in the back of my mind since threads started popping up about Monster Trophies being almost impossible to obtain because you've reached a certain level and also threads about Craglorn Trials becoming inferior due to the level cap being raised. These issues all have good points, but the thing being forgotten the most is that they are working on the removal of the Veteran Ranks, which may or may not effect these issues. However we don't actually know much about this removal, apart from that it's going to happen.

What I haven't seen discussed is: "How will the Veteran Rank removal effect the game and what will have changed?" I'll break this down into a few smaller questions below to get you thinking.

With the removal of the Veteran Ranks...

What will become of the Skill Points and Attribute Points we gained?
What level will the VR crafting materials be adjusted to and how will this effect the level 50 and below materials? (Link to a post detailing an answer to this)
What will become of the costumes we unlocked and how will they be unlocked in future?
What will the level of VR zones be adjusted to and how will this effect content within those zones? E.g. Craglorn Trials.

These are just a few of the questions I have and I'm sure you can all think of more. When it comes to some questions, many might think along the lines of "Everything will be level 50". In terms of zone levels that may be the case, but I'm unsure if this can be the case for crafted items and materials because there would be an excess of raw materials such as potency runes, ores, hides etc. and they can't just remove them because we all currently use them. So I'm curious to know what they'll be doing with all this "VR junk" lol.

If we can get any information on this topic from the Development or Community team, that'd be appreciated!

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno

Edit: Another thing that I've thought about that I forgot to mention is that the change might literally be converting everything from Veteran Ranks 1~16 to Levels 51~65. For a while now I've felt that this is what is going to happen, but who knows! (We know, who knows!) - No longer relevant due to info. in the video below.

Edit #2: I totally forgot about this video and I'm sorry that I did not place it in my original post to begin with.

Please go to 52:51 on this video. This was said in July of this year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rtw2wfJaLU

Speely · October 2015

Honestly I think VR removal may never happen. Like ever. I feel like their reaction to player input was a bit knee-jerky and now they have reached the point of no return. What are the options?

Do away with VRs and increase level cap to 66? Why? Same thing. Might as well tell everyone "Hey guys, we are gonna roll with this after all." The alternative is literally taking stuff away from their most devoted players. ZOS is not in a position to do that, full stop. So I think VRs are here to stay.

Edit: Not to take away from your questions. They are good ones.

Kuroinu · October 2015

Speely wrote: »

Honestly I think VR removal may never happen. Like ever. I feel like their reaction to player input was a bit knee-jerky and now they have reached the point of no return. What are the options?

Do away with VRs and increase level cap to 66? Why? Same thing. Might as well tell everyone "Hey guys, we are gonna roll with this after all." The alternative is literally taking stuff away from their most devoted players. ZOS is not in a position to do that, full stop. So I think VRs are here to stay.

Edit: Not to take away from your questions. They are good ones.

Unless they announce that "It's too much work." it's going to happen because they've said so in very recent events such as this years Quakcon and recent ESO Live episodes. Remember, it's been in the works for a while and for good reason. It effects a significant part of the game, if not all of it. It's a grand undertaking and I expect that to be a long slow process.

Try to avoid discussing if it will or will not happen. It's not the point of this thread, but perhaps we'd have nothing to discuss otherwise, since we don't know anything about it lol.

I'd prefer if we stuck to "Theorycrafting" on how it might work.

phairdon · October 2015

Did Zos state the level cap is going to be 50 if/when veteran ranks are removed? Hate to imagine how much work is involved is removing veteran ranks, whether we see a level 50 cap or level 65.

Kuroinu · October 2015

phairdon wrote: »

Did Zos state the level cap is going to be 50 if/when veteran ranks are removed? Hate to imagine how much work is involved is removing veteran ranks, whether we see a level 50 cap or level 65.

Nothing has been stated, but we can only assume it'll be level 50 or 65 like you also said. I can't see it any other way, has to be one of those!

Artemisshrikes · October 2015

removing VR will remove the fun of the game after hitting 50

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · October 2015

My guess is because they said the Champion Point system was meant to replace Veteran Ranks, content and items would be based on what tier in the champion point system your account is in verses your current character level. Example instead of having to be v15-16 to wear Molag Kena armor, your character would have to have 300 CP. Dungeons would scale based on how many CP the group leader has. Crafted materials would be the same way, as higher level materials are already used to create higher level items. Skill points awarded after so many CP earned (10 as example).

When it comes to CP tiers, it would be like 0-100 would be tier 1, 101-200 would be tier 2, and so on. Then possibly have it so players would instance with other players in the same tier as them.

Problem I think is if this is what ZoS meant, I cant think of a game which uses this mechanic. Everything is level-based which is tested and proved to work. With this, they are shooting in the dark so I am sure they want to do it right. Rather have the dreadful VR level stick around until there confident with such an overhaul. Cant see it being just a simple transfer over from v16 to level 65, they could of done that by now.

ontheleftcoast · October 2015

I predict they'll remove veteran ranks and drop the build on the PTS.
I predict there will be *TONS* of negative feedback about how it breaks game play and ruins characters left and right.
I predict ZOS will ignore 99.8% of this feedback and make one cosmetic change before dropping it on the live server.
I predict ~8000 rage quit post will appear on the forums
I predict the 95% or more who remain will figure out how do make do with this latest disaster in game design because MMO players seem to be gluttons for punishment.
I predict an even worse system than either the VR or CP system will proposed as a "fix" to the problem.
I predict you can then repeat this entire process until the servers finally are shutdown.

AGrz5585 · October 2015

They could do a rating system on weapons/armor, etc. Like the current v16 equips would still use the current mats and be level 50 with a rating of say 65. (As in level 65 stats). That way our character level will stay 50 but with each DLC they do they can up the ratings so we continue to see stat growth. This way players won't have to grind CP to get best gear but just by playing new content or doing new dungeons/higher difficulty of existing dungeons to get new higher rating gear.

SleepyTroll · October 2015

I think they just wanted to calm people down, but we need lvl progression right guys? They have been working on removal since craglorn...

Sausage · October 2015

•What will become of the Skill Points and Attribute Points we gained?
- Give them after Silver/Gold zone completion.

•What level will the VR crafting materials be adjusted to and how will this effect the level 50 and below materials?
- One endgame material is much better than 8 different.

•What will become of the costumes we unlocked and how will they be unlocked in future?
- Give them after Silver/Gold zone completion.

•What will the level of VR zones be adjusted to and how will this effect content within those zones? E.g. Craglorn Trials.
- LVL 50.

UltimaJoe777 · October 2015

Soon as Zenimax does figure out how to remove it with no negative repercussions they will. Until then it's a waiting game...

Kuroinu · October 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Soon as Zenimax does figure out how to remove it with no negative repercussions they will. Until then it's a waiting game...

I'm not sure that's going to be possible lol. Players should "brace for impact" when this is known to be coming in an upcoming major patch.

Worst case scenario: Everything that is touched by VR no longer exists, so you no longer exist and are met with the character creation screen on log in.

Lol.

Anhedonie · October 2015

As for crafting I think they will just add item levels, so new materials will stay relevant.

Farorin · October 2015

If instead of removing it they just making it up to like level 65 or whatever, what the hell would be the point of that? I whole reason why people hate Vet ranks is the grindyness and the chasm it creates between player bases.

UltimaJoe777 · October 2015

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Soon as Zenimax does figure out how to remove it with no negative repercussions they will. Until then it's a waiting game...

I'm not sure that's going to be possible lol. Players should "brace for impact" when this is known to be coming in an upcoming major patch.

Worst case scenario: Everything that is touched by VR no longer exists, so you no longer exist and are met with the character creation screen on log in.

Lol.

Well Zenimax knows they can't just remove them and cap everyone at Level 50. When Vet Ranks are removed we will most likely go beyond Level 50 and those at Vet Ranks will be made whatever Level matches what the Vet Rank used to be. I could be mistaken though and it may be something totally different but only time will tell...

DaveMoeDee · October 2015

Anhedonie wrote: »

As for crafting I think they will just add item levels, so new materials will stay relevant.

What do you mean by item levels? That's primarily what VR is - Item levels. Even more so back when they didn't give attribute points for VR levels (at least that's how I remember it being)

Kuroinu · October 2015

Farorin wrote: »

If instead of removing it they just making it up to like level 65 or whatever, what the hell would be the point of that? I whole reason why people hate Vet ranks is the grindyness and the chasm it creates between player bases.

Perhaps having "Levels" as opposed to "Ranks" feels better for visual clarity. As for the grind, I'm ok with the current amounts needed to level, but I do think they should have stuck to the same exp curve we had for levels 1~50.

Legedric · October 2015

It's a myth... they will never remove them.

They will just push the limit to VR18 next year and so on...

DaveMoeDee · October 2015

Farorin wrote: »

If instead of removing it they just making it up to like level 65 or whatever, what the hell would be the point of that? I whole reason why people hate Vet ranks is the grindyness and the chasm it creates between player bases.

Yes, that would be a pointless change.

The gap between players on different vet levels is not really the problem any more than the gap between level 40 and level 50 is a problem. In fact, the point of vet levels is to decrease the gap we would have if level progression was linear from level 1 to max level. Imagine if Cadwell's Silver has as many levels as the initial alliance quests?

The problem is that people want to level multiple characters to max level in a reasonable amount of time without without committing to grinding mobs. Many don't want to complete 3 factions for each alt. they don't want to listen to the same quest stories for each alt because they aren't interesting the fourth time.

sagitter · October 2015

I'm fine with vr levels, it's easy now exp vet levels. 1-50 is a joke it takes less than 24 hour grinding or less then a week questing and normal playing. Vr are the levels before there is nothing for me.

DaveMoeDee · October 2015

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

My guess is because they said the Champion Point system was meant to replace Veteran Ranks, content and items would be based on what tier in the champion point system your account is in verses your current character level. Example instead of having to be v15-16 to wear Molag Kena armor, your character would have to have 300 CP. Dungeons would scale based on how many CP the group leader has. Crafted materials would be the same way, as higher level materials are already used to create higher level items. Skill points awarded after so many CP earned (10 as example).

When it comes to CP tiers, it would be like 0-100 would be tier 1, 101-200 would be tier 2, and so on. Then possibly have it so players would instance with other players in the same tier as them.

Problem I think is if this is what ZoS meant, I cant think of a game which uses this mechanic. Everything is level-based which is tested and proved to work. With this, they are shooting in the dark so I am sure they want to do it right. Rather have the dreadful VR level stick around until there confident with such an overhaul. Cant see it being just a simple transfer over from v16 to level 65, they could of done that by now.

Considering you can hit VR14 with less than 100 CP, scaling that would be extremely disruptive.

Kuroinu · October 2015

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

My guess is because they said the Champion Point system was meant to replace Veteran Ranks, content and items would be based on what tier in the champion point system your account is in verses your current character level. Example instead of having to be v15-16 to wear Molag Kena armor, your character would have to have 300 CP. Dungeons would scale based on how many CP the group leader has. Crafted materials would be the same way, as higher level materials are already used to create higher level items. Skill points awarded after so many CP earned (10 as example).

When it comes to CP tiers, it would be like 0-100 would be tier 1, 101-200 would be tier 2, and so on. Then possibly have it so players would instance with other players in the same tier as them.

Problem I think is if this is what ZoS meant, I cant think of a game which uses this mechanic. Everything is level-based which is tested and proved to work. With this, they are shooting in the dark so I am sure they want to do it right. Rather have the dreadful VR level stick around until there confident with such an overhaul. Cant see it being just a simple transfer over from v16 to level 65, they could of done that by now.

Considering you can hit VR14 with less than 100 CP, scaling that would be extremely disruptive.

It really comes down to what the exp values would be for levels and CP. Currently we know that they're working on a CP exp curve of sorts, so you'll gain them faster during the lower CP ranks.

Anhedonie · October 2015

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

As for crafting I think they will just add item levels, so new materials will stay relevant.

What do you mean by item levels? That's primarily what VR is - Item levels. Even more so back when they didn't give attribute points for VR levels (at least that's how I remember it being)

VRs right now are regular levels. They were item levels long time ago.

I think that, for example, voidsteel and rubium ingots will be both capped at level 50, but the latter will allow to craft more powerfull items with better stats.

Mettaricana · October 2015

Champion points add passive hp mp stamina as you apply them sooooo remove vet ranks and buff champion resource buffs extend elightenment duration or reduce its cost per point so that by 1000ish points they equate to vr 16 and anything after is just being stronger than average. Or option two raise cap to nornal level 66 make the exp progress normally from lvl 50 onward no jump from 249k to 850k but a normal progression 255k> 265k > 275k or slightly larger exp increments. Make vr dungeons accessible after lvl 50 and like normal get harder based on party leader. Gear doesn't change just becomes nirmal lvl 66 doesn't become vr 16. Every major expansion can add like 4 levels to cap etc for harder dungeons and revamps if old ones. And life goes on un nerfed and those who like a korean style grind fest for 12.9 mil exp vet ranks can go play maplestory or suck it up buttercup.

Brrrofski · October 2015

ZOS sends out so many mixed signals..

Removing vet ranks would make the game so boring for a pve player.

I imagine people want them gone so they cannot max. rock endgame gear and go to Cyrodiil as soon as possible.

But what does a PVE player do at 50? Silver and gold with no progression would be incredibly dull.

So it seems they don't care about PVE. So why is then ext DLC a solo zone?

Do ZOS even know what we want? Or what they want us to have?

I have no problem with the vet ranks.

I enjoy PVE as it is. I'll go into Cyrodiil at any level and enjoy myself.

Mettaricana · October 2015

There's no progress in vet ranks either noone runs silver or gold or even opens chests til max level so vr 16 is the same level of progress at lvl 50 with removed vet ranks

Brrrofski · October 2015

There are plenty of people questing from 50 to 16. 75% of my guild do it and I see plenty of people doing itvwhule I am.

You level up and take on the next zone with harder mobs. Use new mats to make new armor.

That's progression.

a.skelton92 · October 2015

Its a bloody stupid idea. For those that think it is unfair and makes you a god even if you are a bad player; i just this moment killed a vet 9 1v1 on my just turned level 10.

Be it him playing bad or me playing well, this shows that V ranks are not as 'god mode' as people say. Most people say vets are so strong even if they were rubbish they would still demolish low level players; well clearly not.

I think vet levels should stay, as someone who actually appreciates what an MMO stands for; any addition that allows for additional customisation is a good thing. I use getting demolished by a high vet high cp player as motivation and it excites me for what is yet to come and what I can look forward to.

Pallmor · October 2015

Cherryblossom · October 2015

My bet would be the Server's will be shut before Vet Ranks are removed.

so some time next year