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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
The (One and Only) Fatal Flaw of the Imperial City
Cathexis
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I think the patch is great, despite many critics, I think it brought a lot of much needed changes to the way the game is played and PvP is carried out.
Now, I definitely believe cloak is somewhat overpowered, that the cp system is heavily imbalanced, and that 1vZerg with heavy mobility nerfage is a bad combination. But none of these things completely ruin the game. PvP has victories and defeats -- and I dont think you or I would fundamentally want that any other way.
But, after a lot of time pvping and enjoying the imperial city, and buying up the VR15 sets, ultimately I have become faced with the fatal flaw I am sure you have all already come to realize.
As I move on into buying VR16 pieces, I am forced to face the reality that PvP is very high risk and has very little value.
Memorial district pay offs are bad. Maybe 50-100 per half hour.
Dailies are bad too. Only 320 stones from doing dailies.
Small group PvP is a lot of fun, but the time commitment relative to the number of stones gained is very small; small group ganking pulls in around 100-500 stones every 30 minutes to an hour +travel time to home base (I would say I average optimistically 200-300 per trip to the districts)
Meanwhile you can sewer grind 1000 TV +trophies in less than an hour off mobs with little risk of losing stones in a large group.
And that is the fatal flaw of the Imperial City DLC. Why would I bother fighting players and doing dailies when the payout is significantly smaller?
At present, there is minimal reason to engage in direct PvP beyond pure enjoyment.
At present direct PvP amasses AP with little to expend it on. Players can still spend AP on outdated vr14 sets, or outdated vr14 rewards from AP reward bags. This might mean something if the same items werent also provided in rewards for the worthy scaled to VR16 (which I have to admit are a lot better this patch, including purple quality, and don't get me wrong, I am thankful for them, that's great!). But setting aside rewards for the worthy, AP seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.
As for dailies, in Cyrodiil rewards were low, but completing dailies was a natural part of the PvP process. Dailies in the IC are, yes challenging, but are not only a time commitment, but expose you to the risk of being ganked as well.
To make matters worse, once proud PvP teams have been reduced to humiliatingly embarrassing tactics like camping a factions sewer ladders to rob players during loading screens and clogging the tunnels surrounding the entrances (I can only assume at horrible tel var to player ratios).
Something needs to be done to level the playing field between these play styles. Between PvP focused play and mob grinding PvE focused play.
There are some simple things that could be done -
The sets could still be available to buy with significant AP gains or stones, but TV stones should let you buy extras as well (potion supplies, rez stones, food supplies, crafting supplies etcetc). Now I know many will say that might ruin the risk involved in getting TV, but let's not forget that the sewer grinds, executed carefully, minimize threat to the occasional army v army stand off typically lasting only a few seconds.
Another alternative might be to reward kill streaks with a large bonus of TV stones. This would mean players would be juicier rewards, and rewards for PvP would be higher. Say... 500 stones every 10 killing blows. This might also mesh well with a reduction in the minimum number of stones required for the multipliers (although the bonus wouldn't be affected by this).
So what do you think? Agree? Disagree? Ideas?
Edited by Cathexis on 16 September 2015 08:36 Now, I definitely believe cloak is somewhat overpowered, that the cp system is heavily imbalanced, and that 1vZerg with heavy mobility nerfage is a bad combination. But none of these things completely ruin the game. PvP has victories and defeats -- and I dont think you or I would fundamentally want that any other way.
But, after a lot of time pvping and enjoying the imperial city, and buying up the VR15 sets, ultimately I have become faced with the fatal flaw I am sure you have all already come to realize.
As I move on into buying VR16 pieces, I am forced to face the reality that PvP is very high risk and has very little value.
Memorial district pay offs are bad. Maybe 50-100 per half hour.
Dailies are bad too. Only 320 stones from doing dailies.
Small group PvP is a lot of fun, but the time commitment relative to the number of stones gained is very small; small group ganking pulls in around 100-500 stones every 30 minutes to an hour +travel time to home base (I would say I average optimistically 200-300 per trip to the districts)
Meanwhile you can sewer grind 1000 TV +trophies in less than an hour off mobs with little risk of losing stones in a large group.
And that is the fatal flaw of the Imperial City DLC. Why would I bother fighting players and doing dailies when the payout is significantly smaller?
At present, there is minimal reason to engage in direct PvP beyond pure enjoyment.
At present direct PvP amasses AP with little to expend it on. Players can still spend AP on outdated vr14 sets, or outdated vr14 rewards from AP reward bags. This might mean something if the same items werent also provided in rewards for the worthy scaled to VR16 (which I have to admit are a lot better this patch, including purple quality, and don't get me wrong, I am thankful for them, that's great!). But setting aside rewards for the worthy, AP seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.
As for dailies, in Cyrodiil rewards were low, but completing dailies was a natural part of the PvP process. Dailies in the IC are, yes challenging, but are not only a time commitment, but expose you to the risk of being ganked as well.
To make matters worse, once proud PvP teams have been reduced to humiliatingly embarrassing tactics like camping a factions sewer ladders to rob players during loading screens and clogging the tunnels surrounding the entrances (I can only assume at horrible tel var to player ratios).
Something needs to be done to level the playing field between these play styles. Between PvP focused play and mob grinding PvE focused play.
There are some simple things that could be done -
The sets could still be available to buy with significant AP gains or stones, but TV stones should let you buy extras as well (potion supplies, rez stones, food supplies, crafting supplies etcetc). Now I know many will say that might ruin the risk involved in getting TV, but let's not forget that the sewer grinds, executed carefully, minimize threat to the occasional army v army stand off typically lasting only a few seconds.
Another alternative might be to reward kill streaks with a large bonus of TV stones. This would mean players would be juicier rewards, and rewards for PvP would be higher. Say... 500 stones every 10 killing blows. This might also mesh well with a reduction in the minimum number of stones required for the multipliers (although the bonus wouldn't be affected by this).
So what do you think? Agree? Disagree? Ideas?
Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/505262/adventures-in-ultra-ultrawide-an-ongoing-series
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
Ultrawide ESO Adventure Screenshots - 7680 x 1080 Resolution
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3
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Cthalion✭✭✭TLDR. Will later.
Related to something you mentioned however....
The whole mindless lemming respawning in the topside districts (memorial is the prime example) has to go.
It's very annoying to have the 2 guys I just dropped return to hump my leg, 10 seconds after they died, while I am still trying to finish off their buddy. It's mindless, consequences for failure (ie, horse ride, walking back, loss of stones, etc) or rewards for victory are nonexistent. Just... dorks respawning and dying dozens of times in 5 minutes. It makes topside districts somewhat boring. Just IMO.
Die in top districts should respawn in sewer base. Less Rambo-lemming-death charges please! It's actually preferred strategy for some. Reminds me of the old FC days, but far far worse. Blow your resources load, die, refill, repeat till enemy is worn down.Kosmoko.
Stamina NB since 4-4-14.2 -
Kas✭✭✭✭✭i make about 4-12k stones per hour (depending on how lucky i am with finding enemies) by going to the sewers and looking to kill enemy farmers. as long as you can solo 2-3 farmers, you can get more than enough stones.
i agree that the districts are flawed, though. respawn is too quick and you get caught in 0-reward fights all the time. more often than not, people aren't even worth AP anymore. just constantly dying, respawning, rushing into whatever is there. playing there feels extremely pointless
Edited by Kas on 16 September 2015 09:35@bbu - AD/EU
Kasiia - Templar (AR46)
Kasiir Aberion - Sorc (AR38)
Dr Kastafari - Warden (~AR31)
+ many others2 -
Cthalion✭✭✭i make about 4-12k stones per hour (depending on how lucky i am with finding enemies) by going to the sewers and looking to kill enemy farmers. as long as you can solo 2-3 farmers, you can get more than enough stones.
i agree that the districts are flawed, though. respawn is too quick and you get caught in 0-reward fights all the time. more often than not, people aren't even worth AP anymore. just constantly dying, respawning, rushing into whatever is there. playing there feels extremely pointless
Agreed 100000%. Glad I am not the only one that feels that way. Make them have to respawn in sewer base. It's still far less punishment than long horse ride or such. Completely reasonable fix right there, gg ZOS, pay me now.
Kosmoko.
Stamina NB since 4-4-14.3 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭TLDR. Will later.
Related to something you mentioned however....
The whole mindless lemming respawning in the topside districts (memorial is the prime example) has to go.
It's very annoying to have the 2 guys I just dropped return to hump my leg, 10 seconds after they died, while I am still trying to finish off their buddy. It's mindless, consequences for failure (ie, horse ride, walking back, loss of stones, etc) or rewards for victory are nonexistent. Just... dorks respawning and dying dozens of times in 5 minutes. It makes topside districts somewhat boring. Just IMO.
Die in top districts should respawn in sewer base. Less Rambo-lemming-death charges please! It's actually preferred strategy for some. Reminds me of the old FC days, but far far worse. Blow your resources load, die, refill, repeat till enemy is worn down.
@Cthalion @Kas
I disagree entirely. For one thing, all you are adding is a load screen since you can just use the base entrance to return to the spawn point.
Is it really necessary to have to wait for a load screen every time you die? The consequences for dieing are you lose 90% of your stones. Old forward camps were never a problem, they were a great thing. As long as your faction had AP to support a siege, you could siege a keep indefinitely. Why you would want to get rid of that I don't understand; if you don't like it just don't go there. If you want to play equine simulator in between fights, go back to Cyrodiil -- still lots of action there -- please don't impose the load screen simulator minigame on those of us who enjoy street fighting.
Also, a lot of people don't have the option of 1vX -- a decreasing number of builds support that function.
The problem is that players don't have any value when they engage each other in prolonged, high density pvp as in the memorial.
Edited by Cathexis on 16 September 2015 19:55Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
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tonemd✭✭✭✭TLDR. Will later.
Related to something you mentioned however....
The whole mindless lemming respawning in the topside districts (memorial is the prime example) has to go.
It's very annoying to have the 2 guys I just dropped return to hump my leg, 10 seconds after they died, while I am still trying to finish off their buddy. It's mindless, consequences for failure (ie, horse ride, walking back, loss of stones, etc) or rewards for victory are nonexistent. Just... dorks respawning and dying dozens of times in 5 minutes. It makes topside districts somewhat boring. Just IMO.
Die in top districts should respawn in sewer base. Less Rambo-lemming-death charges please! It's actually preferred strategy for some. Reminds me of the old FC days, but far far worse. Blow your resources load, die, refill, repeat till enemy is worn down.
If you're looking to be constructive with your time maybe you should not participate in those Memorial District fights. It serves no purpose to anyone. You're not gaining ground and you're not really gaining stones (compared to sewer grinds/ganks).
Personally, I jump into those fights because it basically the ESO version of Nuketown; just mindless killing and fun. You don't really "win" so why include a penalty for dying other than losing your stones?
0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭TLDR. Will later.
Related to something you mentioned however....
The whole mindless lemming respawning in the topside districts (memorial is the prime example) has to go.
It's very annoying to have the 2 guys I just dropped return to hump my leg, 10 seconds after they died, while I am still trying to finish off their buddy. It's mindless, consequences for failure (ie, horse ride, walking back, loss of stones, etc) or rewards for victory are nonexistent. Just... dorks respawning and dying dozens of times in 5 minutes. It makes topside districts somewhat boring. Just IMO.
Die in top districts should respawn in sewer base. Less Rambo-lemming-death charges please! It's actually preferred strategy for some. Reminds me of the old FC days, but far far worse. Blow your resources load, die, refill, repeat till enemy is worn down.
If you're looking to be constructive with your time maybe you should not participate in those Memorial District fights. It serves no purpose to anyone. You're not gaining ground and you're not really gaining stones (compared to sewer grinds/ganks).
Personally, I jump into those fights because it basically the ESO version of Nuketown; just mindless killing and fun. You don't really "win" so why include a penalty for dying other than losing your stones?
Agree.
Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
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Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TLDR. Will later.
Related to something you mentioned however....
The whole mindless lemming respawning in the topside districts (memorial is the prime example) has to go.
It's very annoying to have the 2 guys I just dropped return to hump my leg, 10 seconds after they died, while I am still trying to finish off their buddy. It's mindless, consequences for failure (ie, horse ride, walking back, loss of stones, etc) or rewards for victory are nonexistent. Just... dorks respawning and dying dozens of times in 5 minutes. It makes topside districts somewhat boring. Just IMO.
Die in top districts should respawn in sewer base. Less Rambo-lemming-death charges please! It's actually preferred strategy for some. Reminds me of the old FC days, but far far worse. Blow your resources load, die, refill, repeat till enemy is worn down.
If you're looking to be constructive with your time maybe you should not participate in those Memorial District fights. It serves no purpose to anyone. You're not gaining ground and you're not really gaining stones (compared to sewer grinds/ganks).
Personally, I jump into those fights because it basically the ESO version of Nuketown; just mindless killing and fun. You don't really "win" so why include a penalty for dying other than losing your stones?
Agree.
Also it's a quick way to figure out if your build is ready for pvp or your rotation need work.
It's a good pvp snack in the face.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The fatal flaw is that the new gear isn't worth grinding for.
I want v16 Ravager, morag tong, hawks eye, WITH JEWELRY!!
having only 3 endgame jewelry sets is ridiculous. Those sets are so boring.0 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »The fatal flaw is that the new gear isn't worth grinding for.
Since I hate grinding, for me that isn't really much of a flaw.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
Saltypretzels✭✭✭✭I like the pointless memorial fights.
Yes they are pointless to advance your character.
But it is fun to have fast moving action against other players and a chance to try out different things.
If this is the one place where it happens, we should let it happen.0