What is the DPS option for stamina Sword & Board again ??

EnOeZ · August 2015

Really hard to keep faith in ability development when your a Stamina DK PVP Tank these days, especially when you see the wonders sorcerers are getting patches after patches like in this video (from Deltia)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PnyuqXliOQ.

Nice and fun abilities passive recovery bonuses, heals by dpsing, etc...

DK is getting the lowest end of the Imperial City Patch, and Heavy Armor Melee PVP is just blatantly ignored patch after patch, especially if stamina.
Some clever development choices like stamina return on heavy attacks and change to the 2H Follow Up passives (previously 2x chance of weapon proc) highlight the fact that ZOS dev tem just don't care or don't play Melee Heavy Warrior in PVP, Stamina Flavour. To be clear, heavy attacks are just unrealistic in melee group PVP since you have to stop blocking, which you cannot or instantly die.

Not giving higher resource regeneration but lower (just sick) regen to heavy armor is also absurd. Other developers in other game, really playing Melee Warriors have understood that the burden of getting beaten much harder than any other play style, having to free from 10 times as much CCs than others and perform survival manoeuvers, REQUIRES you to have acces to MORE RESOURCES, not less (ex : Warrior in WOW, which uses "rage" a system that GIVES YOU resources when you get hit - something to learn from ZOS, same concept in Warhammer Online with BlackGuards). So in my point of view the Melee Warrior is not thought out, contrary to Sorcerers and Nightblades these days, where dev obviously play them.

Don't tell me there is a semi competent Melee PVP Warrior in the dev team with a voice, I will not believe that.
Well I am DK and perhaps, other classes have it easier in Heavy Armor, Stamina...

Which brings me to the last what the heck about the "Play the way you want, but not Heavy Armor, melee Stamina".
What is the DPS ability you are supposed to slot in order to hope to threaten a semi-competent someone in PVP if you are S/B Stamina ?

Neither low slah or puncture will do enough DPS and our ONLY class DPS ability, unstable flame (dot) is so weak that bubble sorcerers can just ignore the damage...

My question : what are we supposed to use to DPS and eventually kill a sorcerer as S/B ? at similar level of skill of course.

I don't want to say we need MOLTEN WHIP to be Stamina... since it is the only way in Magicka style, to burst down through bubbles

I have just have predicted everything and told you :
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/148711/1-6-pts-heavy-armor-feedback/p1

Don't want to say I am better theorycrafter thant your guys but...

So what is your stamina DPS option as sword and board that works, fellow DKs ?

Zsymon · August 2015

Weird question, since Sword and Shield is not a DPS option to begin with, you use dual wield or bow or twohanded for DPS. The guy in the video doesn't use Sword and Shield either.

EnOeZ · August 2015

Zsymon wrote: »

Weird question, since Sword and Shield is not a DPS option to begin with, you use dual wield or bow or twohanded for DPS. The guy in the video doesn't use Sword and Shield either.

Thx mate, but I know it is not oriented to DPS, you miss my point.
Magicka DK can still DPS thanks to magicka class abilities.

Where are the Stamina DPS class abilities for melee S/boarders aka Lava Whip Stamina morph, since as DK it's our only real "DPS" abilityn the other being a DOT that is nonthreatening.

VincentBlanquin · August 2015

agree completely. if you are newbie and try stamina sword and board you can do only one thing. Go for full defence, run around a tree a typing to the chat """ ha ha ha you cant kill me"""

there is nothing like balanced build, you either go full tank or nothing. Off course i dont expect be a killer, spam executes, but here is nothing stamina based, what do even mediocre damage. shame zenimax. mudcrab live under my shield in rumare

Dyride · August 2015

Uhm I can make Deep Slash hit pretty hard. And Heroic Slash plus Bloodspawn is crazy good for a DK. Lefty Lucy seems to heavy attack all the time just fine.

VincentBlanquin · August 2015

infracanisub17_ESO wrote: »

Uhm I can make Deep Slash hit pretty hard. And Heroic Slash plus Bloodspawn is crazy good for a DK. Lefty Lucy seems to heavy attack all the time just fine.

hm but lefty will be very well geared. If you try start new character now without cps, you will see

Zsymon · August 2015

Like Infra says, if you build for it you can make Deep Slash hit really hard, it is a very good and generally underused skill. An AoE snare, AoE Minor Maim (-15% damage done makes a gigantic difference) plus a ton of single target damage.

MmmmTofu · August 2015

When I was in non-vet PvP with my newly created DK, I find Deep Slash is pretty decent (yes, just decent). Very hard to score a kill with it (single target 3k damage with battle-leveling), but i think the point of that skill is the snare and reduced damage. Now I only wish DK's dots can behave like dots.

Tankqull · August 2015

EnOeZ wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Weird question, since Sword and Shield is not a DPS option to begin with, you use dual wield or bow or twohanded for DPS. The guy in the video doesn't use Sword and Shield either.

Thx mate, but I know it is not oriented to DPS, you miss my point.
Magicka DK can still DPS thanks to magicka class abilities.

Where are the Stamina DPS class abilities for melee S/boarders aka Lava Whip Stamina morph, since as DK it's our only real "DPS" abilityn the other being a DOT that is nonthreatening.

and? no one forces you to use stamina abilities in heavy armor its your choice. just use magica class abilities and be happy with your dps.

Rune_Relic · August 2015

I think the idea is you are supposed to win by outlasting everyone else.
You do les damage but absorb more damage to compensate.
Quite how you outlast anyone with no regen on block is another matter.

If they seriously buffed heavy armour to compensate I would understand.
So they buffed light armour 100%
#zosbalance

what you need to do evidently is CC everyone thats immune until you run out of resources and then die.

#AWarriorsLifeforMe

Rylana · August 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Weird question, since Sword and Shield is not a DPS option to begin with, you use dual wield or bow or twohanded for DPS. The guy in the video doesn't use Sword and Shield either.

Thx mate, but I know it is not oriented to DPS, you miss my point.
Magicka DK can still DPS thanks to magicka class abilities.

Where are the Stamina DPS class abilities for melee S/boarders aka Lava Whip Stamina morph, since as DK it's our only real "DPS" abilityn the other being a DOT that is nonthreatening.

and? no one forces you to use stamina abilities in heavy armor its your choice. just use magica class abilities and be happy with your dps.

I seriously dont get it when people equate survivability with permablock and stamina.

I mean stamina is helpful, but you dont have to be a stamina build exclusively to be ridiculously hard to drop, especially (id say particularly) with 1HS

heh my magicka DC DK has 14k stamina. One of the toughest tanks in my blue group. You tell me if stam is required.

Rune_Relic · August 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Weird question, since Sword and Shield is not a DPS option to begin with, you use dual wield or bow or twohanded for DPS. The guy in the video doesn't use Sword and Shield either.

Thx mate, but I know it is not oriented to DPS, you miss my point.
Magicka DK can still DPS thanks to magicka class abilities.

Where are the Stamina DPS class abilities for melee S/boarders aka Lava Whip Stamina morph, since as DK it's our only real "DPS" abilityn the other being a DOT that is nonthreatening.

and? no one forces you to use stamina abilities in heavy armor its your choice. just use magica class abilities and be happy with your dps.

Play as you want as long as its magicka build ?

21jws10 · August 2015

I'd like an NB Vampire with this weapon and heavy armor, a Vampire Knight esque thing so to speak, would look cool and have nice mitigation, especially with the upcoming patch.

Jormasaurus · August 2015

I think S&B is just fine as it is. As a stamina DK my heroic slash for example does about 5k base damage and almost up to 7k with buffs and Ravager proc. It is more than enough to dps someone down.

Tankqull · August 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Weird question, since Sword and Shield is not a DPS option to begin with, you use dual wield or bow or twohanded for DPS. The guy in the video doesn't use Sword and Shield either.

Thx mate, but I know it is not oriented to DPS, you miss my point.
Magicka DK can still DPS thanks to magicka class abilities.

Where are the Stamina DPS class abilities for melee S/boarders aka Lava Whip Stamina morph, since as DK it's our only real "DPS" abilityn the other being a DOT that is nonthreatening.

and? no one forces you to use stamina abilities in heavy armor its your choice. just use magica class abilities and be happy with your dps.

Play as you want as long as its magicka build ?

no play as you want but don´t expect it to be the BIS option...

otherwise i demand a farting-skilline my nord is drinking alc all the time so his farts must burn as hell...
S&B does deal a proper amount of dmg for the defensive weapon choise - some might allready say to much for the defense it provides.

Leandor · August 2015

Didn't we have that topic somewhere else yesterday? Ah, never mind.

Wasn't 1H&S designed to withstand damage? That "tank" thing where you would eat it and others would kill it? Isn't there a certain balance in that if you can do more defensively, you can do less offensively?

Never mind me. I think it's a bug that I have two weapon slots and can use a defensive and an offensive weapon alternating.

Snide, maybe, but that is my opinion.

EnOeZ · August 2015

Leandor wrote: »

Didn't we have that topic somewhere else yesterday? Ah, never mind.

Wasn't 1H&S designed to withstand damage? That "tank" thing where you would eat it and others would kill it? Isn't there a certain balance in that if you can do more defensively, you can do less offensively?

Never mind me. I think it's a bug that I have two weapon slots and can use a defensive and an offensive weapon alternating.

Snide, maybe, but that is my opinion.

Not a matter of less, but a matter of enough... for example against a shield stacking sorc.
For all understand we are to deliver less damage.

Emma_Overload · August 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I think the idea is you are supposed to win by outlasting everyone else.
You do les damage but absorb more damage to compensate.
Quite how you outlast anyone with no regen on block is another matter.

If they seriously buffed heavy armour to compensate I would understand.
So they buffed light armour 100%
#zosbalance

what you need to do evidently is CC everyone thats immune until you run out of resources and then die.
#AWarriorsLifeforMe

LOL, please don't drag Light Armor into this... it was like PAPER before, and it's still not that great now.

Leandor · August 2015

EnOeZ wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Didn't we have that topic somewhere else yesterday? Ah, never mind.

Wasn't 1H&S designed to withstand damage? That "tank" thing where you would eat it and others would kill it? Isn't there a certain balance in that if you can do more defensively, you can do less offensively?

Never mind me. I think it's a bug that I have two weapon slots and can use a defensive and an offensive weapon alternating.

Snide, maybe, but that is my opinion.

Not a matter of less, but a matter of enough... for example against a shield stacking sorc.
For all understand we are to deliver less damage.

I just still think of the rock-paper-scissor approach... The shield bearer is the counter to the ganker, because he doesn't need much damage after he survived the burst. The shield stacker is the counter to the shield bearer because he can just ignore the damage shield-bearer does. The ganker is the counter to the shield stacker, since he can burst through the shields.

I am aware that this is a highly idealized view, but it is the principle behind my view.

EnOeZ · August 2015

Jormasaurus wrote: »

I think S&B is just fine as it is. As a stamina DK my heroic slash for example does about 5k base damage and almost up to 7k with buffs and Ravager proc. It is more than enough to dps someone down.

Heroic Slash Only, without assist you kill someone like a shield staking sorcerer or a healing templar ? I mean not on an AFK player ? Against competent VR14 player ?

The only way I can do reliably that is shield bash for CC + slash + unstable blame and/or fiery breath when the two dots are not cleansed (3 to 4 abilities). Whereas a magicka DK can invade (or other stun/root) + Molten Whip (2 abilities) for a faster and more reliable result.

AudioVortex · August 2015

None?

I'd say a combination with class skills as I use S&B but only have invasion, my dps is all class and various other skill lines. I don't see much point exploring any other S&B skill unless maybe defensive stance if I was going to go real tanky like.

21jws10 · August 2015

Lots and lots of debuffs, I think the skilline gives you fracture, maim and even defile.. This is a pain, they seem all so useful, I feel I have to slot them all.. Which would you sacrifice? Defensive stance can be funny sometimes.

Rune_Relic · August 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I think the idea is you are supposed to win by outlasting everyone else.
You do les damage but absorb more damage to compensate.
Quite how you outlast anyone with no regen on block is another matter.

If they seriously buffed heavy armour to compensate I would understand.
So they buffed light armour 100%
#zosbalance

what you need to do evidently is CC everyone thats immune until you run out of resources and then die.
#AWarriorsLifeforMe

LOL, please don't drag Light Armor into this... it was like PAPER before, and it's still not that great now.

Meh... you used damage shields anyway not your armour. lol.

Jormasaurus · August 2015

Why would anyone in their right mind try heroic slashing someone to death? Of course I use DoTs and CCs along with heroic slash and the ocasional Executioner from my 2H bar. My point was that it's possible to use S&B as your primary dps source. Of course it's not going to hit as hard as a 2H, that's because you get the awesome defensive perks from using a shield.

21jws10 · August 2015

I think it's more dependant on playstyle, survivability is spot on with sword and board, combat usually lasts longer and kills feel more rewarding (for me anyway).