RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Welcome back Tiberious!

Im not sure AOE cap changes or anything is is going to fix it.

Paul Sage, The Former Creative Director for ESO who has left the company had this to say back in March:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance#latest

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking.

Sage pretty much told us its the game client and server software itself, it scales poorly(Hence the game code performs poorly with many players in the same place), and removing AOE caps isn't going to fix it, and adding more server hardware won't fix it either. The solution is re-writing the entire core server and client software. The game was rushed out the door last April and wasn't ready to be released, yet it was put out anyway and is a big reason the game had such a hard launch.

Matt Firor told us back in March of 2014 in an interview with the Examiner that the pvp population was capped at 1,800 players total.

http://www.examiner.com/article/elder-scrolls-online-pvp-player-limit-checks-at-1800-for-cryodiil-campaign

We will have two megaservers – one for North American players, and one for European players, although you will be able to create characters on both if you wish. The game's PvP area (Cyrodiil) has a population limit of about 1800 players per campaign, but we'll have many campaigns running simultaneously - Matt Firor

They have since lowered the population caps(Twice if im not mistaken) in Cyrodiil and it has done nothing to fix the problems.

Even the PTS right now is laggy and there isn't even a quarter of the players on it that there is on live.

I don't think there is a fix, and if they could patch it out im sure they would have by now.

As Aco512 alluded to, some of the changes in 1.7 may actually make it worse.

I'll wait and see what the final 1.7 patch brings, but going on past history, im not getting my hopes up.

I'll still pray to Talos we get a miracle in 1.7 and the red ping lag is a thing of the past.

Sorry but this is the second time you've posted that AOE caps have nothing to do with it while putting forth a quote that does nothing to back up your point. The reason they are reducing LoS checks is because of the unnecessary calculations on the server side which causes lag. The introduction of their AoE cap system only added more calculations on the server side, so I fail to see how you say that it doesn't cause any lag...

Do you actually have something where a ZoS employee says AoE caps don't affect lag, or is this just your opinion based on something related to framerates?

I think your misunderstanding what I was trying to say and what Paul Sage was trying to tell us.

Paul Sage is talking about "Scaling" in that quote. Not to get into a long drawn out post, but think of it in these terms:

Right now, each campaign allows more players to enter it then the server can actually handle under load. This is proven because once a large group of players start fighting over something performance suffers, these performance drops are of varying degrees, sometimes its mild, sometimes it red ping unplayable depending on conditions.

The introduction of their new AOE cap system only made the existing lag that was already there worse...1.5 and 1.4 both hard considerable lag, lag infact that drove so many players away that it went B2P.

Removing the AOE cap and these LOS checks may help alleviate some of the symptoms, but it probably won't solve the root of the problem.

The only way they will ever get lag and server performance down to acceotable levels is to cull back the pop caps on the campaign to a number they know for a fact it can handle...that means monitoring performance, drawing up charts, measuring curves, and finding that sweet spot where max players = acceptable latency and then cappping the campiagns at that number - 10-20 depending on available information to make that decision.

If ZOS can't find these numbers, or don't have anyone on staff with the Anaylst experience, then they need to hire a System's Analyst from outside the company to come in contract and do this research for them.

Bottom line is i'd rather have 30v30 fights with acceptable latency then the utter garbage i saw on Azura''s last night at Fort Ash where pretty much no meteors were going off at all that i could see or hear yet latency was in the red until the 60+ on each side were done fighting at the mine...yes AD had a large blob there, but DC had an equally large one as well and its unfair to blame each side, its ZOS allowing more players then the server can handle into campaigns that is the root of the problem.

ZOS either needs re-write the code to fix the scaling or cap the campaigns to numbers the server can handle....there is a reason 2 bars on each faction in campaigns rarely have any lag...Thornblade when Moijican was Emp and later Fluffy, the first week and a half of that campaign was 2 bars at prime time for each faction, and lag was non-existent even in the huge dethrone fight at Robeck where all 3 factions were fighting there was no red ping or lag at all, no one in my group nor anyone else had issues using their abilities.....There were numerous big time fights there too, and the server was able to handle it because it was only 2 bars per faction, that seems to be the sweet spot for performance vs numbers...i have yet to see a pop locked campaign in this game that didn't suffer from unbearable lag.

its just my 2 cents in my experiences. I just think the pop caps are too high and the server software simply can't handle it. its just my thoughts, nothing more. if these changes in 1.7 don't fix it, i think ZOS needs to seriously consider culling things back.

I agree with you that the AoE caps aren't the sole source of the issue, but in the other thread and this as well though to a lesser extent you said it had nothing to do with performance in Cyrodil, which is what I took issue with. While scaling and such is a large issue, the amount of calculations that have to go through the server certainly don't help which is why there has been such a large movement of people asking them to remove them.

I don't know if I agree that they need to cut back on population caps, I think they have a bunch of other options that need to be tested first and this is a last resort. Revert the lighting patch, the botting code, AoE caps, etc. That would really make Cyrodil into Horse Simulator. If absolutely none of that works to get the lag to an acceptable place, then I suppose reducing population caps again would be acceptable, but I think PvP would be dead for even more people at that point.

Also running two raids plus right now is absolutely reckless and inexcusable. TKO and/or Rangers doing that last night was a pile of cow poo, it ruins the campaign for everyone else.

Agreed! I ahve always wondered if that anti-botting code or those lighting changes somehow messed up the client and server software scaling creating this whole mess.

It would be nice if ZOS would just remove those things for a few days and see what the performance differences were. It would be interesting to see the outcome.

Jules wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

TiberiusTryton wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

its the amount of AOE caused by the amount of people in one area leading to calculations being too much. One thing that could help is aoe cap removal. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/133304/aoe-cap-removal/p3 - bump this or this http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p37 - maybe we can get their attention!

Without a "CAP" on AOE doesn't that mean the game has to calculate even more players to take damage at one time? Wasn't this the way it was before during the Vamp DK vs ALL days?

@TiberiusTryton
Right now, the cap produces so much more calculations and lag. Right now, the aoe calc is -> is there a person in range -> is he one of the 6 closest people -> if so give him 100% damage -> if not, is he part of the next 24 people? -> if yes, give him 50% damage -> if no, is he part of the next 30 people? -> if yes, give him 25% damage -> if not, he shouldnt get any damage. Thats the calculation process the current system has one aoe go through.

Now imagine that process with 50-60 people at the same time, with 1-2 aoe attacks every second from every person. And this is without healing calculations or tracking dots or tracking debuffs.

Now if there were no aoe caps, this would be the calculation. Is there a player in range of the aoe? -> if yes, do the damage -> if no, dont. How much simplier does this sound?

With the new ulti system, you cant be a vamp DK god because back in the day, ulti was genned from dots/CC/attacks/crits etc and hence with uncapped talons, it was a burning talon for ult. Now its, use ulti, wait a minute for it to come again unless you kill and have passives etc.

Good luck to people grouping up into a nice tight stack when one DK could invasion into you and root your entire raid and then the DK's group could just hit you.
or if a NB used a prox det with a soul tether combo and insta wiped your entire raid coz you were bunched
or if a sorc streaked through your entire group and stunned them all
or if a DK stam build, leaped and CCed your entire group and did a steel tornado to kill them all
or if a templar.... he could..... heal them to death?

People would be forced to spread or suffer having no mobility and the possibility to wipe. This would give tanks a actual duty, to go in deep and apply CC, apply dots, apply snare on full enemy forces and make himself the target. DPS would have to build for some survivability if they are melee or else stay at range which is always less damage. Healers would have to spread and provide healing for their full group and give them responsilibity then just BoL spam (i know thats not it and there is more to it).

Doesnt that type of game sound more diverse, more interesting, more strategic, more having to manage group composition, etc.?

Not to mention, ZOS has now nerfed damage in 1.7. This means that fights will last longer. Which means more AoE needs to be used. Which means more calculations need to happen in a small area. Which means more constant lag.

This is one of the most inclusive and informative comments I've ever read on these forums, and I've read a lot.
All of what you said was dead on. Ty for taking the time.

aco5712 wrote: »

FluffiestOne wrote: »

You guy's are beating a dead horse. We don't need to remove aoe caps...

We need to add ground oil.

-Fluffy 2016 Presidential Speech

like i said before, you need to have a solution that doesnt empower the zerg. Ground oil can make things worse.

Minno wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

FluffiestOne wrote: »

You guy's are beating a dead horse. We don't need to remove aoe caps...

We need to add ground oil.

-Fluffy 2016 Presidential Speech

like i said before, you need to have a solution that doesnt empower the zerg. Ground oil can make things worse.

There may or may not be sarcasm in his post lol

FluffiestOne wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

FluffiestOne wrote: »

You guy's are beating a dead horse. We don't need to remove aoe caps...

We need to add ground oil.

-Fluffy 2016 Presidential Speech

like i said before, you need to have a solution that doesnt empower the zerg. Ground oil can make things worse.

Look here's how it goes.

Zerg ball goes into back flag.

6 oils pour

50k instant damage

zerg wipes

lag is gone

the end

kappa

aco5712 wrote: »

Now if there were no aoe caps, this would be the calculation. Is there a player in range of the aoe? -> if yes, do the damage -> if no, dont. How much simplier does this sound?

aco5712 wrote: »

or if a templar.... he could..... heal them to death?

TiberiusTryton wrote: »

It is not even when there are tons of fights... I am basically living next to the servers and 20v20 is causing so much lag that I usually just walk away and siege the wall....

TiberiusTryton wrote: »

Oh wait no because siege won't work during lag...