Thoughts on Werewolf and PvP?

cjthibs · June 2015

So...I've brought this up in the Developer discussion forum, but it doesn't seem to get much attention from PvP players.

As of now, is the general consensus that Werewolf is only useful for the passive Stam Regen?

I can remember when WW had just been updated seeing quite a few Werewolves out in Cyrodiil, and having quite a bit of fun with it myself, but I can't recall seeing anyone transformed in many several weeks, perhaps months.

From my own experience, the timer mechanic basically makes this non-viable in Cyrodiil since eating every 30 seconds makes us extremely vulnerable, even helpless, should we choose to devour. On top of that, with the removal of most (all?) critters from Cyrodiil, running off to eat an animal is not an option and most players will immediately release if a WW is nearby.

Are there any alternate strategies to make WW viable in PvP that I am perhaps missing?

In my opinion, WW should work similar to Overload, but I believe we've been told that's never going to happen, correct?

Anyway, as mostly a PvP-player, I'd really like to be able to actually use this skill line, but I'm at a loss.

(And I won't even get into the pitfalls of attempting to RP a WW in its current form.)

Kobaal · June 2015

people use it mostly for the passives. No one like getting Evil Huntered for like 20k lol

cjthibs · June 2015

You mean the one passive?
All the rest are useless unless you transform.

I get that there are vulnerabilities, but it doesn't make sense that vampires are so much more viable than Werewolves.
(I don't count just having it for the passives as actually being a Werewolf.)

Strider_Roshin · June 2015

Yeah they're easy kills in PvP. For one, as soon as you transform your have everyone's attention, and anyone with a bow can make quick work out of any werewolf.

JDar · June 2015

It's obtusely implemented because there is no reason not to have the passive. I have it too but I never use any werewolf skills. Like the way the implemented vampire in the early days, it's an abomination to the lore and is just another easy shortcut for players to get a cheap bonus.

They finally realized this and with vampire you actually have to make a decision based on your playstyle. They should do that with werewolf and make Fighter's Guild passives do something to anyone with Lycanthropy, even not in werewolf form.

Lore-wise it's stupid that Cyrodiil is being fought over by people who are all werewolves, but that is what is happening.

cjthibs · June 2015

Ehh...they're all werewolves in the same way that my character is a master mage.

I've maxed the skill line but the only skill I actually put a point into was the Persuasion one.d

Rather than make it even less worthwhile, why can't we push to make it something some of us can use, and enjoy using?

cozmon3c_ESO · June 2015

no one uses werewolf in pvp because when you transform you are instantly targeted by everyone, its like a huge beacon of getting wtf pwned.

Chrlynsch · June 2015

There are several issues that need to be addressed in PVP for the werewolf.

1. Problem We take extra damage from transforming. This is from fighters guild passives, abilities, and poison damage. Yet we gain no survivability.
Solution give us some sort of mitigation. Double our armor and spell resistance, give us a passive dodge chance, or a flat damage mitigation.

2. Problem it's an ultimate? Werewolf ultimate strips away your class and weapon passives (4 skill line passives stripped away and only one added) and replaces it a handful of makeshift passives. It runs on a timer with no real benefits.
Solution Take away the time at least for staying in form, take away the ultimate cost. Put a cooldown (30 sec) on transforming to prevent invulnerable fear bombs. The timer now acts as a buff timer to our regeneration and weapon damage. Make us want to feed rather than need to.

3. Problem free 15% stam regen...
Solution Require having the ultimate slotted on at least one of your bars at the very least. Personally I would have Werewolf unremovable from at least one of your bars and if you ever got max ultimate would force your transformation. Curse or blessing you are a werewolf.

4. Problem Strong in human, weak in werewolf form.
Solution nerf our weakness but add it to both forms. 20% weakness to poison and fighters guild abilities/passives will keep us in check.

5. Problem We are supposed to be the best hunters, yet we have no detection aid/ or ability to sneak.
Solution Let us prowl/sneak possibly add a detection aid to one of our passives.

6. Problem Can't synergize
Solution fix it.. seriously

Lolimsopro · June 2015

All werevolves i fought got their butt kicked.
Even vets, and i was around lvl 25-30 at that time.

FlounderOG · June 2015

I use the werewolf as an "oh crap i need to get closer and pound this guy before he kills me" skill.

Rarely do I bust it out during open combat unless its 1 or 2 guys and they're getting swarmed. The other times I use it is when I look over a hill to see a sea of red or yellow, ill do rapid and werewolf to run as far as I can as fast as I can and hope I dont get snared.

So really its a last resort, not good for regular attacking.

Smuggles · June 2015

I would like to use werewolf as well, but we all know it just isn't viable. I do use it in pve occasionally because it is fun. @Prothwata actually has some great ideas; I just don't see much attention from the devs on this. @FlounderOG the leap from DK is much better in that particular instance.

Edited for autocorrect

FlounderOG · June 2015

Maybe, but I prefer nightblade and templar characters over DKs.

And this is usually when Im running out of stamina and magica, so the the run speed and heavy light attacks from werewolf is attractive.

Al'Ro'Kent · July 2015

Prothwata wrote: »

There are several issues that need to be addressed in PVP for the werewolf.

1. Problem We take extra damage from transforming. This is from fighters guild passives, abilities, and poison damage. Yet we gain no survivability.
Solution give us some sort of mitigation. Double our armor and spell resistance, give us a passive dodge chance, or a flat damage mitigation.

2. Problem it's an ultimate? Werewolf ultimate strips away your class and weapon passives (4 skill line passives stripped away and only one added) and replaces it a handful of makeshift passives. It runs on a timer with no real benefits.
Solution Take away the time at least for staying in form, take away the ultimate cost. Put a cooldown (30 sec) on transforming to prevent invulnerable fear bombs. The timer now acts as a buff timer to our regeneration and weapon damage. Make us want to feed rather than need to.

3. Problem free 15% stam regen...
Solution Require having the ultimate slotted on at least one of your bars at the very least. Personally I would have Werewolf unremovable from at least one of your bars and if you ever got max ultimate would force your transformation. Curse or blessing you are a werewolf.

4. Problem Strong in human, weak in werewolf form.
Solution nerf our weakness but add it to both forms. 20% weakness to poison and fighters guild abilities/passives will keep us in check.

5. Problem We are supposed to be the best hunters, yet we have no detection aid/ or ability to sneak.
Solution Let us prowl/sneak possibly add a detection aid to one of our passives.

6. Problem Can't synergize
Solution fix it.. seriously

THIS. Except maybe not the forced transform everytime you gain enough ultimate. But totally a forced one at full moon. Or maybe a thing like a blood moon happens, and all the werewolves become stronger but can't untrasform

EDIT: I found werewolf in PVE amazing. The one time I got into PVP(and it didn't lag me out) I killed some guys who were 11 levels above me

So its kinda viable, but the timer SUCKS. FIX IT ZENIMAX!!!!!!!!!!!

Snit · July 2015

Expert Hunter is a very popular skill now. Many stam specs have it on their main bar, due to the crit bonus and the nice combination with caltrops. Transforming just alerts them to refresh the buff and target you.

cjthibs · July 2015

Snit wrote: »

Expert Hunter is a very popular skill now. Many stam specs have it on their main bar, due to the crit bonus and the nice combination with caltrops. Transforming just alerts them to refresh the buff and target you.

I decided to give this another shot last night...threw on full heavy armor with a more regen-y spec...and guess what...

On the very first pounce after transforming, I was dead before the animation even finished.

Uber viable.

TBois · July 2015

ZOS should make it a toggle like the Overload sorc ultimate. Not being able to control when you can get out of WW form for to access your good heals and active defenses when needed is why I think WW isn't viable in pvp.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · July 2015

Prothwata wrote: »

There are several issues that need to be addressed in PVP for the werewolf.

1. Problem We take extra damage from transforming. This is from fighters guild passives, abilities, and poison damage. Yet we gain no survivability.
Solution give us some sort of mitigation. Double our armor and spell resistance, give us a passive dodge chance, or a flat damage mitigation.

2. Problem it's an ultimate? Werewolf ultimate strips away your class and weapon passives (4 skill line passives stripped away and only one added) and replaces it a handful of makeshift passives. It runs on a timer with no real benefits.
Solution Take away the time at least for staying in form, take away the ultimate cost. Put a cooldown (30 sec) on transforming to prevent invulnerable fear bombs. The timer now acts as a buff timer to our regeneration and weapon damage. Make us want to feed rather than need to.

3. Problem free 15% stam regen...
Solution Require having the ultimate slotted on at least one of your bars at the very least. Personally I would have Werewolf unremovable from at least one of your bars and if you ever got max ultimate would force your transformation. Curse or blessing you are a werewolf.

4. Problem Strong in human, weak in werewolf form.
Solution nerf our weakness but add it to both forms. 20% weakness to poison and fighters guild abilities/passives will keep us in check.

5. Problem We are supposed to be the best hunters, yet we have no detection aid/ or ability to sneak.
Solution Let us prowl/sneak possibly add a detection aid to one of our passives.

6. Problem Can't synergize
Solution fix it.. seriously

This, this, this, and this. ^^^^

And when you're done with that, even more this. ^^^^

CP5 · July 2015

Aside from most of the above post being very accurate and in need of attention I will add this, werewolf is okish when taking down people who try to just turtle or don't know what they're doing, when you feel like changing things up. Unless there's a sniper waiting to launch a lethal arrow your way...

SirAndy · July 2015

I saw someone transform last night but i think he might have just panicked and used the wrong skill bar because we had him cornered and he was trying to get away.

Needles to say, we had some fun with him ...

heystreethawk · July 2015

JDar wrote: »

Lore-wise it's stupid that Cyrodiil is being fought over by people who are all werewolves, but that is what is happening.

I dunno, man; how would the historians know if the war was fought entirely by werewolves if said lycanthropes never transformed and never got knocked down by a dawnbreaker whilst in yonder human mode? This could be a hundo percent lore abiding we just wouldn't know

Ace_SiN · July 2015

WW have survivability and sustain issues, but most of these posts must be from a zerg pov. WW shines the most in small scale fights, although when to use it is key to being successful with it. You can transform into WW and 0tk someone before they even have a chance to react to the transformation fear. It's always funny to watch people stare at their death recap when they go from full to dead so quickly(I've hit other vets and known pvpers for up to 20k with the opening Howl of Agony while wearing the Salvation set..).

WW DPS is insane. You're basically spitting out ranged instant cast Wrecking Blows. Its survivability is trash tier though. You get a whopping 1% extra damage mitigation(when you transform) and a garbage heal with a high cost(at the expense of your versatility). This means you either kill your opponent quickly or the fight turns in their favor. The squishy nature of WW and the garbage sustain is why you never stay in the transformation for long, as you increase your risk of dying. That's why I think any skill that increases WW time is largely useless(the on hit timer increase passive is ok I guess).

in short: The correct way to play WW in PvP is more like "Suprise mfer I'm a WW!!" instead of "Hey look at me guys I'm a WW!".

leepalmer95 · July 2015

Ace_SiN wrote: »

WW have survivability and sustain issues, but most of these posts must be from a zerg pov. WW shines the most in small scale fights, although when to use it is key to being successful with it. You can transform into WW and 0tk someone before they even have a chance to react to the transformation fear. It's always funny to watch people stare at their death recap when they go from full to dead so quickly(I've hit other vets and known pvpers for up to 20k with the opening Howl of Agony while wearing the Salvation set..).

WW DPS is insane. You're basically spitting out ranged instant cast Wrecking Blows. Its survivability is trash tier though. You get a whopping 1% extra damage mitigation(when you transform) and a garbage heal with a high cost(at the expense of your versatility). This means you either kill your opponent quickly or the fight turns in their favor. The squishy nature of WW and the garbage sustain is why you never stay in the transformation for long, as you increase your risk of dying. That's why I think any skill that increases WW time is largely useless(the on hit timer increase passive is ok I guess).

in short: The correct way to play WW in PvP is more like "Suprise mfer I'm a WW!!" instead of "Hey look at me guys I'm a WW!".

Soon as they transform i 1 hit them with flawless dawnbreaker though. even a poison injection cancelled with a heavy attack takes like 50% hp.

Waylander · July 2015

I get cheers when I go WW in pvp.

Then I get a Rez.

DPS is insane though. Small group play it shines.

Add radiant to abilities that instagib you though.

TBois · July 2015

Ace_SiN wrote: »

WW have survivability and sustain issues, but most of these posts must be from a zerg pov. WW shines the most in small scale fights, although when to use it is key to being successful with it. You can transform into WW and 0tk someone before they even have a chance to react to the transformation fear. It's always funny to watch people stare at their death recap when they go from full to dead so quickly(I've hit other vets and known pvpers for up to 20k with the opening Howl of Agony while wearing the Salvation set..).

WW DPS is insane. You're basically spitting out ranged instant cast Wrecking Blows. Its survivability is trash tier though. You get a whopping 1% extra damage mitigation(when you transform) and a garbage heal with a high cost(at the expense of your versatility). This means you either kill your opponent quickly or the fight turns in their favor. The squishy nature of WW and the garbage sustain is why you never stay in the transformation for long, as you increase your risk of dying. That's why I think any skill that increases WW time is largely useless(the on hit timer increase passive is ok I guess).

in short: The correct way to play WW in PvP is more like "Suprise mfer I'm a WW!!" instead of "Hey look at me guys I'm a WW!".

This is why I don't have any points in the passives that extend time in WW form and why I think they should make it a toggle ultimate like overload. Seems like a simple fix to make WW a lot more viable.

Ezareth · July 2015

I had two skilled players who normally would have given me a fight corner me outside of Alessia a couple months ago on my sorc. Then they both transformed into WWs and I made short work of them. I is almost laughable how easy it is to kill Werewolves. They do some good damage but if you understand their limitations they just die very quickly.

That's why no one transforms. I I think I've only transformed once outside of the initial questline and that was more of a taunt to someone than actually planning on using it.

Ara_Valleria · July 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

I had two skilled players who normally would have given me a fight corner me outside of Alessia a couple months ago on my sorc. Then they both transformed into WWs and I made short work of them. I is almost laughable how easy it is to kill Werewolves. They do some good damage but if you understand their limitations they just die very quickly.

That's why no one transforms. I I think I've only transformed once outside of the initial questline and that was more of a taunt to someone than actually planning on using it.

You transformed once outside of the initial questline ?
wow.
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