Suggestion for a zerg busting skill for PvP

kojou · July 2015

I would like @ZOS to add Gamyne Bandu's (Veteran Fungal Grotto) death beam skill to either Undaunted or the Alliance Assault skill line.

If you haven't run Veteran Fungal Grotto Basically she casts a beam between two players and the two players need to stay away from each other for a few seconds to avoid damage. If they don't they both lose health until one dies and the other is quite depleted of health.

Any thoughts?

NotSo · July 2015

Just remove the giant, red no-no circle from siege.

kojou · July 2015

NotSo wrote: »

Just remove the giant, red no-no circle from siege.

Or add a "deer in the headlights" fear affect to those in the circle.

Leandor · July 2015

More damage is not the solution to break up zergs. Proven time and again by all changes that have been made so far. Partial Aoe-cap removal? Zergs got stronger. Magicka detonation? Zerg is the only strategy to make sure it doesn't kill people. Stop suggesting that some other mechanic of doing damage will help this, it won't.

Zergs laugh at that kind of deathray. Barrier, heal, move to caster or out of LOS, problem solved. Whatever you do to increase the damage output, the zerg will reap it thousandfold because every indiviual player will have access to it.

kojou · July 2015

Leandor wrote: »

More damage is not the solution to break up zergs. Proven time and again by all changes that have been made so far. Partial Aoe-cap removal? Zergs got stronger. Magicka detonation? Zerg is the only strategy to make sure it doesn't kill people. Stop suggesting that some other mechanic of doing damage will help this, it won't.

Zergs laugh at that kind of deathray. Barrier, heal, move to caster or out of LOS, problem solved. Whatever you do to increase the damage output, the zerg will reap it thousandfold because every indiviual player will have access to it.

Except in this case the skill forces the players affected to spread out or die. It is not a LOS caster thing, but a LOS between the 2 players affected thing. The more players affected the more that have to spread out, so I think it would be interesting to see 2 zergs use it on each other.

Leandor · July 2015

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

More damage is not the solution to break up zergs. Proven time and again by all changes that have been made so far. Partial Aoe-cap removal? Zergs got stronger. Magicka detonation? Zerg is the only strategy to make sure it doesn't kill people. Stop suggesting that some other mechanic of doing damage will help this, it won't.

Zergs laugh at that kind of deathray. Barrier, heal, move to caster or out of LOS, problem solved. Whatever you do to increase the damage output, the zerg will reap it thousandfold because every indiviual player will have access to it.

Except in this case the skill forces the players affected to spread out or die. It is not a LOS caster thing, but a LOS between the 2 players affected thing. The more players affected the more that have to spread out, so I think it would be interesting to see 2 zergs use it on each other.

Wrong. A zerg is able to provide 10'000 or more HPS in healing, in addition to multiple barriers (each eats 20'000 damage per individual player and is up again before its your turn in the rotation again). The only way to make a zerg buster skill based on damage would be to have a skill that causes sufficient damage to one-shot the entire zerg. And honestly? As much as I hate the zergs (or "highly skilled guild groups with coordinated use of all game provided possibilities"), having this would instakill the game.

Forestd16b14_ESO · July 2015

Well the magic detonation was suppost to be the "zerg buster" but as you can see it didn't work.

JTorus · July 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well the magic detonation was suppost to be the "zerg buster" but as you can see it didn't work.

I believe Eric Wrobel stated that they're making changes to it. Where it will compound in damage as it hits more targets.

Leandor · July 2015

JTorus wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well the magic detonation was suppost to be the "zerg buster" but as you can see it didn't work.

I believe Eric Wrobel stated that they're making changes to it. Where it will compound in damage as it hits more targets.

Again a patchwork fix. The only thing this will result in is that the person with inevitable has to move away from the zerg to be ressed 4 seconds later. That will mean there will be less zergs, since it actually will require a modicum of attention by the zerglings, but those unable to do this were not a problem anyways.

Proximity carriers will be killed before the explosion goes off due to massive AoE spamming prevalent anyways. Either that or they won't hit enough players to make a difference.

ToRelax · July 2015

Leandor wrote: »

JTorus wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well the magic detonation was suppost to be the "zerg buster" but as you can see it didn't work.

I believe Eric Wrobel stated that they're making changes to it. Where it will compound in damage as it hits more targets.

Again a patchwork fix. The only thing this will result in is that the person with inevitable has to move away from the zerg to be ressed 4 seconds later. That will mean there will be less zergs, since it actually will require a modicum of attention by the zerglings, but those unable to do this were not a problem anyways.

Proximity carriers will be killed before the explosion goes off due to massive AoE spamming prevalent anyways. Either that or they won't hit enough players to make a difference.

Uhm, no. They won't be able to see who has the Detonation on them, not to mention they can't do anything against getting hit by Proximity Detonation.
The only question is wether ZOS will make that skill hit hard enough to make a difference. If I recall correctly, they said they'd reduce the base damage, so as I know ZOS the skill would deal barely more damage than it currently does when you hit a full raid, but a lot less otherwise.
We'll just wait and see.

JTorus · July 2015

Leandor wrote: »

JTorus wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well the magic detonation was suppost to be the "zerg buster" but as you can see it didn't work.

I believe Eric Wrobel stated that they're making changes to it. Where it will compound in damage as it hits more targets.

Again a patchwork fix. The only thing this will result in is that the person with inevitable has to move away from the zerg to be ressed 4 seconds later. That will mean there will be less zergs, since it actually will require a modicum of attention by the zerglings, but those unable to do this were not a problem anyways.

Proximity carriers will be killed before the explosion goes off due to massive AoE spamming prevalent anyways. Either that or they won't hit enough players to make a difference.

If it does mean that even just one person detaches themselves from the zerg train, then the ability is instantly effective. Play that scenario out a little further, you would need need as little as one quarter of the zerg with inevitable-det on them to disrupt their maneuvering 6 people could derail a 24 member zerg group. Not to mention if they're near NPC's.

As for people who chose the Prox-det morph, between stealth, pots, and gap closers, it's easy to remain survivable before you allahu akbar the zerg.

If it threatens to hit at least as hard as siege does, people will get out of it.

Leandor · July 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

JTorus wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well the magic detonation was suppost to be the "zerg buster" but as you can see it didn't work.

I believe Eric Wrobel stated that they're making changes to it. Where it will compound in damage as it hits more targets.

Again a patchwork fix. The only thing this will result in is that the person with inevitable has to move away from the zerg to be ressed 4 seconds later. That will mean there will be less zergs, since it actually will require a modicum of attention by the zerglings, but those unable to do this were not a problem anyways.

Proximity carriers will be killed before the explosion goes off due to massive AoE spamming prevalent anyways. Either that or they won't hit enough players to make a difference.

Uhm, no. They won't be able to see who has the Detonation on them, not to mention they can't do anything against getting hit by Proximity Detonation.
The only question is wether ZOS will make that skill hit hard enough to make a difference. If I recall correctly, they said they'd reduce the base damage, so as I know ZOS the skill would deal barely more damage than it currently does when you hit a full raid, but a lot less otherwise.
We'll just wait and see.

Well, I disagree. For each player, inevitable is really hard to overlook. Yes, that means that everyone has to pay attention. There is only one class that can do proxy without being killed and that is magicka nightblade. Maybe, really maybe, a sorc BE'ing in from out of sight. But that's all just opinions.

kojou · July 2015

Leandor wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

More damage is not the solution to break up zergs. Proven time and again by all changes that have been made so far. Partial Aoe-cap removal? Zergs got stronger. Magicka detonation? Zerg is the only strategy to make sure it doesn't kill people. Stop suggesting that some other mechanic of doing damage will help this, it won't.

Zergs laugh at that kind of deathray. Barrier, heal, move to caster or out of LOS, problem solved. Whatever you do to increase the damage output, the zerg will reap it thousandfold because every indiviual player will have access to it.

Except in this case the skill forces the players affected to spread out or die. It is not a LOS caster thing, but a LOS between the 2 players affected thing. The more players affected the more that have to spread out, so I think it would be interesting to see 2 zergs use it on each other.

Wrong. A zerg is able to provide 10'000 or more HPS in healing, in addition to multiple barriers (each eats 20'000 damage per individual player and is up again before its your turn in the rotation again). The only way to make a zerg buster skill based on damage would be to have a skill that causes sufficient damage to one-shot the entire zerg. And honestly? As much as I hate the zergs (or "highly skilled guild groups with coordinated use of all game provided possibilities"), having this would instakill the game.

10k HPS is not that much really... I have seen individual players in 4 man groups get higher, and if you have played Veteran Fungal Grotto you would know this is not something that you can (or want to) heal through. It is better to for the 2 players to spread out and stop the "beam."

A more detailed explanation of what I have in mind is a skill that is cast on 1 enemy player that chains that player to the closest enemy player of the same alliance. If they do not spread away from each other, for the sake of example 28 meters, one player basically dies or at least takes damage equal to the player's health that is chained. If you have whole groups casting this on each other then basically the whole groups are forced to spread out from each other.

I'm not saying it is a perfect idea, but I would like to have a healthy discussion to see if it is feasible or if another variation is feasible.

I know you disagree on this and other things working, but what are your thoughts on what would work, or do you prefer to have battles with large zergs running around casting AOE, so you don't want a solution?

ToRelax · July 2015

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

More damage is not the solution to break up zergs. Proven time and again by all changes that have been made so far. Partial Aoe-cap removal? Zergs got stronger. Magicka detonation? Zerg is the only strategy to make sure it doesn't kill people. Stop suggesting that some other mechanic of doing damage will help this, it won't.

Zergs laugh at that kind of deathray. Barrier, heal, move to caster or out of LOS, problem solved. Whatever you do to increase the damage output, the zerg will reap it thousandfold because every indiviual player will have access to it.

Except in this case the skill forces the players affected to spread out or die. It is not a LOS caster thing, but a LOS between the 2 players affected thing. The more players affected the more that have to spread out, so I think it would be interesting to see 2 zergs use it on each other.

Wrong. A zerg is able to provide 10'000 or more HPS in healing, in addition to multiple barriers (each eats 20'000 damage per individual player and is up again before its your turn in the rotation again). The only way to make a zerg buster skill based on damage would be to have a skill that causes sufficient damage to one-shot the entire zerg. And honestly? As much as I hate the zergs (or "highly skilled guild groups with coordinated use of all game provided possibilities"), having this would instakill the game.

10k HPS is not that much really... I have seen individual players in 4 man groups get higher, and if you have played Veteran Fungal Grotto you would know this is not something that you can (or want to) heal through. It is better to for the 2 players to spread out and stop the "beam."

A more detailed explanation of what I have in mind is a skill that is cast on 1 enemy player that chains that player to the closest enemy player of the same alliance. If they do not spread away from each other, for the sake of example 28 meters, one player basically dies or at least takes damage equal to the player's health that is chained. If you have whole groups casting this on each other then basically the whole groups are forced to spread out from each other.

I'm not saying it is a perfect idea, but I would like to have a healthy discussion to see if it is feasible or if another variation is feasible.

I know you disagree on this and other things working, but what are your thoughts on what would work, or do you prefer to have battles with large zergs running around casting AOE, so you don't want a solution?

Just make the DoT escalating, let it deal more damage the longer it stays.