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A Closer Look at the Issue of Bombsquads and an Attempt to Solve it
Sublime
✭✭✭✭
As mentioned once again in June's PvP Update bombsquads are an unwelcome tactic to facilitate PvP for large groups, while also causing severe server problems. With a rather successful console launch and some promising pictures from E3 it seems that the ZOS PvP team is getting closer to publish some major changes. In that regard I decided to write down my thoughs and ideas regarding the probably most heatly discussed issue in PvP:
This thread refers to bombsquads, which is, in this thread, a group of 24 players that tries to stack up as close as possible to get the maximum of the used healing abilities and AOE buffs. This tactic also allows them to stack a lot of AOE damage on a single location making their Center a very dangerous zone.
To solve a problem we first have to know it's cause. In gaming most desicions can be subdivided into two categories: psychology and game mechanics.
Psychology
Starting with psychology, there are not that many things to analyze. The main issue is the fear of dying and it's punishments (travelling back to the action), which results in players seeking safety in numbers. However, this can be achieved by any type of grouping and not only grouping up, therefore anying discouraging grouping in general , despite being aimed at bombsquads, would also lead to teamplay being a bad tactic. But this is, in a game where large-scale battles are one of the main part of PvP, obviously not a desirable solution. As a conclusion we see that the issue with bombsquads has to be somewhere in the game mechanic department.
Game Mechanics
This one is a bit trickier since there are more things to consider, to start it off I'm going to take a look at mechanics that incentivize certain tactics:
Encourage Stacking:
Discourage Spreading Out:
The suggestions:
1. Remove all AOE caps on offensive abilities. This would even out the inequality in terms of player streangth gained through stacking mentioned above.
Initially damage AOE caps were implemented to prevent single players from being able to 1vX whole zergs, but with the changes that came to ESOTU in update 1.6 they are no longer needed because additional targets no longer give huge boni (actually none) to the caster.
Pre-1.6 additional targets meant more ultimate and more kills (even more ultimate) for a single player. However, with the new patch ultimate is only generated from the buff, player kills and the Blood Spawn set, meaning that additional targets itself only actually benefits a player if he gets kills, making the original 1vX a lot harder. Apart from that the new system has much less playmaking potential for a single player, meaning it is a lot easier for several players to take out a single warrior. These factors combined result in the AOE-cap measure on damage abilities no longer being necessary to prevent excessive 1vX fights.
2. Provide group leaders with means to organize their party. To facilitate the implementation I'd suggest and option to replace a group members arrow on the head with anonther icon, for example the ones we have as guild ranks, but I think a simple shield for tanks, a cross for healers and two swords for DPS' would work aswell.
3. Should those changes not be enough, there would be the option to apply some changes to Magicka Detonation and its morphs:
Yes these changes would make it redundant for almost all other parts of the game, such as ganking or as counter to rolldodge. On the other side it would provide all players with a serious counter to heavily stacked group. Some players will probably die a couple of times despite not consciously stacking, but they will learn fast enough, and a 5m radius is small enough to avoid if one tries to, even when stacking on a flag. Apart from that, thanks to it high damage potential and the inexistent cast-time, it allows players to wipe large stacked enemy forces even if the server is experiencing severe lag.
Do those changes affect PvE?
The removal of the offensive AOE caps would increase the clear speed of certain objectives, but I think a slight buff to trash mobs in terms of armor/spell resistance or some increased CC-immunity would solve the problem, should it be one.
Regarding the group member icons I think it would even benefit PvE since, raids would be easier to coordinate, especially thanks to the ability to mark healers and tanks.
As far as i know Magicka Detonation isn't used too frequently in PvE so the changes to this skill, won't hurt too much. Additionally it won't be possible to achieve astronomical numbers in PvE, since the damage increase only procs against player targets.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler , just because I know you're pretty busy right now, but I still want you to read my stuff.
Edited by Sublime on 19 June 2015 23:27 This thread refers to bombsquads, which is, in this thread, a group of 24 players that tries to stack up as close as possible to get the maximum of the used healing abilities and AOE buffs. This tactic also allows them to stack a lot of AOE damage on a single location making their Center a very dangerous zone.
To solve a problem we first have to know it's cause. In gaming most desicions can be subdivided into two categories: psychology and game mechanics.
Psychology
Starting with psychology, there are not that many things to analyze. The main issue is the fear of dying and it's punishments (travelling back to the action), which results in players seeking safety in numbers. However, this can be achieved by any type of grouping and not only grouping up, therefore anying discouraging grouping in general , despite being aimed at bombsquads, would also lead to teamplay being a bad tactic. But this is, in a game where large-scale battles are one of the main part of PvP, obviously not a desirable solution. As a conclusion we see that the issue with bombsquads has to be somewhere in the game mechanic department.
Game Mechanics
This one is a bit trickier since there are more things to consider, to start it off I'm going to take a look at mechanics that incentivize certain tactics:
Encourage Stacking:
- Assuming a 24-man group AOE caps reduce all incoming AOE damage by 62.5% and CC by 75%. Yes the player actually deals more damage for his ressources spent and probably also puts out more CC, but for each additional player above 6 in the AOE, the bombsquad gets additional group effectiveness with the value of 1 player while attacker on deals additional damage for 0.5 players and CC for zero. Meaning the bombsquads gets more group effectivenes than it becomes vulnearble to enemy players.
Discourage Spreading Out:
- Commanding a large force gets increasingly challanging as the diversity of the tactic increases. Having everybody doing the same, means all members can react to the same commands, this ensures good reaction time of the entire raid and a decent maneuverbility. However, any more diverse tactic is very challanging to pull of, since there are no built-in tools that would help a leader issue specific commands to subgroups of his army.
- Most heals and all buffs are AOE based with the player in the center, this results in maximum ressource efficiency (most players earing the buff) being earned through stacking and spreading out being undesirable.
The suggestions:
1. Remove all AOE caps on offensive abilities. This would even out the inequality in terms of player streangth gained through stacking mentioned above.
Initially damage AOE caps were implemented to prevent single players from being able to 1vX whole zergs, but with the changes that came to ESOTU in update 1.6 they are no longer needed because additional targets no longer give huge boni (actually none) to the caster.
Pre-1.6 additional targets meant more ultimate and more kills (even more ultimate) for a single player. However, with the new patch ultimate is only generated from the buff, player kills and the Blood Spawn set, meaning that additional targets itself only actually benefits a player if he gets kills, making the original 1vX a lot harder. Apart from that the new system has much less playmaking potential for a single player, meaning it is a lot easier for several players to take out a single warrior. These factors combined result in the AOE-cap measure on damage abilities no longer being necessary to prevent excessive 1vX fights.
2. Provide group leaders with means to organize their party. To facilitate the implementation I'd suggest and option to replace a group members arrow on the head with anonther icon, for example the ones we have as guild ranks, but I think a simple shield for tanks, a cross for healers and two swords for DPS' would work aswell.
3. Should those changes not be enough, there would be the option to apply some changes to Magicka Detonation and its morphs:
- Reduce it's radius to 5m.
- Reduce it's base damage to 1/4 of the current value.
- Remove the cast-time.
- NEW: Make it scale and cost based on the highest stat (like ultimates).
- NEW: Each additional player target in the AOE causes the damage to increase by 2k.
Yes these changes would make it redundant for almost all other parts of the game, such as ganking or as counter to rolldodge. On the other side it would provide all players with a serious counter to heavily stacked group. Some players will probably die a couple of times despite not consciously stacking, but they will learn fast enough, and a 5m radius is small enough to avoid if one tries to, even when stacking on a flag. Apart from that, thanks to it high damage potential and the inexistent cast-time, it allows players to wipe large stacked enemy forces even if the server is experiencing severe lag.
Do those changes affect PvE?
The removal of the offensive AOE caps would increase the clear speed of certain objectives, but I think a slight buff to trash mobs in terms of armor/spell resistance or some increased CC-immunity would solve the problem, should it be one.
Regarding the group member icons I think it would even benefit PvE since, raids would be easier to coordinate, especially thanks to the ability to mark healers and tanks.
As far as i know Magicka Detonation isn't used too frequently in PvE so the changes to this skill, won't hurt too much. Additionally it won't be possible to achieve astronomical numbers in PvE, since the damage increase only procs against player targets.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler , just because I know you're pretty busy right now, but I still want you to read my stuff.
EU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)
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manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭A bomb group is not a 24 man raid. It is generally a 10-12 man, and at most 16 (although even that feels like pushing it). A bomb group is a response to larger 24+ man groups.
A 24 man raid gets what it does done because of healing and support skills. A bomb group uses high burst damage to get the edge over the enemy.
A 24 man raid has long sustained fights. A bomb group does damage, gets out, and gets ready to make another push.
If you wish come stay a while and listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox5T_a3QmbE - Mojican1 -
Garion✭✭✭✭✭
✭A bomb group is not a 24 man raid. It is generally a 10-12 man, and at most 16 (although even that feels like pushing it). A bomb group is a response to larger 24+ man groups.
A 24 man raid gets what it does done because of healing and support skills. A bomb group uses high burst damage to get the edge over the enemy.
A 24 man raid has long sustained fights. A bomb group does damage, gets out, and gets ready to make another push.
If you wish come stay a while and listen.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox5T_a3QmbE
Fair point, but let's not argue over semantics. A Zerg blob (as I like to call them) is a 24 main raid who focusses on stacking on the crown and staying tight together. On the EU server at least, a lot of people refer to these groups as 'bomb squads' or more commonly nowadays 'trains'. Perhaps this doesn't fit in with your definition, or even the commonly used definition of bomb squads within the MMO genre, but the point is the OP has taken the time to write a well thought out post on some changes that could be implemented to discourage this style of play. Rather than discussing how these groups should be labelled, let's discuss the points the OP is making, shall we?Lastobeth - VR16 Sorc - PvP Rank 41 (AD)
Lastoblyat - VR16 Templar - PvP Rank 14 (AD)
Ninja Pete - VR16 NB - PvP Rank 10 (AD)
Labo the Banana Slayer - VR14 Sorc - PvP Rank 12 (EP)
Member of Banana Squad | Officer of Arena4 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭A bomb group is not a 24 man raid. It is generally a 10-12 man, and at most 16 (although even that feels like pushing it). A bomb group is a response to larger 24+ man groups.
A 24 man raid gets what it does done because of healing and support skills. A bomb group uses high burst damage to get the edge over the enemy.
A 24 man raid has long sustained fights. A bomb group does damage, gets out, and gets ready to make another push.
If you wish come stay a while and listen.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox5T_a3QmbE
Fair point, but let's not argue over semantics. A Zerg blob (as I like to call them) is a 24 main raid who focusses on stacking on the crown and staying tight together. On the EU server at least, a lot of people refer to these groups as 'bomb squads' or more commonly nowadays 'trains'. Perhaps this doesn't fit in with your definition, or even the commonly used definition of bomb squads within the MMO genre, but the point is the OP has taken the time to write a well thought out post on some changes that could be implemented to discourage this style of play. Rather than discussing how these groups should be labelled, let's discuss the points the OP is making, shall we?
I am not arguing over anything. I made a statement. You can agree or disagree, but frankly I don't care. You can discuss what ever you want, but don't tell me what I should do.- Mojican0 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Do those changes affect PvE?
The removal of the offensive AOE caps would increase the clear speed of certain objectives, but I think a slight buff to trash mobs in terms of armor/spell resistance or some increased CC-immunity would solve the problem, should it be one.
This was clearly written by somebody who doesn't understand PvE and the havoc already wreaked by PvP nerfs. Sure, removing AOE caps will increase damage in theory, but in practice that's not what happens, at least not if history is any guide. Why? Because every time ZoS giveth, they taketh away twice as much.
AOE caps were greatly lifted in update 1.6, but the AOE spells themselves were NERFED. In the case of Wall of Elements, the nerf was so bad that no one even uses it anymore. Remember when PvP whiners complained about "Impulse spam"? Not anymore... now the best AOE in the game belongs to some clown spinning around with a dagger in each hand!
Furthermore, certain spells that had good synergy with AOE, such as Critical Surge, were gimped so horribly that they're not worth slotting now. The problem is that these synergies were what kept the player ALIVE while doing all that damage. In ESO 1.5, my Sorc could Surge heal for around 40% of total damage output. That was just enough to keep her alive during big mob pulls of a dozen or more. After the 1.6 update that forced the cooldown on Critical Surge, she's lucky to get 10% heals vs. damage, and that percentage only goes DOWN as the number of mobs goes up. IT. IS . NOT. ENOUGH.
Now you think mobs should get BUFFED, too? LOL, are there any even any mobs left that don't have CC immunity, at least some of the time? And, on top if that, you want us stack spell penetration just kill a SKEEVER? I guess I could just switch all my weapons to Nirnhoned... oh wait... Nirnhoned is about to get nerfed, too. Why? PvP whines, of course!
Please, just keep your nerfs in Cyrodiil and stay away from PvE
Edited by Emma_Overload on 17 June 2015 18:46#CAREBEARMASTERRACE1 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »
Do those changes affect PvE?
The removal of the offensive AOE caps would increase the clear speed of certain objectives, but I think a slight buff to trash mobs in terms of armor/spell resistance or some increased CC-immunity would solve the problem, should it be one.
This was clearly written by somebody who doesn't understand PvE and the havoc already wreaked by PvP nerfs. Sure, removing AOE caps will increase damage in theory, but in practice that's not what happens, at least not if history is any guide. Why? Because every time ZoS giveth, they taketh away twice as much.
AOE caps were greatly lifted in update 1.6, but the AOE spells themselves were NERFED. In the case of Wall of Elements, the nerf was so bad that no one even uses it anymore. Remember when PvP whiners complained about "Impulse spam"? Not anymore... now the best AOE in the game belongs to some clown spinning around with a dagger in each hand!
Furthermore, certain spells that had good synergy with AOE, such as Critical Surge, were gimped so horribly that they're not worth slotting now. The problem is that these synergies were what kept the player ALIVE while doing all that damage. In ESO 1.5, my Sorc could Surge heal for around 40% of total damage output. That was just enough to keep her alive during big mob pulls of a dozen or more. After the 1.6 update that forced the cooldown on Critical Surge, she's lucky to get 10% heals vs. damage, and that percentage only goes DOWN as the number of mobs goes up. IT. IS . NOT. ENOUGH.
Now you think mobs should get BUFFED, too? LOL, are there any even any mobs left that don't have CC immunity, at least some of the time? And, on top if that, you want us stack spell penetration just kill a SKEEVER? I guess I could just switch all my weapons to Nirnhoned... oh wait... Nirnhoned is about to get nerfed, too. Why? PvP whines, of course!
Please, just keep your nerfs in Cyrodiil and stay away from PvE
He didnt suggest buffing mobs for no reason. The buffs would offset the boost in damage youd receive for not being mitigated.
Surge was also very strong, and doesnt seem to really make much sense here, along with a lot of random examples of how PVE is hard and should never change once youve learned how to complete it.2 -
Sublime✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »
Do those changes affect PvE?
The removal of the offensive AOE caps would increase the clear speed of certain objectives, but I think a slight buff to trash mobs in terms of armor/spell resistance or some increased CC-immunity would solve the problem, should it be one.
This was clearly written by somebody who doesn't understand PvE.
Now you think mobs should get BUFFED, too? LOL, are there any even any mobs left that don't have CC immunity, at least some of the time? And, on top if that, you want us stack spell penetration just kill a SKEEVER? I guess I could just switch all my weapons to Nirnhoned... oh wait... Nirnhoned is about to get nerfed, too. Why? PvP whines, of course!
Please, just keep your nerfs in Cyrodiil and stay away from PvE
TL;DR: Basically what @FENGRUSH said.
I'm not sure whether you read my whole post, but to say it again it would only contain a buff to trash mobs should it be necessary. Regarding the CC-immunity it is exactly as you said, I have, in contrast to PvP, no clue of PvE, meaning that the cc-immunity would only be applied to keep the mobs at their current streangth, for the purpose of minimizing the effect of the changes on PvE.
It has to be noted that this part was an idea of mine (motiated by complains about the facility of PvE) to keep the PvE content difficult and entertaining, if the PvE community prefers to not buff the trash mobs, which would make some content easier because of the increased damage from AOE abilities, I don't think any PvP player would mind.
Regarding nirnhoned, I don't think they are going to nerf the weapon trait, I only heard about nerfs coming to the armor one, but that's a completely different topic.Edited by Sublime on 17 June 2015 18:56EU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)0 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »
Do those changes affect PvE?
The removal of the offensive AOE caps would increase the clear speed of certain objectives, but I think a slight buff to trash mobs in terms of armor/spell resistance or some increased CC-immunity would solve the problem, should it be one.
This was clearly written by somebody who doesn't understand PvE.
Now you think mobs should get BUFFED, too? LOL, are there any even any mobs left that don't have CC immunity, at least some of the time? And, on top if that, you want us stack spell penetration just kill a SKEEVER? I guess I could just switch all my weapons to Nirnhoned... oh wait... Nirnhoned is about to get nerfed, too. Why? PvP whines, of course!
Please, just keep your nerfs in Cyrodiil and stay away from PvE
TL;DR: Basically what @FENGRUSH said.
I'm not sure whether you read my whole post, but to say it again it would only contain a buff to trash mobs should it be necessary. Regarding the CC-immunity it is exactly as you said, I have, in contrast to PvP, no clue of PvE, meaning that the cc-immunity would only be applied to keep the mobs at their current streangth, for the purpose of minimizing the effect of the changes on PvE.
It has to be noted that this part was an idea of mine (motiated by complains about the facility of PvE) to keep the PvE content difficult and entertaining, if the PvE community prefers to not buff the trash mobs, which would make some content easier because of the increased damage from AOE abilities, I don't think any PvP player would mind.
Regarding nirnhoned, I don't think they are going to nerf the weapon trait, I only heard about nerfs coming to the armor one, but that's a completely different topic.
Forgot to mention - agree with lifting the caps. Will they do it? Pretty much never. Would be great to hear the explanation for it and actually discuss how misplaced the answer would be in comparison to what theyve left us with. But..yea, having my AOE hit players for 25% of the damage before even measuring their mitigation is a joke. Especially when youre eating 100% from players that already outnumber you. This is what happens when too many idiots cry about dying to bat ults and standards rather than learning how to position and fight and reward those who do.3 -
SkylarkAU✭✭✭✭Implement squad leaders within groups assignable by the commander with each SL having uniquely identifiable chevrons and waypoint map elements.
Rather than break things apart or make the underlying mechanics more complex, why not facilitate a more evolved play style that allows groups to operate on a higher level. The way groups work at the moment encourage the single ball mentality because it is how the group system is designed - 1 group, 1 crown, 1 objective. Make it 1 group, 1 crown, 3 stars with 1 objective each and it will open up new possibilities.
My 2c
Skylärk // v16 Stamina DK (AvA 23)
Elizabeth Skylark // v16 Magicka Sorc (AvA 29)
Tauriel Skylark // v16 Stamina NB (AvA 12)
Alexander Skylark // v2 Magicka Templar
Terra Australis XI // v2 Magicka DK
Nocturnal | RÀGE
<< PC/NA/AD >>
Youtube0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭A bomb group is not a 24 man raid. It is generally a 10-12 man, and at most 16 (although even that feels like pushing it). A bomb group is a response to larger 24+ man groups.
A 24 man raid gets what it does done because of healing and support skills. A bomb group uses high burst damage to get the edge over the enemy.
A 24 man raid has long sustained fights. A bomb group does damage, gets out, and gets ready to make another push.
If you wish come stay a while and listen.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox5T_a3QmbE
Fair point, but let's not argue over semantics. A Zerg blob (as I like to call them) is a 24 main raid who focusses on stacking on the crown and staying tight together. On the EU server at least, a lot of people refer to these groups as 'bomb squads' or more commonly nowadays 'trains'. Perhaps this doesn't fit in with your definition, or even the commonly used definition of bomb squads within the MMO genre, but the point is the OP has taken the time to write a well thought out post on some changes that could be implemented to discourage this style of play. Rather than discussing how these groups should be labelled, let's discuss the points the OP is making, shall we?
They're zergballs, we use to run a 6 person bomb squad at the start of the game.
Bomb Squads are basically about taking out large numbers quickly as possible the mopping up the rest.
Zergballs are just Raid Guilds zerging.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Sublime✭✭✭✭There seems to be some disagrement in regarding definitions so I decided to define what I'm talking about:
This thread refers to bombsquads, which is, in this thread, a group of 24 players that tries to stack up as close as possible to get the maximum of the used healing abilities and AOE buffs. This tactic also allows them to stack a lot of AOE damage on a single location making their Center a very dangerous zone.Edited by Sublime on 18 June 2015 00:17EU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)0 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There seems to be some disagrement in regarding definitions so I decided to define what I'm talking about:
This tread refers to bombsquads, which is, in this thread, a group of 24 players that tries to stack up as close as possible to get the maximum of the used healing abilities and AOE buffs. This tactic also allows them to stack a lot of AOE damage on a single location making their Center a very dangerous zone.
Why do you call them bombsquads in EU? "Bombing" is sort of a tactical quick strike - so to speak. These groups dont do that. Everyone watching them can pretty much predict, 'ok theyre grouping up now, theyre flooding purge, theres the barrier, theyre running in and standing on the flags hammering purge or heal'. They can det and crash into people, but thats BAU.
Bomb squads typically blindside and quickly burst damage on larger groups. If there was some kind of explanation as to why you call them that, thatd be helpful. Do you call these kind of smaller quick strike groups zerg in EU? Or blobs? Please clarify.
Otherwise you can just make a thread and call it "nerf mages". What are mages? This thread refers to mages, which is, in this thread, anyone who uses magicka in their build.1 -
Sublime✭✭✭✭Regarding the origin: I don't really know why they are called like that, maybe because they're like a bomb, if you get to close it explodes and you die. It's just the term I've always used for this tactic. In the end, as long as the term, the definition and the link between the two are clear one can basically, make any definition. As you said one could use any word instead of "bombsquad", as long as everybody gets what it refers to it doesn't matter. Therefore I expained it's definition for this thread, so the title and subject are clear.
Regarding the bomb squads you are refering to, I've honestly never really seen this playstyle used to extent, large enough to demand a name, which might be the reason for the differences in terminology.Edited by Sublime on 18 June 2015 00:35EU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)0 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »
Do those changes affect PvE?
The removal of the offensive AOE caps would increase the clear speed of certain objectives, but I think a slight buff to trash mobs in terms of armor/spell resistance or some increased CC-immunity would solve the problem, should it be one.
This was clearly written by somebody who doesn't understand PvE and the havoc already wreaked by PvP nerfs. Sure, removing AOE caps will increase damage in theory, but in practice that's not what happens, at least not if history is any guide. Why? Because every time ZoS giveth, they taketh away twice as much.
AOE caps were greatly lifted in update 1.6, but the AOE spells themselves were NERFED. In the case of Wall of Elements, the nerf was so bad that no one even uses it anymore. Remember when PvP whiners complained about "Impulse spam"? Not anymore... now the best AOE in the game belongs to some clown spinning around with a dagger in each hand!
Furthermore, certain spells that had good synergy with AOE, such as Critical Surge, were gimped so horribly that they're not worth slotting now. The problem is that these synergies were what kept the player ALIVE while doing all that damage. In ESO 1.5, my Sorc could Surge heal for around 40% of total damage output. That was just enough to keep her alive during big mob pulls of a dozen or more. After the 1.6 update that forced the cooldown on Critical Surge, she's lucky to get 10% heals vs. damage, and that percentage only goes DOWN as the number of mobs goes up. IT. IS . NOT. ENOUGH.
Now you think mobs should get BUFFED, too? LOL, are there any even any mobs left that don't have CC immunity, at least some of the time? And, on top if that, you want us stack spell penetration just kill a SKEEVER? I guess I could just switch all my weapons to Nirnhoned... oh wait... Nirnhoned is about to get nerfed, too. Why? PvP whines, of course!
Please, just keep your nerfs in Cyrodiil and stay away from PvE
He didnt suggest buffing mobs for no reason. The buffs would offset the boost in damage youd receive for not being mitigated.
Surge was also very strong, and doesnt seem to really make much sense here, along with a lot of random examples of how PVE is hard and should never change once youve learned how to complete it.
Buffing my damage output doesn't do me any good if I'm dead. If you're going to make mobs tougher, my shields and heals need to be tougher, too, so that I can make it through the fight. Shields may seem "OP" right now in PvP, but in solo PvE they're barely adequate for most situations and completely fail against the toughest mobs in Vet dungeons. Healing, of course took a massive hit in 1.6, especially for Sorcs. The numbers just don't add up. You've got random Craglorn mobs outputting 20K per hit...each... but even Resto heals are only a fraction of that. If anything, mobs need to be nerfed, not players.#CAREBEARMASTERRACE0 -
Molsondry✭✭✭With a rather successful console launch and some promising pictures from E3 it seems that the ZOS PvP team is getting closer to publish some major changes.
I LOLED .
Made my day.
What picture from e3 ? I looked the conference there was absolutely nothing new.
Successful console launch . ? Not so much. Do you read the forum?
They didnt even bother to get to e3. We saw 15 second video of a guy in the empty zenimax offices.v9 Sorcerer0 -
Sublime✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Emma_Eunjung wrote: »
Do those changes affect PvE?
The removal of the offensive AOE caps would increase the clear speed of certain objectives, but I think a slight buff to trash mobs in terms of armor/spell resistance or some increased CC-immunity would solve the problem, should it be one.
This was clearly written by somebody who doesn't understand PvE and the havoc already wreaked by PvP nerfs. Sure, removing AOE caps will increase damage in theory, but in practice that's not what happens, at least not if history is any guide. Why? Because every time ZoS giveth, they taketh away twice as much.
AOE caps were greatly lifted in update 1.6, but the AOE spells themselves were NERFED. In the case of Wall of Elements, the nerf was so bad that no one even uses it anymore. Remember when PvP whiners complained about "Impulse spam"? Not anymore... now the best AOE in the game belongs to some clown spinning around with a dagger in each hand!
Furthermore, certain spells that had good synergy with AOE, such as Critical Surge, were gimped so horribly that they're not worth slotting now. The problem is that these synergies were what kept the player ALIVE while doing all that damage. In ESO 1.5, my Sorc could Surge heal for around 40% of total damage output. That was just enough to keep her alive during big mob pulls of a dozen or more. After the 1.6 update that forced the cooldown on Critical Surge, she's lucky to get 10% heals vs. damage, and that percentage only goes DOWN as the number of mobs goes up. IT. IS . NOT. ENOUGH.
Now you think mobs should get BUFFED, too? LOL, are there any even any mobs left that don't have CC immunity, at least some of the time? And, on top if that, you want us stack spell penetration just kill a SKEEVER? I guess I could just switch all my weapons to Nirnhoned... oh wait... Nirnhoned is about to get nerfed, too. Why? PvP whines, of course!
Please, just keep your nerfs in Cyrodiil and stay away from PvE
He didnt suggest buffing mobs for no reason. The buffs would offset the boost in damage youd receive for not being mitigated.
Surge was also very strong, and doesnt seem to really make much sense here, along with a lot of random examples of how PVE is hard and should never change once youve learned how to complete it.
Buffing my damage output doesn't do me any good if I'm dead. If you're going to make mobs tougher, my shields and heals need to be tougher, too, so that I can make it through the fight. Shields may seem "OP" right now in PvP, but in solo PvE they're barely adequate for most situations and completely fail against the toughest mobs in Vet dungeons. Healing, of course took a massive hit in 1.6, especially for Sorcs. The numbers just don't add up. You've got random Craglorn mobs outputting 20K per hit...each... but even Resto heals are only a fraction of that. If anything, mobs need to be nerfed, not players.
I certainly agree that sorc survivability for PvE got trashed with 1.6, but remember the only changes suggested to PvE in this thread would be to increase the defensive values of the mobs, since the removal of AOE caps would increase a players damage output, so that the changes net in no changes to PvE at all. There is no chanage suggested that would buff any offensive capability of any NPC.With a rather successful console launch and some promising pictures from E3 it seems that the ZOS PvP team is getting closer to publish some major changes.
I LOLED .
Made my day.
What picture from e3 ? I looked the conference there was absolutely nothing new.
Successful console launch . ? Not so much. Do you read the forum?
They didnt even bother to get to e3. We saw 15 second video of a guy in the empty zenimax offices.
Pictures is a fancy version of video. Regarding the success of console launch I don't know actual numbers but the feedback at reddit seems to be extremely positive.Edited by Sublime on 18 June 2015 01:41EU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)0 -
Molsondry✭✭✭Pictures is a fancy version of video. Regarding the success of console launch I don't know actual numbers but the feedback at reddit seems to be extremely positive.
Feedback after a week for a mmo? Give a them a month or two plz.v9 Sorcerer0 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Emma_Eunjung wrote: »
Do those changes affect PvE?
The removal of the offensive AOE caps would increase the clear speed of certain objectives, but I think a slight buff to trash mobs in terms of armor/spell resistance or some increased CC-immunity would solve the problem, should it be one.
This was clearly written by somebody who doesn't understand PvE and the havoc already wreaked by PvP nerfs. Sure, removing AOE caps will increase damage in theory, but in practice that's not what happens, at least not if history is any guide. Why? Because every time ZoS giveth, they taketh away twice as much.
AOE caps were greatly lifted in update 1.6, but the AOE spells themselves were NERFED. In the case of Wall of Elements, the nerf was so bad that no one even uses it anymore. Remember when PvP whiners complained about "Impulse spam"? Not anymore... now the best AOE in the game belongs to some clown spinning around with a dagger in each hand!
Furthermore, certain spells that had good synergy with AOE, such as Critical Surge, were gimped so horribly that they're not worth slotting now. The problem is that these synergies were what kept the player ALIVE while doing all that damage. In ESO 1.5, my Sorc could Surge heal for around 40% of total damage output. That was just enough to keep her alive during big mob pulls of a dozen or more. After the 1.6 update that forced the cooldown on Critical Surge, she's lucky to get 10% heals vs. damage, and that percentage only goes DOWN as the number of mobs goes up. IT. IS . NOT. ENOUGH.
Now you think mobs should get BUFFED, too? LOL, are there any even any mobs left that don't have CC immunity, at least some of the time? And, on top if that, you want us stack spell penetration just kill a SKEEVER? I guess I could just switch all my weapons to Nirnhoned... oh wait... Nirnhoned is about to get nerfed, too. Why? PvP whines, of course!
Please, just keep your nerfs in Cyrodiil and stay away from PvE
He didnt suggest buffing mobs for no reason. The buffs would offset the boost in damage youd receive for not being mitigated.
Surge was also very strong, and doesnt seem to really make much sense here, along with a lot of random examples of how PVE is hard and should never change once youve learned how to complete it.
Buffing my damage output doesn't do me any good if I'm dead. If you're going to make mobs tougher, my shields and heals need to be tougher, too, so that I can make it through the fight. Shields may seem "OP" right now in PvP, but in solo PvE they're barely adequate for most situations and completely fail against the toughest mobs in Vet dungeons. Healing, of course took a massive hit in 1.6, especially for Sorcs. The numbers just don't add up. You've got random Craglorn mobs outputting 20K per hit...each... but even Resto heals are only a fraction of that. If anything, mobs need to be nerfed, not players.
Buffing mobs resistance to offset the removal of diminishing damage doesnt affect mobs damage at all. This is a nonissue.0 -
Kas✭✭✭✭✭There seems to be some disagrement in regarding definitions so I decided to define what I'm talking about:
This tread refers to bombsquads, which is, in this thread, a group of 24 players that tries to stack up as close as possible to get the maximum of the used healing abilities and AOE buffs. This tactic also allows them to stack a lot of AOE damage on a single location making their Center a very dangerous zone.
Why do you call them bombsquads in EU? "Bombing" is sort of a tactical quick strike - so to speak. These groups dont do that. Everyone watching them can pretty much predict, 'ok theyre grouping up now, theyre flooding purge, theres the barrier, theyre running in and standing on the flags hammering purge or heal'. They can det and crash into people, but thats BAU.
Bomb squads typically blindside and quickly burst damage on larger groups. If there was some kind of explanation as to why you call them that, thatd be helpful. Do you call these kind of smaller quick strike groups zerg in EU? Or blobs? Please clarify.
Otherwise you can just make a thread and call it "nerf mages". What are mages? This thread refers to mages, which is, in this thread, anyone who uses magicka in their build.
As someone who plays kinda like in the vid posted (of course, we're a million times better
) - i.e. jumping blobs from behind with ults and synergies:
Because if you want to bomb a GOOD 24-man group you need a certain number of players as well. If they don't die instantly, but pop several barriers in an orchestrated way, a longer fight starts. Add a few randoms plus soem fights nearby and servers will start to lag. If you don't disengage right away, you often find yourself in a situations where yu also need healing springs, AoE, etc.
Randoms might even ball with you. To observers outside your group you look no different than if you had come at the enemy in a visible blob of 20 everybody spamming that one skill.
We often start as 3-5 players with tons of single target spells, mobility, etc. As the evening progresses, more players join. I have no illusions that what we do between 9 and 10pm is too different from the typical 24-48 zerg blob. Even if we usually never stick on the crown for more than 5seconds to create an impact and benefit from synergies, we get stuck like the typical zerg as soon as it lags.
There's a thin line between your "bomb squd" and "zerg". While it's obvious to the ones inside (with group symbols above the heads, ignoring own faction randoms, etc), it isn't to those seeing the group from the outside.Edited by Kas on 18 June 2015 10:01@bbu - AD/EU
Kasiia - Templar (AR46)
Kasiir Aberion - Sorc (AR38)
Dr Kastafari - Warden (~AR31)
+ many others2 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nice written and we'll thought out post. I very much agree with your problem assessment, but think that there is another issue that needs to be changed. I will shamelessly bump the post I made for one of the fallen, because I think it has many points worth discussing. Sadly it's apparently too wordy for people to have interest in it. I'll link it here for people who may be interested.
Word of advise: don't bother to argue semantics with the trolls. They will pull you down and get the topic locked otherwise. And that other PvE hero is best left to ramble.Edited by Leandor on 18 June 2015 10:211