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Dual Wield: Another Gap Closer Suggestion
Obscure
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For a melee set, Dual Wield lacking a gap closer is the biggest deterrent from its use. Yes, some would say it's got features that help with gap closing, though I see them more as the style of it, 2h is a berserker , 1h+shield is a tough defender, and DW is a high mobility harrier. Contrasting the skills in the line against Invasion or Stampede, it's simply inadequate without supplementing a class skill for gap closing.
Suggestion: Flurry as a gap closer.
I personally hate the skill, I've never liked it, and even posted a video of myself out DPSing it with heavy attacks several months ago. Messing with it again post 1.6 just to reconfirm my animosity towards the skill, I've come to the conclusion what it truly lacks is any valuable utility as a, at best, mediocre DPS tool. But, if Flurry was also a gap closer it would suddenly become a solid build option (especially since it's unimpressive damage was reduced by 8%). Step one would be to change the final attack in the Flurry animation to include a leap/jump/charge character animation which will permit a reasonable distance gap closer (15m-20m). The mechanical changes would be if any of the attacks miss the target, to include the first one, the Flurry animation skips to the final attack animation, which is a gap closer. This makes Flurry "sticky" when used up close, and additionally gives it the utility to be used entirely as a gap closer. Other options for the mechanics of the skill is simply making it alternate based on distance to target, where if the target is at gap closing range it's just the gap closer that just plays the final attack animation, and if they're in melee range it's Flurry with miss = gap close (currently how the Lava Whip free attack alternates the skill from the normal skill to the attack and heal version when detecting an off balance target).
Perhaps it would improve the viability of DW by improving a skill that needs improvement and making the line more attractive for the melee centric play style.
Yeah, I know. If you've been around these forums as long as I have, you've probably seen more than enough of these "DW needs gap closer" threads. My reasoning, "What's the harm in one more?"
Suggestion: Flurry as a gap closer.
I personally hate the skill, I've never liked it, and even posted a video of myself out DPSing it with heavy attacks several months ago. Messing with it again post 1.6 just to reconfirm my animosity towards the skill, I've come to the conclusion what it truly lacks is any valuable utility as a, at best, mediocre DPS tool. But, if Flurry was also a gap closer it would suddenly become a solid build option (especially since it's unimpressive damage was reduced by 8%). Step one would be to change the final attack in the Flurry animation to include a leap/jump/charge character animation which will permit a reasonable distance gap closer (15m-20m). The mechanical changes would be if any of the attacks miss the target, to include the first one, the Flurry animation skips to the final attack animation, which is a gap closer. This makes Flurry "sticky" when used up close, and additionally gives it the utility to be used entirely as a gap closer. Other options for the mechanics of the skill is simply making it alternate based on distance to target, where if the target is at gap closing range it's just the gap closer that just plays the final attack animation, and if they're in melee range it's Flurry with miss = gap close (currently how the Lava Whip free attack alternates the skill from the normal skill to the attack and heal version when detecting an off balance target).
Perhaps it would improve the viability of DW by improving a skill that needs improvement and making the line more attractive for the melee centric play style.
Yeah, I know. If you've been around these forums as long as I have, you've probably seen more than enough of these "DW needs gap closer" threads. My reasoning, "What's the harm in one more?"
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danovic✭✭✭Templars have there own charge, Dragon knight pull the mob to them, nightblades teleport strike and sorc's could bolt escape to the target if they wanted too so why would you need a closure skill for duel wield?0 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭Templars have there own charge, Dragon knight pull the mob to them, nightblades teleport strike and sorc's could bolt escape to the target if they wanted too so why would you need a closure skill for duel wield?
Why does 2h or 1h+shield have a gap closer? As you've indicated it's entirely unnecessary.
Rhetorical questioning aside, it comes down to skill line utility, versatility, and build variety. It's lacking an option the other melee skill lines have, reducing it by those metrics.1 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭Templars have there own charge, Dragon knight pull the mob to them, nightblades teleport strike and sorc's could bolt escape to the target if they wanted too so why would you need a closure skill for duel wield?
Why does 2h or 1h+shield have a gap closer? As you've indicated it's entirely unnecessary.
Rhetorical questioning aside, it comes down to skill line utility, versatility, and build variety. It's lacking an option the other melee skill lines have, reducing it by those metrics.
because they have no range option like hidden blades and morphs.
Edited by Tankqull on 18 March 2015 22:24spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭Templars have there own charge, Dragon knight pull the mob to them, nightblades teleport strike and sorc's could bolt escape to the target if they wanted too so why would you need a closure skill for duel wield?
Why does 2h or 1h+shield have a gap closer? As you've indicated it's entirely unnecessary.
Rhetorical questioning aside, it comes down to skill line utility, versatility, and build variety. It's lacking an option the other melee skill lines have, reducing it by those metrics.
because they have no range option like hidden blades and morphs.
Yet they do have a range option, a 22m one. One that provides inherent synergy with the other skills in the line. It closes the gap to facilitate the use of other skills in the line. Hidden Blade has no such inherent synergy. The follow up skill to use after Hidden Blade, or Flying Blade, is only that skill again, with the incredibly build specific case of also using Deadly Cloak's free attack. The key point to versatility is synergy, versatility for the sake of versatility is mechanically sub optimal.0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭i´m not disagreen to give dual wield a gapcloser but the sacrifice has to be hidden blades and not another skill that is on top not liked by you.spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭i´m not disagreen to give dual wield a gapcloser but the sacrifice has to be hidden blades and not another skill that is on top not liked by you.
I don't preclude the notion that Hidden Blades also needs to go, but I also don't particularly see it as a "sacrifice" to be rid of either. It should be a melee skill to synergize with other melee skills. Flurry is particularly bad, and since it occurs so early in the skill line it defines much of how players end up using that skill line. Improving that skill by making a gap closer is thus my assessment. Hidden Blade needs adjustment for entirely different reasons, especially if the skill line has a gap closer. Not because it's an advantage to have both, it's actually a disadvantage in the lack of options with inherent synergy (I.E. what advantage does one gain with a high powered sniper scope on a sawwed off 12 gauge shotgun loaded with buck shot?).
Hidden Blade should become a melee execute, with a buffed version of the Shroud of Daggers morph (a directional cone attack that's basically a crappy lower ranged lesser CC version of Bombard) being the ranged option that trades off the single target Execute to become an AoE. Flying Blade should be removed, and replaced with a skill that synergizes with Blood Craze's DoT and HoT effect and/or Whirling Blade's stamina over time effect, be it bonus damage against bleeding targets or a heal when killing a target with the skill, or improved HoT and SoT(? stamina over time) effects after use. Anything to bring it into the family of skills in that line rather than standing out at 36m with no follow up strategy but "spam spam spam".
I kinda think Hidden Blade is a subject for a whole different thread, but suffice it to say it's relevance is at least worth mentioning as "the skill that doesn't belong". Deadly Cloak is pretty strange too, I'm not entirely sure what the point of getting a free ranged attack is when you activate a AoE defence skill with a 3 second PBAoE that goes off around you. Seems like just an odd little design afterthought. Now if that was an execute, that would make sense, and they could get rid of Hidden Blade entirely for another skill. Hell they had no problem full on deleting Sparks and it's morphs, what's one more in that skill line?0 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭i myself love flurry:/ the only problem is when your enemy continually dodge rolls it, but then one should stop using it and use something else while the enemy burns away their stamina.
I personally think hidden blade should be some kind of "Gap closer" how, i do not know.0 -
Stannum✭✭✭✭
2h and 1h+shield do not have ranged attack in line when dw has. So what? We would whine to add ranged akill to these lines?Templars have there own charge, Dragon knight pull the mob to them, nightblades teleport strike and sorc's could bolt escape to the target if they wanted too so why would you need a closure skill for duel wield?
Why does 2h or 1h+shield have a gap closer? As you've indicated it's entirely unnecessary.
Rhetorical questioning aside, it comes down to skill line utility, versatility, and build variety. It's lacking an option the other melee skill lines have, reducing it by those metrics.
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Obscure✭✭✭✭✭@dancing.in.the.webeb17_ESO
They do have ranged skills. Ranged skills that are much superior to Hidden Blade since they provide synergy with the skills in the line, as I mentioned a couple posts ago. They are called GAP CLOSERS. Dual Wield is not a ranged spec, Bow is ranged, D-Staff is ranged, R-Staff is ranged. Melee lines have ranged skills to facilitate closing the range gap, except Dual Wield does not. Templar has one, Nightblade has one, Dragonknight has one, Sorcerer has one, Two Handed has one, One Handed and Shield has one, yet Dual Wield does not.
The initial design of Hidden Blade was as a ranged interrupt, not a ranged DPS tool. The interrupt and subsequent disorient effect was removed a very long time ago and it's damage was boosted (then nerfed, then buffed again), turning it into a skill that could not be used in combination with any other skills in the line. Once upon a time it was the only skill in the line with any synergy with the Ruffian passive, and now there are no skills in that line with reliable synergy with the Ruffian passive (low % chance with Blind Flurry).
Hidden Blade and it's morphs are not a suitable substitute for a gap closer. Even if Dual Wield does have both a gap closer and a ranged DPS option, this confers no advantage to the skill line, and is actually mechanically sub optimal for the skill line.
It's a melee skill line, it needs to be designed like one. Improving Flurry to be a gap closer is the start. Hidden Blade should return to it's roots as an interrupt + soft CC option to create synergy with the Ruffian passive and other skills in the skill line, with the caveat of becoming a melee skill. As of right now it's a stand alone ranged DPS spam skill that doesn't belong.0 -
Jar_Ek✭✭✭✭✭Actually DW is a bit of a mess of a skill line with very little synergy in general and even less survivability. Unfortunately the dps of the skills do not make up for this as the skill line neither buffs the user or debuffs the opponent. Atm it has limited utility as an pbaoe execute. This is because bleeds do not always apply (reducing damage output), it has no shield, no real healing (partiality due to the bleed issues), and very limited internal synergy (low health bonus + aoe execute). In general 2h does almost everything better atm, with the exception of the aoe execute.1 -
Khivas_Carrick✭✭✭✭✭Flurry and it's morphs are PvE skills and dire ones at that so don't bank on them being removed. I could see hidden blade or that cloak skill being changed, but again I wouldn't bank on it.Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!0 -
danovic✭✭✭Templars have there own charge, Dragon knight pull the mob to them, nightblades teleport strike and sorc's could bolt escape to the target if they wanted too so why would you need a closure skill for duel wield?
Why does 2h or 1h+shield have a gap closer? As you've indicated it's entirely unnecessary.
Rhetorical questioning aside, it comes down to skill line utility, versatility, and build variety. It's lacking an option the other melee skill lines have, reducing it by those metrics.
No idea why 2 handed has one it doesn't really need one would be better to replace it with another area effect ability. sword and shield is mostly shield effect and its just a shield bash. Its also the only charge that actually works correctly and draws agro for tanking. Do you really want to tank with duel wield?0 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭@danovic
Once upon a time I tanked with it incredibly well (Ember Explosion + Cinder Storm + Elude + Host Bark), but that build ceased to exist. Thus I'm working on a new way to play Dual Wield and it just comes up short. It lacking a gap closer, and having limited utility, and virtually no skill synergy within the skill line makes it extremely difficult. Thus far the best it gets is spamming Flying Blade until a target gets low health, use a class skill gap closer (I use Empowering Chains for the next attack damage buff), and execute with Whirling Blade/Steel Tornado. There's nothing that works well within the line. Bow for instance has great synergy with Bombard for immobilising targets in Scortched Earth; no such synergy exists within the Dual Wield skill line. Twin Slashes is just not worth the slot, Flurry is mediocre at best, Whirlwind is great but lacks any other skill in the line to support it, Blade Cloak is nice for AoE defence, and Hidden Blade just doesn't make sense. A gap closer on Flurry would make it a much better skill, as for Twin Slashes and Hidden Blade, they need some reinvisioning with synergy with other actives and passives in the line in mind.
The gap closer option isn't necessary, but without it the skill line is simply odd and unattractive.0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It was the one thing about dw I really missed, so I went 2h instead. Agree with OP.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Jar_Ek✭✭✭✭✭Tbh I miss some survivability in DW. 2h has a heal and a Hot, and a scaling damage shield. DW has next to nothing and really doesn't seem to have any additional utility or damage to make up for it. I am not expecting to tank using DW, but some survival options would seem a must-have for a melee tree? Oh and yes a gap closer would be nice. And flurry is currently very sub par.1
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seanvwolf✭✭✭✭Flurry is good for something. It's the only 100% DoT skill that's a melee weapon (meaning even the initial attack is part of the DoT). This goes great with sorcerer skill Rune Cage.
If there was an added benefit of recasting Flurry and it's morphs immediately after a previous Flurry, such as armor break or a critical damage modifier, I think it would be perfect.0 -
Hexyl✭✭✭Need a backstab skill on DW.
Or at least, a skill who do direct damage without cast-time or to long animation, like Cleaves or Puncture.
NO, don't tell me, twin slashes do this.. this skill need to be reworked.
Flurry is good, replace twin slashes for a backstab !Edited by Hexyl on 29 May 2015 10:280 -
Brasseurfb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Dual Wield is a mess and needs outside help to even use its own synergies (Yes Ruffian, I'm speaking about you!). Twin Slash could be a good skill but it is rendered useless by 50% of ennemies immune to bleed, making the Snare or HoT irrelevant. Flurry is just bad, it makes you open to power attacks and it reduces your overall DpS. The Cloak is useless, because most of the time you are going to die super fast from bosses AoE dmg, the damage is ridiculous and duration is short. The only redeeming value is it's movement speed morph. Hidden blade is not bad but has no synergies with the other skills and Steel Tornado is the only valid skill in that skill line.
Giving dual wield a movement skill and a stun/silence garrote kind of move would be a good start.0