Something I will never understand about Ultimate Generation

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO · May 2015

Why do I need to tag with a light AA first for the darn counter to start counting?

I can see it work fluidly for low ping but if you have any ping because you're an oversea player, it's hella annoying when combined with latency-heavy animation canceling and super annoying "WEapon Sheathing" that refuses to input any command while the sheathing animation is happening unless I force a light attack or block instead. Animation canceling is kinda hard to work around if we factor in any latency but Ultimate generation forcing a quick tick every 5-6 seconds in so it can keep regeneration or it will stop every 20-30 points? Why?

Valymer · May 2015

Because people used to be able to generate ridiculous amounts of ultimate by utilizing passives, sets, or just sheer numbers of critical strikes. Ever seen a DK with 3 banners up? Well, you probably won't now. And people were chain casting devouring swarm making them damn near unkillable in laggy situations.

Trust me, the new system is a lot better. Tanks couldn't generate ultimate to save their lives before, now shield bashing and I think blocking both generate ultimate so it is a lot more fair to everyone.

Shunravi · May 2015

My tanks Ult gen us actually worse... But right on the other counts.

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO · May 2015

Valymer wrote: »

Because people used to be able to generate ridiculous amounts of ultimate by utilizing passives, sets, or just sheer numbers of critical strikes. Ever seen a DK with 3 banners up? Well, you probably won't now. And people were chain casting devouring swarm making them damn near unkillable in laggy situations.

Trust me, the new system is a lot better. Tanks couldn't generate ultimate to save their lives before, now shield bashing and I think blocking both generate ultimate so it is a lot more fair to everyone.

Passive and set stacking is outside the point though.

What I want to know is why, out of every possible action, only ONE will toggle on the ability to begin the 3/sec ultimate generation.

"Light/Heavy Attacking"

It doesn't matter if you were in-combat for 5 seconds. If you don't "Tap" once, you don't start to generate ultimate.

This isn't much of a problem when you are in a dungeon and someone is tanking so you can tap with a range attack to start it.
IT isn't much of a problem when you go around killing one enemy at a time outside.

But when you want to say, train a melee weapon when range is your primary skill set or is AoEing around, it becomes a huge annoyance because you probably miss about 20-30 ultimate being generated between fights.

Valymer · May 2015

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Because people used to be able to generate ridiculous amounts of ultimate by utilizing passives, sets, or just sheer numbers of critical strikes. Ever seen a DK with 3 banners up? Well, you probably won't now. And people were chain casting devouring swarm making them damn near unkillable in laggy situations.

Trust me, the new system is a lot better. Tanks couldn't generate ultimate to save their lives before, now shield bashing and I think blocking both generate ultimate so it is a lot more fair to everyone.

Passive and set stacking is outside the point though.

What I want to know is why, out of every possible action, only ONE will toggle on the ability to begin the 3/sec ultimate generation.

"Light/Heavy Attacking"

It doesn't matter if you were in-combat for 5 seconds. If you don't "Tap" once, you don't start to generate ultimate.

This isn't much of a problem when you are in a dungeon and someone is tanking so you can tap with a range attack to start it.
IT isn't much of a problem when you go around killing one enemy at a time outside.

But when you want to say, train a melee weapon when range is your primary skill set or is AoEing around, it becomes a huge annoyance because you probably miss about 20-30 ultimate being generated between fights.

Nothing is outside the point, you have to consider everything when you are talking about game balance.

You can't just look at one skill or mechanic in isolation and say, "Well this doesn't seem overpowered." You have to look at all the combinations of skills, gear, and mechanics that are possible, because players will quickly find the optimal one and if it is overpowered then you've failed at game balance.

Shunravi wrote: »

My tanks Ult gen us actually worse... But right on the other counts.

Hmm, is that because you are a nightblade? I'll admit I don't know many of those, I was mainly thinking about templar tanks.

Didn't DK ultimate regen bonus (the class passive or whatever it was) get changed anyway with 1.6?

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO · May 2015

Valymer wrote: »

Nothing is outside the point, you have to consider everything when you are talking about game balance.

You can't just look at one skill or mechanic in isolation and say, "Well this doesn't seem overpowered." You have to look at all the combinations of skills, gear, and mechanics that are possible, because players will quickly find the optimal one and if it is overpowered then you've failed at game balance.

You're over analyzing a simple questions. I know about how you can stack and get heroism and stuffs and how it's good we have minor-major buff now.

But that has nothing to do with why the whole "Ultimate will now start generate" only works if you slap a normal attack at least once and will remain for 6 seconds. Like, if you have no ping at all, all you have to do is mash left-click while using a skill and your ultimate will now starts to regenerate right away. If you're a range attacker, again, mash left-click.

However, it only working this way is just weird. Why is it that a light tap must be forced after the fight has already started just to begin the regeneration? If they want to avoid players from gaining ultimate for just being tagged then just set it to "Did damage with any attack" not "Left clicked once"

Shunravi · May 2015

Valymer wrote: »

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Because people used to be able to generate ridiculous amounts of ultimate by utilizing passives, sets, or just sheer numbers of critical strikes. Ever seen a DK with 3 banners up? Well, you probably won't now. And people were chain casting devouring swarm making them damn near unkillable in laggy situations.

Trust me, the new system is a lot better. Tanks couldn't generate ultimate to save their lives before, now shield bashing and I think blocking both generate ultimate so it is a lot more fair to everyone.

Passive and set stacking is outside the point though.

What I want to know is why, out of every possible action, only ONE will toggle on the ability to begin the 3/sec ultimate generation.

"Light/Heavy Attacking"

It doesn't matter if you were in-combat for 5 seconds. If you don't "Tap" once, you don't start to generate ultimate.

This isn't much of a problem when you are in a dungeon and someone is tanking so you can tap with a range attack to start it.
IT isn't much of a problem when you go around killing one enemy at a time outside.

But when you want to say, train a melee weapon when range is your primary skill set or is AoEing around, it becomes a huge annoyance because you probably miss about 20-30 ultimate being generated between fights.

Nothing is outside the point, you have to consider everything when you are talking about game balance.

You can't just look at one skill or mechanic in isolation and say, "Well this doesn't seem overpowered." You have to look at all the combinations of skills, gear, and mechanics that are possible, because players will quickly find the optimal one and if it is overpowered then you've failed at game balance.

Shunravi wrote: »

My tanks Ult gen us actually worse... But right on the other counts.

Hmm, is that because you are a nightblade? I'll admit I don't know many of those, I was mainly thinking about templar tanks.

Didn't DK ultimate regen bonus (the class passive or whatever it was) get changed anyway with 1.6?

Yea, I'm nightblde

it's worse, but not by much. The balance of how it used to be was, for me, pretty good when it came down to it... Every other class had* armor and shield buffs that the Nightblade couldn't access. The ability to gain Ult so fast kinda balanced it between tanks. But for the rest of the balance... Well, I miss being solo veil. But I suppose things are better.

*now any shadow ability grants the major buffs. And we can use bone shield for a weapon damage bubble. So that's good I guess.

Valymer · May 2015

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Nothing is outside the point, you have to consider everything when you are talking about game balance.

You can't just look at one skill or mechanic in isolation and say, "Well this doesn't seem overpowered." You have to look at all the combinations of skills, gear, and mechanics that are possible, because players will quickly find the optimal one and if it is overpowered then you've failed at game balance.

You're over analyzing a simple questions. I know about how you can stack and get heroism and stuffs and how it's good we have minor-major buff now.

But that has nothing to do with why the whole "Ultimate will now start generate" only works if you slap a normal attack at least once and will remain for 6 seconds. Like, if you have no ping at all, all you have to do is mash left-click while using a skill and your ultimate will now starts to regenerate right away. If you're a range attacker, again, mash left-click.

However, it only working this way is just weird. Why is it that a light tap must be forced after the fight has already started just to begin the regeneration? If they want to avoid players from gaining ultimate for just being tagged then just set it to "Did damage with any attack" not "Left clicked once"

I mean, is it really that hard to just throw a light attack in there every 10 seconds or so? It seems like you are making this out to be a lot bigger issue than it really is.

Yes, sometimes when I am spamming Impulse only I notice that I'm not building ultimate. But how often is that? If you are grinding, then you are pulling with light attacks, so you should be gaining ultimate like crazy.

I live in Japan and have ~200 latency to the game server at all times, but I have no trouble animation cancelling like a boss. What is your in-game latency?

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO · May 2015

Valymer wrote: »

I mean, is it really that hard to just throw a light attack in there every 10 seconds or so? It seems like you are making this out to be a lot bigger issue than it really is.

Yes, sometimes when I am spamming Impulse only I notice that I'm not building ultimate. But how often is that? If you are grinding, then you are pulling with light attacks, so you should be gaining ultimate like crazy.

I live in Japan and have ~200 latency to the game server at all times, but I have no trouble animation cancelling like a boss. What is your in-game latency?

Thailand
330

If mashing left click was the only thing I have to do, it wouldn't be an issue but with weapon swap, constant annoying weapon sheathing and the run state bug, this is another major annoyance added on top.

Cody · May 2015

if you cant get off a light attack in your battle that's on you. it takes literally less than a second. Even a block caster can Light attack and get their block back up very quickly

Valymer · May 2015

Hmm yeah 330 would be a bit tougher.

First I'd download and try Battleping, you can test it for free (it deactivates after 20 minutes until you sign up and pay for it) and it should lower your ping at least 15-20 ms if not more. When you set it up, choose the battleping server in Texas that you have the best ping to, because the NA server is in Texas (assuming you aren't EU).

When I played with a mouse, I macro'd light attack to my spammable nuke which worked pretty well (that was 1.5 though), but now I use an Xbone controller so I just animation cancel manually with that, it's not too bad for me.

What class are you, btw? I try to keep all my main abilities on my primary bar to minimize weapon swapping because it is still very unresponsive, but you will still have to switch sometimes. What is your rotation?

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO · May 2015

Valymer wrote: »

When I played with a mouse, I macro'd light attack to my spammable nuke which worked pretty well (that was 1.5 though), but now I use an Xbone controller so I just animation cancel manually with that, it's not too bad for me.

What class are you, btw? I try to keep all my main abilities on my primary bar to minimize weapon swapping because it is still very unresponsive, but you will still have to switch sometimes. What is your rotation?

It was a huge issue when I wanted to grind melee weapon since animation canceling with ping pretty much forces you to block and 3-block-2 is a lot more responsive since you already attack tapped at the start than 3-block-aa-2 that can even cause stamina waste on pointless lag-shield-bash that doesn't even proc the ult generation.

Templar.

Main (Now dest staff grinding) - Impulse, Puncturing, Reflective Light (For 10% spell crit), Jesus beam, BoL
Secondary (Healing staff) - Radiant Aura, Luminious Shard, Channeled focus, Extended Ritual, BoL.

Weapon swap is whenever the boss or anything that deals above 40% my health per hit appear, in dungeon or I need the focus + RA for additional source of magicka. Pain in the butt that weapon swap won't work within the first 0.5 seconds of casting anything so applying DoT -> buff -> Apply DoT rotation fails most of the time if I try to go too fast and having to find the time to throw in a normal attack while at it is a major annoyance when the ult regeneration should just work whenever you're in combat.

Valymer · May 2015

With melee on my templar I've been working on light attacking with 2h right at the end of Puncturing (well the Biting Jabs morph). It's all about timing, which can be frustrating with a high ping -- believe me, I know.

The problem with blocking to cancel is that it costs you dps. Is there any way that you could light attack instead of blocking?

If you are block-casting impulse, you should be building ultimate anyways just from holding block. But on single target bosses, you really should be trying to weave in light attacks rather than block because they add to your dps rather than reduce it, and they are probably faster anyway.

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO · May 2015

Valymer wrote: »

With melee on my templar I've been working on light attacking with 2h right at the end of Puncturing (well the Biting Jabs morph). It's all about timing, which can be frustrating with a high ping -- believe me, I know.

The problem with blocking to cancel is that it costs you dps. Is there any way that you could light attack instead of blocking?

If you are block-casting impulse, you should be building ultimate anyways just from holding block. But on single target bosses, you really should be trying to weave in light attacks rather than block because they add to your dps rather than reduce it, and they are probably faster anyway.

Block casting is for when I use Reflective light which is range and the crit buff lasts 6-10 seconds anyway based on morph.

I don't spam impulse. I only use it for first proc and to force DoT and once in awhile, as a finisher for some extra magicka if Focus constant regen isn't enough. Puncturing sweep does better since it heals as well anyway but can't block cast that or else it will stop the channeling.

The problem comes when I'm mashing Puncturing sweep and left click at the same time. Say when I'm soloing dungeon on normal mode on large pull. Ult regen will proc after the initial tap to lure and force LoS but after that, I'm spamming puncturing sweep. Unless I pause for a moment and left click, my puncturing sweep spam will prevent any light tap from being thrown out. It's already a channeling and with high ping, it leaves almost no room for the light tap to be used after the casting is done. I usually just disregard the 2nd or 3rd ult generation proc and leave only one target alive so I can regenerate my ult.

The act of blocking an attack or left click mashing already procs the ult gain anyway. Might as well just make it starts right after you deal damage. There's no reason to keep it like this other than to just remove a certain Quality of Life from the game mechanic as ult generation not being toggling up isn't really something that happens in dungeon or pvp where a quick tap will always happen since you're no longer alone so you have more room to force a light attack or even heavies to regen magicka/stamina.

bertenburnyb16_ESO · May 2015

remember pre release when they were talking about the finesse system for ultimates, ow how its dumbed down