Official Discussion Thread for "Update 6 Guide: The Justice System"

FoxyKitten · January 2015

So will this be like Skyriim where your crime is only known in the Hold you committed it in, or will the guards in all of Tamriel know you are wanted?

Gamer90eb17_ESO1 · January 2015

"Did someone steal your sweetroll?"

Mr_Luscan · January 2015

Yes. A Thieves Guild will be needed and maybe a Volunteer Police to look after those thieves. Sigh up with the Capt of the Guard. PvP only possible among those who HAVE the skill list for either thief or cop. That way, us Law-Abiding citizens will not have to be looking at every player to see if they will be attacked or robbed. NPC Bad-Guys can attack at will, as is normal now.

I also think they could revive the Mage & Fighter Guild quest line. I'd like to have more of theirs. Also have those pirates in the oceans around us as well as other sea-faring types. How about some ship-ship combat? Chase them down, lay-to alongside and board her!

Points being there are all those unexplored areas of Tamriel, and there is so much that they have to work with that this game can only get better.

gtirwb17_ESO · January 2015

Quite a few players play as "lawful good" is there really going to be any benefits for that style of play. What is worse is this style of play mean an off balance in the world of Tamriel for those players.

Note there are a large group that do not play PvP just because they like helping others players instead of killing them.

Lawful good have a choice and not break the law, but does that mean a harder progression for crafting due to limited looting of crates sacks etc, let alone motifs.

Ok I acknowledge that this is a minority group in the game, but still people who play lawful good characters do so for a reason, they do not break the law and would rather leave the game if killing or stealing is the way to progress.

I expect the PvP trolls to have a field day with this post, but keep it constructive please. This is just a post to the Devs for consideration which they probably already have thought about.

Mr_Luscan · January 2015

I don't PvP either and that goes back to my Ultima Online days more than 12 years ago.

Ysne58 · January 2015

Some of the quests have been altered to require criminal activity to progress, are you going to offer alternatives to those quests.

scamp235 · January 2015

Elder_III wrote: »

^it's realistic, and you have to be caught to have any penalty anyways. You want a life of crime with zero consequences?

If they start putting things like Racial Motifs in treasure chests. Right now the chests are rather useless except for vendor fodder.

Smaxx · January 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't even know why the hell this is even being "released" with unkillable guards why even try to run I know from PvP that guard NPCs are not pushovers.

Because the other way around won't work until the PvP component is in. And that's a different beast to balance, so for me it's totally fine to get this step by step.

You also have to consider not all areas being meant for the same level of players. Just imagine some level 10comitting crimes in Daggerfall or Davon's Watch. His VR10 healer buddy would have absolutely no issues to just outheal any guard and there's nothing other players could do against.

I know similar situations from Eve Online. Players can opt in to join a faction's militia, essentially enabling open PvP against other militias (as well as the NPC military). Problem there: As long as there's no strong opposition by players, they'll just "tank" faction NPCs indefinitely, which on itself feels just off and kills immersion just as do immortal NPCs (but at the same time it allows people to abuse the system, e.g. camping in enemy territory).

Ysne58 wrote: »

Some of the quests have been altered to require criminal activity to progress, are you going to offer alternatives to those quests.

They've always had more or less criminal aspects in them, like getting into other people's houses, taking their stuff as evidence, etc. In the end most quests make you a vigilant, so I consider it rather good that you've got a thin line to go between lawful and outlaw. You can't be the pure white knight and that's great.

Dooflatchie · January 2015

I get the feeling it's going to be constant assassination of NPCs all around me and it's going to be eyeroll-inducing.

PlayaRage · January 2015

When will update 6 be released?

16BitForestCat · January 2015

Pleasepleaseplease leave all the "justice" PVP stuff to Cyrodiil. I hate PVP; that's why I've never set so much as a toe in Cyrodiil.

Why do I hate PVP aspects? Because other players abuse them constantly in other games. I play as fairly virtuous characters and criminals alike, but I still don't want other players able to report crimes, or to inflict "justice" as justiciars or whatever. It'll just get abused non-stop. Let that be a thing in Cyrodiil if people want it, sure, but leave it out of non-PVP zones. I love ESO because in PVE zones, I don't have to worry about player harassment much outside the chatbox, and report-and-ignore fixes that. Please don't change it.

I'd also like it if bounties only applied to the region where the crime was committed, like Skyrim. It was a great system and made more sense than everyone everywhere somehow able to peg you as a thief, no matter how far you traveled.

Daily limited fence selling? Not a great idea, unless the limit is actually fairly high and only applies per fence, not across all fences. Also not a great idea unless you plan to give players a "stolen items" tab for inventory and bank so we can keep track, AND double the number of purchasable slots in both bank and inventory to hold all these stolen goods we can't sell yet. But I'd rather see the limit done away with entirely. It becomes too much of a daily grind otherwise.

Gokken · January 2015

16BitForestCat wrote: »

Pleasepleaseplease leave all the "justice" PVP stuff to Cyrodiil. I hate PVP; that's why I've never set so much as a toe in Cyrodiil.

Why do I hate PVP aspects? Because other players abuse them constantly in other games. I play as fairly virtuous characters and criminals alike, but I still don't want other players able to report crimes, or to inflict "justice" as justiciars or whatever. It'll just get abused non-stop. Let that be a thing in Cyrodiil if people want it, sure, but leave it out of non-PVP zones. I love ESO because in PVE zones, I don't have to worry about player harassment much outside the chatbox, and report-and-ignore fixes that. Please don't change it.

I'd also like it if bounties only applied to the region where the crime was committed, like Skyrim. It was a great system and made more sense than everyone everywhere somehow able to peg you as a thief, no matter how far you traveled.

Daily limited fence selling? Not a great idea, unless the limit is actually fairly high and only applies per fence, not across all fences. Also not a great idea unless you plan to give players a "stolen items" tab for inventory and bank so we can keep track, AND double the number of purchasable slots in both bank and inventory to hold all these stolen goods we can't sell yet. But I'd rather see the limit done away with entirely. It becomes too much of a daily grind otherwise.

100% agree I do also find your post both insightful and awesome, but according to the voting system it can only be one

Narttu · January 2015

So long as ganking and ghost towns don't become a thing, I'll be glad to see this update. The biggest reason I don't play WoW very often is because I'm not a big PvPer and being camped is not my idea of fun.
Also seriously hope that stealing from other players will not be possible, unless there is a limit on what can be stolen from players. I, for one, do not want to be ganked and robbed of half the herbs, wood or ores that I spent hours obtaining.

Smaxx · January 2015

If you haven't done so already, try the patch on PTS. Once you try to kill one or two citizens in the open, they'll start to call the guard. People would have to organize zo "clear" any part of a town, but even then the guards would take them out more sooner than later. I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Feynn · January 2015

So, it happened. One of my friends who is on the PTS just found out that the house he has been using for roleplay has been locked and occupied by two NPCs. In other words, he has been evicted!

I think the Justice System is great and it will bring a lot of new fun stuff. At the same time, I would appreciate it if Zenimax could keep letting us roleplay in the in-game houses without accruing bounties. One solution could be opening up the houses which are currently inaccessible. Otherwise, the best solution is called "player housing" (please please please). Sooner rather than later.

Also, I am a bit worried that the Justice System will turn *everyone* into thieves and criminal scum, since there are really no incentives for remaining law-abiding citizens.

CodexMMO · January 2015

Feynn wrote: »

the best solution is called "player housing" (please please please). Sooner rather than later.

This please!!

dylan_reid88b16_ESO · January 2015

After reading this update, I'm truly excited to return to Tamriel. I guess one thing I'm curious about is how the new crime system will affect vampires and werewolves.

My main is a level 4 vampire Khajit nightblade, so I'm unsure if I should find some poor soul to drain before the patch goes live. Similarly, I wonder if transforming into a werewolf near any sort of settlement will count as a crime. I'd imagine that if any of these possibilities were being implemented that they'd outline them in the guide, but a part of me still wonders if they'll take a page from the previous Elder Scrolls titles.

I'm also a bit concerned about the idea of players constantly killing quest NPC's and making players pay them to stop. Honestly, I can see this being a big issue at first if there's decent gold to be made.

Either way, looking forward to seeing how the new changes will alter the current game play.

Feynn · January 2015

dylan_reid88b16_ESO wrote: »

I'm also a bit concerned about the idea of players constantly killing quest NPC's and making players pay them to stop. Honestly, I can see this being a big issue at first if there's decent gold to be made.

I have not played on the PTS, but I am fairly sure you will not be able to kill quest NPCs. That would be so game-breaking that Zenimax would have thought about it (let's give them some credit, come on). And, in the rather off chance something like that were possible, Zenimax would certainly take serious actions against players who tried to make a business out of this sort of harassment. So, no worries there.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · January 2015

Smaxx wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't even know why the hell this is even being "released" with unkillable guards why even try to run I know from PvP that guard NPCs are not pushovers.

Because the other way around won't work until the PvP component is in. And that's a different beast to balance, so for me it's totally fine to get this step by step.

You also have to consider not all areas being meant for the same level of players. Just imagine some level 10comitting crimes in Daggerfall or Davon's Watch. His VR10 healer buddy would have absolutely no issues to just outheal any guard and there's nothing other players could do against.

I know similar situations from Eve Online. Players can opt in to join a faction's militia, essentially enabling open PvP against other militias (as well as the NPC military). Problem there: As long as there's no strong opposition by players, they'll just "tank" faction NPCs indefinitely, which on itself feels just off and kills immersion just as do immortal NPCs (but at the same time it allows people to abuse the system, e.g. camping in enemy territory).

Ysne58 wrote: »

Some of the quests have been altered to require criminal activity to progress, are you going to offer alternatives to those quests.

They've always had more or less criminal aspects in them, like getting into other people's houses, taking their stuff as evidence, etc. In the end most quests make you a vigilant, so I consider it rather good that you've got a thin line to go between lawful and outlaw. You can't be the pure white knight and that's great.

Yes you do make a great point but to limit all players to unkillable guards and just saying well don't get caught like you planned it in the first place is short sighted friends helping each other is the point of any MMO to make it a fight if you got caught would make a ghost town many NPCs can't be robbed or killed and have a fast respon time so the town would never be guard less.

To everyone who thinks that thieves shouldn't be killers anyways it's not like the game sees the difference stealing or killing will get you a bounty when caught (killing always adds to your bounty even if their was no one else around) it's not like they have any quest of this that say you can't kill or you will fail (no quest at all) The Thieves Guild don't allow you to kill but so far (lv 12 in the thief skill) no guilds to join so no guild rules to follow.

I would love to hear from others on the PTS I found the whole Justice System very cool at first but with no story line, no quest, no stand out NPCs, no Powers and only one out of four passives that can be reasonably used outside of stealing it all feels empty would love to know what you guys thing about all this.

If you read this all Sithis is with you!!

16BitForestCat · January 2015

Gokken wrote: »

100% agree I do also find your post both insightful and awesome, but according to the voting system it can only be one

Thank you, friend! I'm not afraid of big game changes, but caution just doesn't hurt when there's a lot of potential for abuse or misuse.

Re: other comments: the PTS remarks about killing citizens and getting dogpiled by the guard are bringing me back to my Oblivion days, where after completing all quests for a region, I would kill every nonessential character so I could "own" all the cities and buildings and loot at will. The best fun was when the guards coming after me would get in each others' way and start brawling amongst themselves. I'm guessing that type of guard stupidity won't happen in ESO, but I'm pretty sure I'll still have a blast causing chaos on one of my murderous alts where I don't care how much I break the game.

bereso · March 2015

To lift the limit of selling stolen goods, it would be great to be able to also auction those items. Essentially creating a black market at the guild level.

bereso · March 2015

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

3. Will inadvertent use of AOE cause injury or death to town NPCs that result in a bounty?

Already had this happen. Fat fingered a number key in a crowd of guards and before I can sheath...character was massacred...

Quite brutal...for an oops...I meant to press the 'W' to move forward and not the '2'...

Wish there is a setting to turn off unsheathing and AOE spells or actions in towns.

Gotta be super careful walking through NPC areas.

penny-steelb16_ESO · March 2015

First off I would like to say I am having a ball with the Justice System. Being an avid role-player and seeing all the work that went into the many different objects that can be found around the world, I was ecstatic thinking of all the ways we could use/sell them in the role-play community. Then I came to discover that all the items except the cosmetic clothing pieces are bound on pick up.

I found myself terribly disappointed by this fact and was wondering if there was a reason these items were bound to the player even after they had been laundered, or if it was just an over sight? With all the effort, imagination and work that the team put into these props, it seems a shame that we can't use them to enrich our role-play experiences as well.

So I guess what I am asking if is ZOS would reconsider this feature and make the items trade able between players? If you could also look at the laundering system where-in a player could launder the item for less then it actual value giving him/her the opportunity to make a profit if the item is sold to another player...

Thanks in Advance.

//edited to add the last sentence.

bloodenragedb14_ESO · March 2015

will we ever be able to kill witnesses to lower our bounty. i mean if im in a one room house, and want to steal stuff, killing the inhabitants should remove the bounty

giinoz2011rwb17_ESO · March 2015

Hmm develop a perk line that can be used to stop pickpocketing on a player if theft becomes available against another player.
And have it go up in stages of per cent of risk being caught.
10, 20, 30...100%
A similar thing for Player owned houses.
at 100 percent any attempt to look at another NPC's inventory will be caught or attempt to break into a similarly protected house.
The player being targeted has the right to attack the criminal or the guards catch the criminal.
Any theft that is caught have a courier deliver the stolen items to their rightful owner
with a letter from the relevant faction judiciary.

Xinz'r · April 2015

Will there be option to hunt down players for their bounty?

Khivas_Carrick · May 2015

So, about that justice system PvP....