@ZOS_BrianWheeler , a quick word on your mention "..of a certain set" v.s. The Meteor Ultimate

Attorneyatlawl · March 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The meteor proc has a 5 second cooldown which should be checking a timer that is rooted on the player who has the armor on, however this particular set was checking against each individual target the player with the set damaged (every time they got damaged) resulting in many more meteor's than designed proc'ing from this set.

Thank you for making it clear I should no longer wear this set. While I dislike the many hours I devoted to running City of Ash only to have the "reward" Burning Spellweave armor set obsolete in 1.6 and now the Valkyn Skoria set rendered to impotence, I do appreciate the accurate description of what the item does so I can adjust my build accordingly.

If there are other hidden "features" associated with the other Unduanted sets or class skills in general, I would encourage and welcome explicit explanations to them as well.

(Points at signature) Wouldn't it be great if we had a better UI

?

Joy_Division · March 2015

Huntler wrote: »

I say this again, all of the sets had cooldowns guys, including the ones that didn't mention it. All it took was some testing. While I agree we need better information/tooltip warning, from what I am seeing this is a reasonable fix.

Must be nice to have the time to test out every set you come across in the game to determine what it does and does not do. I think the stacking another two pieces of spellpower will beat the benefits provided by this set. So we will see if this is a reasonable change. Now that I have accurate information it will make the whole testing thing reasonably efficient.

Jaerlach · March 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

I say this again, all of the sets had cooldowns guys, including the ones that didn't mention it. All it took was some testing. While I agree we need better information/tooltip warning, from what I am seeing this is a reasonable fix.

Must be nice to have the time to test out every set you come across in the game to determine what it does and does not do. I am fairly certain the stacking another two pieces of spellpower will beat the benefits provided by this set. So we will see if this is a reasonable change. Now that I have accurate information it will make the whole testing thing reasonably efficient.

Currently Skoria is better for single-target PVE DPS than stacking another single spellpower bonus, so this may not be as true as you think.

While the AOE performance of Skoria was clearly insane, meteor is often the 3rd or so highest-damage dealing effect for a PVE dot build in a pure single-target scenario, which is one in which the bug described by Brian SHOULD not have been having any effect.

If that is the case, Skoria will continue to be a staple dps set piece.

I appreciate that your conversation is PVP-oriented, but since meteor's effect is still AOE, its likely to still be quite effective.

Joy_Division · March 2015

Jaerlach wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

I say this again, all of the sets had cooldowns guys, including the ones that didn't mention it. All it took was some testing. While I agree we need better information/tooltip warning, from what I am seeing this is a reasonable fix.

Must be nice to have the time to test out every set you come across in the game to determine what it does and does not do. I am fairly certain the stacking another two pieces of spellpower will beat the benefits provided by this set. So we will see if this is a reasonable change. Now that I have accurate information it will make the whole testing thing reasonably efficient.

Currently Skoria is better for single-target PVE DPS than stacking another single spellpower bonus, so this may not be as true as you think.

While the AOE performance of Skoria was clearly insane, meteor is often the 3rd or so highest-damage dealing effect for a PVE dot build in a pure single-target scenario, which is one in which the bug described by Brian SHOULD not have been having any effect.

If that is the case, Skoria will continue to be a staple dps set piece.

I appreciate that your conversation is PVP-oriented, but since meteor's effect is still AOE, its likely to still be quite effective.

Maybe. My biggest gripe is having these hidden mechanics in the first place. Allowing months and months of gameplay, that was patently obvious that was breaking an intended game-feature, to continue that was consistent with the item's description is just bad. I don't mind adjusting as I am capable of doing it. I do mind the lack of information when it comes to item and skill functionality and wasting my time and game resources on the misleading information that is communicated to me. There is no excuse not to have "5 second cooldown" in the item's description, especially since this game has done away with many of the traditional cooldown mechanics in MMOs.

farrier_ESO · March 2015

Alexander Powerkill wrote: »

1: The set was working as you originally intended it and you are now changing it while praying to god buddha or anyone else that this fixes lag.

Or 2: You were extremely incompetent in your job and not identifying a "bug" for 6 months.

False dichotomy.

From the bug description, it's very obvious that this would never be intended to work that way. As others have pointed out, common sense also indicates this: why would it be designed to proc exponentially faster when you're hitting more people?

Not only would procing from every person hit increase the cast time, it would also increase server load with N^2.

Now, there are two critical rules of MMO design, which are etched deeply into the bedrock of every designer's understanding.

1) Never trust the client.
2) Never scale with N^2.

Unfortunately, both rules get broken, but only when absolutely required. So all collision detection beyond the coarsest zone-border stuff is performed by the untrustworthy client, because handling it serverside would be impossible. And position updates for multiple people in the same zone scale with N^2, because the movement of each person (N) gets sent to every other person (*N).

But you never, ever, EVER deliberately design a feature that scales with N^2 if there is any possible way to avoid it. In fact, this bug scaled worse than N^2, since: by being OP it increased the number of casters C using it; by reducing the time between hits per caster, it increased the number of hits per minute H; and then it used resources for each character hit N, rather than just the caster. So in the equation C * H * N it increased all three terms!

So clearly, it is not your option 1

Not all bugs get reported, ever. Those that do get reported can go unreported for years. This is no reflection on the abilities of the testers, or the maintainers. It is impossible to identify all bugs in any sizable programming project, let alone fix them. As an experiment, though, NASA did try. Their Software Assurance Technology Center at Goddard Space Center tried to make some bug-free code. They managed, using extremely intensive reviewing and testing methodologies, to reduce the errors in the code to an estimated one bug per ten thousand lines of code -- unimaginably good code -- but at a cost so prohibitive, they ruled that not even code for the shuttle program could use these coding methodologies. Typically, production code contains perhaps one bug in 50 to 200 lines. Now, WoW is 5.5Mlines. That suggests, optimistically speaking, there are about 27,500 bugs in WoW. Now, ESO won't be as big, as its codebase isn't as mature, but it'll be comparable.

How do people write so many bugs? Are they all *cretins*? No. In fact, many bugs come from doing everything correctly. It is perfectly correct to define a word as "a sequence of characters containing letters, maybe numbers and other stuff, but punctuation, or whitespace"; and equally fine to define a name as "a kind of word"; but even though those two things are perfectly rational and correct, you just made a bug because names can contain apostrophes, spaces and hyphens. It's perfectly correct to assume that time only ever runs forward, by about a second every second, but then you just made a bug, because in the world of computers, time isn't linear, nor even flowing in a guaranteed direction. And so on.

So, anyway, lowest-priority bugs at the bottom of the to-do list can last decades. Indefinitely. This is no reflection on the abilities of the maintainers, but just means that there's always going to be something more important to do than fix the little stuff. New features. Then fixing bugs in the new features.

Bugs that affect more people, more seriously, get pushed to the top of the list, and (all other things being equal) will tend to get fixed sooner. List position (aka bug priority) is not static, because other bugfixes and features, and changes in player tactics, mean the impact of a bug changes over time.

Given this bug has recently been associated both with performance issues and was getting exploited to heck and back, it's a very good candidate for a priority change. Given this bug was not affecting many people, and would pass through testing with only a few people without being noticed, it may only just have been added to the list.

Neither option is indicative of incompetence, though.

f047ys3v3n · March 2015

First note: don't you think it's hilarious that were talking about nerfing an armor set to alleviate game lag. Did we run out of firefly's and dear to vanish. Perhaps if particle effects are so pretty that they bog down servers we should make them less pretty instead of, the direction each update has gone, more pretty.

As for the Valken, I just picked up the shoulders for the first time yesterday. Lol, guess I'll go cry in my soup now. I'm still sadder about my infallible aether no longer being the bees knees. I worked a lot harder for that. Valken was just a matter of being really unlucky for the first 200 or so keys.

On another note, does anybody else think it's sad that elite gear is really a negligible advantage over green drop sets. Realistically a person could have no gear from sets that are not purchasable or craft-able in this game and be at most at a 5% disadvantage. If said person ground their eyes out instead of actually running content they would have a massive advantage over their hypothetical rival who completed had stuff because of the crap XP from hard stuff.

BTW, ran Hel-ra today. XP is still underwhelming. 60k xp I think it was. Realistically given the time it takes to form groups even though a run is only 15-20min I think questing would still be a more xp rewarding activity.

Rylana · March 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

I say this again, all of the sets had cooldowns guys, including the ones that didn't mention it. All it took was some testing. While I agree we need better information/tooltip warning, from what I am seeing this is a reasonable fix.

Must be nice to have the time to test out every set you come across in the game to determine what it does and does not do. I am fairly certain the stacking another two pieces of spellpower will beat the benefits provided by this set. So we will see if this is a reasonable change. Now that I have accurate information it will make the whole testing thing reasonably efficient.

Currently Skoria is better for single-target PVE DPS than stacking another single spellpower bonus, so this may not be as true as you think.

While the AOE performance of Skoria was clearly insane, meteor is often the 3rd or so highest-damage dealing effect for a PVE dot build in a pure single-target scenario, which is one in which the bug described by Brian SHOULD not have been having any effect.

If that is the case, Skoria will continue to be a staple dps set piece.

I appreciate that your conversation is PVP-oriented, but since meteor's effect is still AOE, its likely to still be quite effective.

Maybe. My biggest gripe is having these hidden mechanics in the first place. Allowing months and months of gameplay, that was patently obvious that was breaking an intended game-feature, to continue that was consistent with the item's description is just bad. I don't mind adjusting as I am capable of doing it. I do mind the lack of information when it comes to item and skill functionality and wasting my time and game resources on the misleading information that is communicated to me. There is no excuse not to have "5 second cooldown" in the item's description, especially since this game has done away with many of the traditional cooldown mechanics in MMOs.

Be real, the only reason you went to the trouble to get the set is because someone told you it was like the old broken twin sisters bug, and just like everyone else you had to have the new broken thing.

You really have no argument to be made here. There was a very very very good reason why everyone was using the set, with caltrops or any fast paced aoe DOT.

Go ahead and play the indignant card while youre at it, everyone reading this knows I am right, you have no right to be outraged as everyone here (including you) knows it was only a matter of time before broken OP mechanic 32482374 was finally fixed.

azoriangaming · March 2015

Juraigr wrote: »

Nerfing skoria means mag dks will suck even more

agreed

Scotia · March 2015

They fixed something that was OPed in certain situations, I agree with the fix. Stop complaining about a game mechanic that was abused for so long.

Lhorion · March 2015

wrathofrraath wrote: »

Juraigr wrote: »

Nerfing skoria means mag dks will suck even more

the only caster Dks that suck are the ones that havent figured out how to weave molten whip and still use force pulse

So you think there is no good magica DK with destro? Funny

Ezykil · March 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Pecivilis wrote: »

Some ground based AoEs are DoTs ( Liquid Lightning, wall of elements etc), there for it is working as intended in that aspect.

Channeled abilities I on on the fence about, semantically they are damage over time (duration of channel). However, I am willing to confess that they could take the proc away without negatively effecting the set's worth to much. Just no more procing of my heavy lightning staff attacks

I don't really agree with those spells being considered DoTs.

Damage over Time implies a spell that stays on the target after casting it, while AoEs such as caltrops are simply area denial/persistent AoEs (effect does not stay after you move out of it).

AoEs that create DoTs are another thing entirely (e.g. Poison Spray, Elemental Ring, Fiery breath etc).

It usually says "deals X damage over time" on the tooltip on these skills.

But for instance, on Caltrops/Lightning Flood etc it is: "deals X damage every second" (note: not over time). Same with channeled abilities.

There is a difference.

Ok, so....if the ability does "damage over time" it's considered a DoT....even if it doesn't stick to the target.....anything that does damage over time is considered a dot...ground-based aoe works a little different than a single target dot....but that doesn't necessarily not make it a DoT....it's still doing damage over time...lol....

wrathofrraath · March 2015

Lhorion wrote: »

wrathofrraath wrote: »

Juraigr wrote: »

Nerfing skoria means mag dks will suck even more

the only caster Dks that suck are the ones that havent figured out how to weave molten whip and still use force pulse

So you think there is no good magica DK with destro? Funny

lol what ? I can't speak for PVP because i don't PVP. In PVE I have molten whip, engulfing flames, and burning embers on my main bar, molten buffs those spells with a spell power bonus and every build I've seen uses force pulse in place of molten whip. My molten whip does 1k more raw damage than force pulse and procs burning, dmg is increased by engulfing flames, and the range is 10 meters now. Of course destro/ destro because of the critical chance on heavy attacks so cast molten arms hold the attack a bit longer than a med weave but not a full heavy cast molten whip and right click. Consistent 5 mil dmg parces on the Serpent fight, Magicka DK is not dead in PVE. I cannot speak for PVP because I am not knowledgeable at all in the realm of PVP.

DDuke · March 2015

Ezykil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Pecivilis wrote: »

Some ground based AoEs are DoTs ( Liquid Lightning, wall of elements etc), there for it is working as intended in that aspect.

Channeled abilities I on on the fence about, semantically they are damage over time (duration of channel). However, I am willing to confess that they could take the proc away without negatively effecting the set's worth to much. Just no more procing of my heavy lightning staff attacks

I don't really agree with those spells being considered DoTs.

Damage over Time implies a spell that stays on the target after casting it, while AoEs such as caltrops are simply area denial/persistent AoEs (effect does not stay after you move out of it).

AoEs that create DoTs are another thing entirely (e.g. Poison Spray, Elemental Ring, Fiery breath etc).

It usually says "deals X damage over time" on the tooltip on these skills.

But for instance, on Caltrops/Lightning Flood etc it is: "deals X damage every second" (note: not over time). Same with channeled abilities.

There is a difference.

Ok, so....if the ability does "damage over time" it's considered a DoT....even if it doesn't stick to the target.....anything that does damage over time is considered a dot...ground-based aoe works a little different than a single target dot....but that doesn't necessarily not make it a DoT....it's still doing damage over time...lol....

No, dmg over time (DoT) is exactly something that sticks on the target. A debuff, if you will.

There are AoEs that cause a DoT effect (Acid Spray, Elemental Ring come to mind, as well as DoT weapon procs from AoEs like Steel Tornado), but Persistent AoEs can't really be labeled as DoTs (and aren't, in other MMOs) as they disappear immediately once you move out of the area (thus not really being damage "over time")

For instance, if there was a morph for caltrops called "Cutting Caltrops" that caused everyone entering the area to bleed for X seconds (even after exiting the area), then it'd be a DoT.

It's important to make the distinction, else you just wind up dumbing down the game.

Joy_Division · March 2015

Rylana wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

I say this again, all of the sets had cooldowns guys, including the ones that didn't mention it. All it took was some testing. While I agree we need better information/tooltip warning, from what I am seeing this is a reasonable fix.

Must be nice to have the time to test out every set you come across in the game to determine what it does and does not do. I am fairly certain the stacking another two pieces of spellpower will beat the benefits provided by this set. So we will see if this is a reasonable change. Now that I have accurate information it will make the whole testing thing reasonably efficient.

Currently Skoria is better for single-target PVE DPS than stacking another single spellpower bonus, so this may not be as true as you think.

While the AOE performance of Skoria was clearly insane, meteor is often the 3rd or so highest-damage dealing effect for a PVE dot build in a pure single-target scenario, which is one in which the bug described by Brian SHOULD not have been having any effect.

If that is the case, Skoria will continue to be a staple dps set piece.

I appreciate that your conversation is PVP-oriented, but since meteor's effect is still AOE, its likely to still be quite effective.

Maybe. My biggest gripe is having these hidden mechanics in the first place. Allowing months and months of gameplay, that was patently obvious that was breaking an intended game-feature, to continue that was consistent with the item's description is just bad. I don't mind adjusting as I am capable of doing it. I do mind the lack of information when it comes to item and skill functionality and wasting my time and game resources on the misleading information that is communicated to me. There is no excuse not to have "5 second cooldown" in the item's description, especially since this game has done away with many of the traditional cooldown mechanics in MMOs.

Be real, the only reason you went to the trouble to get the set is because someone told you it was like the old broken twin sisters bug, and just like everyone else you had to have the new broken thing.

You really have no argument to be made here. There was a very very very good reason why everyone was using the set, with caltrops or any fast paced aoe DOT.

Go ahead and play the indignant card while youre at it, everyone reading this knows I am right, you have no right to be outraged as everyone here (including you) knows it was only a matter of time before broken OP mechanic 32482374 was finally fixed.

The I-am-always-right-and-know-everything tone in every single one of your posts does you no credit.

wrathofrraath · March 2015

Also it is totally possible to out-DPS skoria in single target as a DK, especially now that its been fixed.

f047ys3v3n · April 2015

wrathofrraath wrote: »

Also it is totally possible to out-DPS skoria in single target as a DK, especially now that its been fixed.

I agree with this. Skoria is worth a max 1.4k dps on single target. Mephalas is worth a max .93k but is much more likely to get you near that max. The other 2 peices to an infalible 3 piece you might be wearing will do about .8k, will be reliable, and will boost some AOE from the increased crit chance. A simple spell damage set is worth about .5k, will always get you there, and will boost your dps in aoe situations where mephalas does nothing.

The bottom line is that Skoria was always about AOE and with the cool down on mobs is probably not worth anything. Builds really had to be optimized for it for single target to pay, these builds were required to be melee, and realistically melee is about stam now anyway.

The bigger issue is that Skoria was one of the few elite gear sets anybody bothered to work for or use in the post 1.6 world and this change certainly ends this as you are misinformed if you are spending effort trying to acquire this now. I submit that even the elite gear sets that are not completely worthless such as vicious, mephalas, and infallible are not worth the effort to attempt to acquire. With 38 unique sanctum completes in that last month I am obviously well supported in this opinion. I am not sure of the reason for the hate on these gear sets as everything except master weapons received a 1.6 nerf but it is pretty clear that its all about chasing the champion grind if you want to be more powerfull.

THERE IS NOT ELITE GEAR IN THIS GAME WORTH THE EFFORT OF ACQUISITION EXCEPT MASTERS AND I EXPECT IT WILL BE NERFED TO FIT THE PATTERN.

farrier_ESO · April 2015

Alexander Powerkill wrote: »

Farrier-eso feel free to keep kissing the devs ass if you want but there is no way, I REPEAT, NO WAY, that they did not know about this "bug" within first month this was active. You and everyone else knows that there were numerous mentions of this "bug" and numerous build videos that took advantage of it. Are you really so naive that you believe they had no knowledge of this til recently?

If so my friend then you are the fool.

Read again the part about bug priority levels changing according to how many people they affected.
If a bug gets exploited more, it gets nerfed faster. Congratulations on being part of the problem

I am also amused that you complain that it was a bug they should have known about, and yet complain that they fixed the bug.

Lhorion · April 2015

wrathofrraath wrote: »

Lhorion wrote: »

wrathofrraath wrote: »

Juraigr wrote: »

Nerfing skoria means mag dks will suck even more

the only caster Dks that suck are the ones that havent figured out how to weave molten whip and still use force pulse

So you think there is no good magica DK with destro? Funny

lol what ? I can't speak for PVP because i don't PVP. In PVE I have molten whip, engulfing flames, and burning embers on my main bar, molten buffs those spells with a spell power bonus and every build I've seen uses force pulse in place of molten whip. My molten whip does 1k more raw damage than force pulse and procs burning, dmg is increased by engulfing flames, and the range is 10 meters now. Of course destro/ destro because of the critical chance on heavy attacks so cast molten arms hold the attack a bit longer than a med weave but not a full heavy cast molten whip and right click. Consistent 5 mil dmg parces on the Serpent fight, Magicka DK is not dead in PVE. I cannot speak for PVP because I am not knowledgeable at all in the realm of PVP.

I wrote because you quoted a pvp player

Tripwyr · April 2015

Jitterbug wrote: »

Pecivilis wrote: »

nerfing Item sets like this they are negating to usefulness

they didnt nerf it tho right? they fixed it

Calling nerfs "fixes" is the ZOS classic. Potentially controversial change? Better just say it has been bugged since release and we're fixing it.

NadiusMaximus · April 2015

Tripwyr wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

Pecivilis wrote: »

nerfing Item sets like this they are negating to usefulness

they didnt nerf it tho right? they fixed it

Calling nerfs "fixes" is the ZOS classic. Potentially controversial change? Better just say it has been bugged since release and we're fixing it.

Nerfs are not only fixes, but also new content.
"Hey hey kids. ... We changed something, so now it's new. "

WillhelmBlack · April 2015

Meteor trains will win EU thornblade.

KeplerMG · April 2015

As of this day, Meteor ultimate spam is still happening and still lagging out the server.

ZOS_EveP · April 2015

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james_vestbergb16_ESO · April 2015

heystreethawk wrote: »

james_vestbergb16_ESO wrote: »

...since the only reason ppl are spamming caltrops everywhere is because of the valkyn set.

Nope.

Yes I am aware of other proccs aswell and they are all equally stupid, none quite as powerful as this procc though, hence i exaggerated...

Already seeing alot less caltrops since the patch however.