ZOS should stop bothering with AvA and focus on Structured PvP.

Anilahation · April 2015

Structured PvP sells a lot better on the market and will appeal to the console gamers a lot more who generally only played structured PvP.

the fact is RvR is a overhyped nostalgic feature that is never implemented correctly to the way " we" want it because the fact is what we felt was simply something new and you can't revive something of nostalgia.

inb4 (but ZOS promised it)

I'm not asking for it to be removed but after the imperial city is added serious PvP needs to be the focus because atm all Cyrodill is literally just AP grind fest of boredom...

usually when a game offers PvP having a single form of PvP is bad and proof of that is Destiny.

Destiny only has death match.
Destiny is bad.
having one option of PvP is bad, just like having one option for PvE is bad.

Audigy · April 2015

I would like to know the name of the MMO which you refer to as "good pvp", just so that we know where you are coming from.

Myself, I played anything from DAOC to WOW and I just don't see an MMO right now, where small scale pvp actually works out well. Most of these small scale pvp´s are a grind, nothing less. Players are thrown into a queue system and I mean all of them. Nobody knows anyone, nobody cares for anyone, nobody is based on his skill or dedication in a specific team as there are no brackets. No! Its all random and these randoms then fight premades and lose every game.

Then we have the WOW or GW2 example, where randoms are not even allowed to pvp in said game (competitive format). Also this is pretty bad, as it destroys pvp for Casuals and non elitist gamers who don't have the will or time to join these premades.

So ya, could you give an example of where small scale pvp actually works? Thank you.

Anilahation · April 2015

Thing is the majority of genres have moved toward PvP.

the only genre where that isn't true is MMO( even "farmvile" games are moving toward PvP via Clash of clans)

the majority of streamers on twitch stream PvP consistently; PvE content isn't streamed consistently unless it's new because PvP content generally last longer.

you ask me to mention an MMO that does well with structured PvP... but you literally can't list an MMO that does well with AvA ( Daoc sales are bad and that's the truth)I love a game called battleforge it's sales were bad but it's still one of my favorite games.

Warhammer online failed and no longer exist.
gw2 abandoned it's gvg to salvage the game and embraced structured PvP.

here are two charts with top revenue games, every single one offers structured PvP.

http://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/mmo-data-superdata.jpg?w=558

http://yournewsticker.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/SuperData-MMO-games-2.jpg

the reason I'm mentioning this is because the fact is ESO PvP is beautiful and it's holding itself back by forcing it's PvP to be simple AoE spamming with click attacks.

Vizier · April 2015

ESO doesn't need "structured" pvp even if it would be a welcomed addition. It needs more meaningful objectives spread out around the map. More towns and resources to hold away from the keeps that effect the overall conflict. Something that would give smaller groups something to fight over besides a choke point and pathway from one keep to the next. ATM Cyrodiil, while fun, is nothing more than a glorified tower defense game. It really needs to have more depth than that. It's just so wrong ESO went that direction with the overall AvA concept.

Audigy · April 2015

Thing is the majority of genres have moved toward PvP. the only genre where that isn't true is MMO( even "farmvile" games are moving toward PvP via Clash of clans)

Yes Browsergames are more and more moving towards PVP, but at the same time a lot of gamers get upset and leave. Settlers Online tried to establish pvp, but Bluebyte received quite a tough feedback by its community, so they now added a new pve scenario.

PVP isn't bad, I actually do a lot of player vs. player combat, no matter if its a Moba, Cardgame, Shooter or MMO. Point however is, no design team ever gets it right, especially in MMORPGs.

As I explained earlier, you either get farmed by premades or you are the premade yourself and farm others. There is no challenge or play on even ground, its always that someone has to get beaten, while the other triumphs. I remember games such as DAOC or even Vanilla WOW at Alterac Valley / Southshore where this feeling didn't exist. Even if you lost a tower, castle etc. you could come back another day. This however, doesn't exist in battlegrounds or arenas. You go there and lose, or win. There is no comeback, no restart and that's why game communities have become so toxic in small scale environments.

the majority of streamers on twitch stream PvP consistently; PvE content isn't streamed consistently unless it's new because PvP content generally last longer.

PVP offers competition and those who like competitions, will watch it. That said, PVP at MMO´s has never really made it to the top, you could even say its in a major crisis right now. There are no competitions like the WCG ones with FIFA, SC or WC3 tournaments. WOW as the "big MMO" was only featured in 2011, not more.

Lets face it, competitive gaming works ok in shooters, sports games, Mobas or strategy games, but in MMOs? Not really, as the balancing is incredible hard to do and that's why this type of "pvp" wont stand a chance on the big market. Many companies tried, but none succeeded with their small scale pvp in regards of Esports.

you ask me to mention an MMO that does well with structured PvP... but you literally can't list an MMO that does well with AvA ( Daoc sales are bad and that's the truth)I love a game called battleforge it's sales were bad but it's still one of my favorite games.

DAOC is still considered the best MMO pvp wise, yes its old and of course its not sold in such masses like WOW, yet its still alive

UO has open world pvp too, its from 1997 and also still alive.

here are two charts with top revenue games, every single one offers structured PvP.

http://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/mmo-data-superdata.jpg?w=558

http://yournewsticker.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/SuperData-MMO-games-2.jpg

I am a bit skeptical about a site that considers Hearthstone an MMO or League of Legends

The games in the list are played online, but have not all something to do with the MMORPG franchise. Some are mobas, others open world shooters etc. What the list shows and I played most of them is that micro transactions make todays games successful.

Small scale pvp however, can not really be found in them.

Hearthstone is a card game where you fight other players, world of tanks is an open world battle field with various historic missions played on huge maps, LOL and DOTA are a MOBA etc. Only WOW and Lineage are MMORPGS and yes they do have small scale Arenas. But, both are not in any Esports leagues or really famous on Twitch & Co.

In my opinion, player vs. player has seen its top with Moba´s such as LOL or DOTA, just like Strategy games before with WC3 and SC. The future however are these online shooters like World of Tanks, Zombie survival games etc.

BG´s and Arena´s in MMO´s will stay a niche product and even if ZOS would add an Arena, it wont change anything on its popularity. It just doesn't work that well in the franchise, its hard to balance or promote in competitive gaming leagues.

Valymer · April 2015

Vizier wrote: »

ESO doesn't need "structured" pvp even if it would be a welcomed addition. It needs more meaningful objectives spread out around the map. More towns and resources to hold away from the keeps that effect the overall conflict. Something that would give smaller groups something to fight over besides a choke point and pathway from one keep to the next. ATM Cyrodiil, while fun, is nothing more than a glorified tower defense game. It really needs to have more depth than that. It's just so wrong ESO went that direction with the overall AvA concept.

QFT

I just can't get excited about retaking Alessia for the 10000th time when I know that it will flip again in a few hours.

tcgoetzub17_ESO · April 2015

If ZOS stops bothering with AvA, then I will stop bothering with this game.

I play this game for AvA and AvA only. I'm not interested in arenas. Open world combat is what I'm interested in.

Valymer · April 2015

tcgoetzub17_ESO wrote: »

If ZOS stops bothering with AvA, then I will stop bothering with this game.

I play this game for AvA and AvA only. I'm not interested in arenas. Open world combat is what I'm interested in.

Must the two be mutually exclusive?

ben_ESO5 · April 2015

Valymer wrote: »

tcgoetzub17_ESO wrote: »

If ZOS stops bothering with AvA, then I will stop bothering with this game.

I play this game for AvA and AvA only. I'm not interested in arenas. Open world combat is what I'm interested in.

Must the two be mutually exclusive?

According to the OP they are...he was responding to the title of the thread. AvA was and is a major selling point for me in ESO. Structured PvP can be found anywhere, and it's all pretty much the same. The OP can keep it. I don't have a problem with more variety, but if resources are taken away from AvA just to provide another gimmicky arena like all the rest out there, we'll be worse off.

Valymer · April 2015

ben_ESO5 wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

tcgoetzub17_ESO wrote: »

If ZOS stops bothering with AvA, then I will stop bothering with this game.

I play this game for AvA and AvA only. I'm not interested in arenas. Open world combat is what I'm interested in.

Must the two be mutually exclusive?

According to the OP they are...he was responding to the title of the thread. AvA was and is a major selling point for me in ESO. Structured PvP can be found anywhere, and it's all pretty much the same. The OP can keep it. I don't have a problem with more variety, but if resources are taken away from AvA just to provide another gimmicky arena like all the rest out there, we'll be worse off.

Good points, but what resources are you referring to? PvP has not had a major content update in the history of the game.

Nivzruo_ESO · April 2015

There is a reason these AvA mmos fail...

bellanca6561n · April 2015

Outstanding analysis, Audigy! And not the first time....or the 100th.

I don't know where Eve Online sits in all of this except that it clearly appeals to a different audience than those who play terrestrial based online games.

Eve is strange in many ways. It's the darling of game developers due to its uncompromising purity. It has more misconceptions attached to it than any. You know: that brand of misconception where you could swear you can hear a steel door slamming shut when uttered.

And it's the one online game I know that inspires near hatred among many who've never played it.....as if its very existence is offensive.

I'm a huge believer in event/scenario based mixed events. Eve nearly succeeded in this with incursions. UO succeeded in this for a time, and still does to a degree, with Champion Spawns.

The idea is to have PvE objectives that players fight over. You have teams built for PvE operating under the protection of PvP teams allied to them.

It's tricky.

Kalman · April 2015

b92303008rwb17_ESO · April 2015

The very fact that the majority of genres are moving toward PvP and the majority of the genres streamed are PvP oriented is the very reason that ESO shouldn't join this blind trend. Getting streamed consistently does not make a good game.

The current status of the AvA in ESO have flaws but even these flaws are a beauty compared to those stereotyped small scale PvP. ESO will always have my support if ZOS holds their ground regarding the PvP gameplay style. No games are perfect for everyone. Just leave the small scale PvP to WoW or esports games.

rileynotzb14_ESO · April 2015

Agreed. Sadly, Zenimax doesn't give a ***. They said no to a true arena multiple times.

bellanca6561n · April 2015

Kalman wrote: »

What was that? I'm a bit deaf in that eye....

pecheckler · April 2015

DAoC archetype sucked, and so does the giant *** that is Cyrodiil. It's not even real PvP.

Players want to see smaller-scale PvP with non-stop action. Cyrodiil has too much travel and downtime and simply too many players in battles. And of course by battles I mean two mobs chasing or fleeing depending on which side has the higher population.

Anilahation · April 2015

Why do you guys think ESO booths offer arena gameplay not AvA.

it's more convenient and more fun.

it's why 1vX/2vX videos have more views then zerg bomb videos.... not only is it more appealing to watch it's just generally more fun.

I'm not saying AvA content needs to stop but after the imperial city other options of PvP would be appreciated.

Anilahation · April 2015

(delete)

technohic · April 2015

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

Why do you guys think ESO booths offer arena gameplay not AvA.

it's more convenient and more fun.

it's why 1vX/2vX videos have more views then zerg bomb videos.... not only is it more appealing to watch it's just generally more fun.

I'm not saying AvA content needs to stop but after the imperial city other options of PvP would be appreciated.

Your opinion that it is more fun is just that. An opinion. Arenas being more convenient is true and they are conveniently located for you in almost every other MMO, so knock yourself out.

Samadhi · April 2015

With the popularity of e-sports, it really surprises me that ZOS has not made any real effort to market to such a demographic.
It seems like it could stand to be quite lucrative.

technohic · April 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

With the popularity of e-sports, it really surprises me that ZOS has not made any real effort to market to such a demographic.
It seems like it could stand to be quite lucrative.

Is there a lot of MMOs that are big in eSports? Or just MOBAs.

Darklord_Tiberius · April 2015

Another one of THESE threads.

The game is based around AvA and for them to stop focusing on it would mean the downfall of this game. Like I have already stated before and I will state again; if anything ZOS should work on structured PvP along side AvA.

If I wanted to play a game with just purely Structured I would go back to swtor. I find it hard to really care about any of you that complain about Cyrodiil. I have been playing it since Beta, been leading one of the strongest NA PvP Pact groups and find a decent mix of large group play and small group play.

Its a matter of perspective and when you only focus on the negative aspects of Cyrodiil; that's all you will ever enjoy.

pecheckler · April 2015

People need to stop thinking that structured PvP means arena. It does not. It does not have to be 5v5 or anything even close. A structured PvP archetype could be implemented with 40 or even 100 players. But it has to be structured. A definitive start and end to a match, and one which can be started and finished in a single game-play session.

xDonMega · April 2015

Yeah, since "structured" pvp has worked out so well for every other mmo...

xDonMega · April 2015

If you need someone to "structure" your pvp then guess what? You are doing it wrong..

Here's a structure for you.. there is this giant zone with castles and scrolls... go run around inside it.

kevlarto_ESO · April 2015

Structured pvp in every game I have played is boring and nothing but a bunch of pre made teams, worse than what we have in ESO, but that's just my opinion, I like AVA to bad it is having such issues, with the megaserver, or the engine where ever their weak link may be.

b92303008rwb17_ESO · April 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

With the popularity of e-sports, it really surprises me that ZOS has not made any real effort to market to such a demographic.
It seems like it could stand to be quite lucrative.

WoW is probably the only MMORPG that has its stand in e-sports and even WoW looks pale compared to other real e-sports games. E-sports is not that easy and I don't think the gameplay style of ESO by nature fits e-sports.

Baconlad · April 2015

How about we wait until imperial city I released before raging. I agree pvp needs help but...i used to play planetside 2. I AvAvA in that was incredible. I think the thing that irks me about this game is that the are took many identical structures with all identical means to take them. The battles are far too short, and when you die the game punishes you far too much by making you go back to other posts to respawn.

They should make it so that resource points are spawn points for whoever owns them, they need to boost the wall strength, make it so that defenders can spawn into the fort from anywhere in cyrodil, and attackers must ride to the site, but once there, can spawn from the resource point. Lastly, what's with the time limits before resets? There should be no reset, but nightly "call to arms" or maybe only on Fridays or Saturdays, where there are certain tasks for each alliance to complete. They could even break up cyrodill into three sections, rotating defenders and attackers to decide the whole of cyrodil winner

Zhoyzu · April 2015

Your closing statement reads "ESO is bad" by the logic you used.

pecheckler · April 2015

I'd quit bitching and stomach Cyrodiil if after dying I could immediately respawn and be back in the fight in less than 30 seconds. If that requirement isn't met, then it's not fun. In WoW, Rift, Planetside, Guild Wars, neverwinter, the old republic, wildstar, and many other games which compete with ESO, I can do this.

As someone who wants this non-stop action, I can't even begin to describe how pissed I was when I read forward camps were being removed. That was the wrong direction entirely.