Serious Class Balance Issue -- Unresolved Since Beta, Exacerbated by 1.6

hackforjub17_ESO · March 2015

Hello all,

This is my first discussion on the official forums, and it's on an issue that I feel quite strongly about. This post may read as a QQ, but it is a genuine discussion question that I would like a real answer to -- either from the community or the developers.

I have been playing a Nightblade since launch. It has been a bumpy road; that's for sure. But one constant has been the inconsistency of Shadow Cloak and it's morphs. It has been broken by just about everything from DoTs, to AoEs, to spells being cast, to line-of-sight with wolves, to, well, everything. That's fine. We've learned how to deal.

But now with the introduction of 1.6, there has been a glaring, and incredibly unfair balance issue. Templars have an immediate and reliable self-heal. As do DKs. Sure, both can have their healing effects reduced by certain debuffs, but those classes can rest assured that when they spam that button, something helpful will happen. Sorcs have the incredibly powerful Bolt Escape, allowing them to immediately engage an opponent offensively, run like hell defensively, and even detect every stealth player in front of them. Nightblades have Shadow Cloak -- that is still broken.

That would be fine, again, we have learned to spam it and use it in conjunction with line-of-sight.

Here's the issue: 1.6 gives detection potions 40 seconds. 10 seconds is reasonable; if we're smart and quick, we still have a hope of getting away. Now, no matter how quick we are, no matter where we hide, we will be found. It's a virtual guarantee. A one item counter to our only hope at a survival spell. No other class's survival spell has such a counter. It's worth mentioning that "our" only survival option - invisibility - is accessible by any alchemist as well.

What are our other options as a stamina build? Stamina-based Sorcs can still bolt escape reliably and at will, as Temps and DKs can heal. Nightblades rely on the condition of killing a target to get their heals -- that, or wait for a slow heal-over-time, or an incredibly underwhelming (700-1000ish, depending on number of enemies nearby) AoE heal.

I would really like to know how ZOS can justify giving 3 classes a reliable survivability spell, but giving the 4th a spell that is available to everyone else as a potion, but that is so frequently unreliable, and so easily countered when working successfully. Can anyone help me understand?

Thanks.

Cody · March 2015

I agree on the potion thing.

I strongly believe that cloak should not be affected by detection potions. cloak only lasts 2.5 seconds, and is broken by quite a few abilities, not to mention any alchemist can just make a potion and have access to the ability. Make the NB cloak a truely unique cloak and grant it immunity to detection potions.

if it was not for dark cloak, cloak itself would have very little justification for its existence.

shakti82eb17_ESO · March 2015

+1 NB are WEAKEST

Lava_Croft · March 2015

Oooooh! So that's why I look weird when casting the Nightblade's personal purge skill! It's meant to provide invisibility!

Jules · March 2015

shakti82eb17_ESO wrote: »

+1 NB are WEAKEST

Not even close. Stam NB's are insanely powerful. Probably strongest dps class right now.

olsborg · March 2015

Jules wrote: »

shakti82eb17_ESO wrote: »

+1 NB are WEAKEST

Not even close. Stam NB's are insanely powerful. Probably strongest dps class right now.

Stam Nbs are strong, yes, but they still dont have a class heal or a reliable flee option. Yes they have rally, but that pretty much removes the "play as you want" theory that ZOS wants us to think we have. And then you have Vigor, but thats blocked behind an unreal wall of grind called the alliance rank.

Jules · March 2015

olsborg wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

shakti82eb17_ESO wrote: »

+1 NB are WEAKEST

Not even close. Stam NB's are insanely powerful. Probably strongest dps class right now.

Stam Nbs are strong, yes, but they still dont have a class heal or a reliable flee option. Yes they have rally, but that pretty much removes the "play as you want" theory that ZOS wants us to think we have. And then you have Vigor, but thats blocked behind an unreal wall of grind called the alliance rank.

Agreed. Your shadow cloak should be fixed and you guys deserve a flee/survive ability that works. But from what I see NBs pull insane bow deeps and are able to 1-2 shot people with bow with snipes from stealth. Perhaps speccing into that build is smart so as to keep you out of melee range while the shadow cloak ability is fixed.

Jules · March 2015

I think all classes should have self heal and flee option realistically. Sure it's nice to endure like dks and templars can, but over time resources deplete. Stealth and fleeing is invaluable/preferred in some situations.

Panda244 · March 2015

Solution.

Cloak (And Morphs)

Drop. All. Combat.
Stealth. The. Caster.
Negate. All. Forms. Of. Stealth. Detection.

If the development team seriously cannot get that down, they need to get a new development team, while I like the balance and other tad bits that have come, this issue, this small, small, ridiculously stupid issue. Is almost a L2-Code issue on the development end. I dunno man... I dunno, they outta just replace the entire fracking skill and give NBs a self heal.

(Coming from a guy who stopped playing his Nightblade and made a DK because they're squishy as *** and only good for ganking, Sap Tanks are even hard to perfect in 1.6 because of the stupid decision to make block cost a metric *** ton and lowering the time to kill somebody to however fast you can cast wrecking blow.)

shakti82eb17_ESO · March 2015

Yeah, dps is ok, but you have only three seconds to do your full burst dps. If you dont, you are dead. Cause after goes all kind of bubbles and selfheal and your dps is about nothing

Grim13 · March 2015

Panda244 wrote: »

Solution.

Cloak (And Morphs)
Drop. All. Combat.

Stealth. The. Caster.

Negate. All. Forms. Of. Stealth. Detection.

Exactly.

Lettigall · March 2015

You can't compere self heal with escape skills, you cannot out heal in combat against better player or multiple enemies if you aren't pro. Escape skills gives you a chance to get away from "I loose" situations but it shouldn't be risk free. I agree that BOL as escape skill is far more superior as cloak not to mention DK and templar self heals.

Want to survive? Don't be a glass cannon! If you aren't ganker you don;t need to max weapon dmg and crit rate. Sacrifice some damage for survivability! If you fail at ganking cloak shouldn't be 100% way out of trouble. If your enemy used detect potion that's mean he knows what he's doing and he won't be able to use heal potion for 45s.

Mages for antiganking have magelight stamina builds have detection potions. I think that shadow cloak is damn impressive skill, it forces other players to make/buy potions just to counter you!

Erock25 · March 2015

hackforjub17_ESO wrote: »

What are our other options as a stamina build? Stamina-based Sorcs can still bolt escape reliably and at will.

You clearly haven't played a stam based Sorc. I can use Bolt Escape only twice in a stamina build before I'm out of magicka. Bolt Escape is not an escape for a stamina Sorc and only a means to move around the battlefield every once in a while.

As for Cloak, I do not have a NB I pvp with so I can't comment from first hand experience. I can say that if I don't have detect pots, a good NB can basically disappear at will from me. Detect pots do negate this advantage which I am forced to use to combat Cloak. I can get behind detect pots not working on cloak.

Snit · March 2015

hackforjub17_ESO wrote: »

Stamina-based Sorcs can still bolt escape reliably and at will

I don't play a NB, so I'm cautious when posting about their class skills. You might consider the same. The quoted text is not just incorrect, but betrays a basic misunderstanding of how Bolt Escape works (it has a cost increase mechanism. and it received a cost increase in 1.6).

A statement like that makes me wonder if you're accurate about your other points, too.

Cagro · March 2015

I will be happy if Shadow Cloak removes all conditions not just damage over time. That is all I ask.

Beldorr · March 2015

Dropping combat from cloak would be to strong. Out of combat resource regen plus being able to go back into sneak or horse up would be imbalanced. All other classes are stuck in combat and unable to sneak with reduced resource regeneration. Allowing sneak attacks to be chained would be a concern.

I too would like to see cloak not break from detect pots. Sometimes its hard to tell if that is really happening. As magicka NB I haven't been shut down by detect pots as I used to be, feels more like lag causes it issues rather than cloak. Its usually a dot or pierce mark rather than detection potion.

Forcing other players into using caltrops/aoe/flare would keep the counter play still alive.

Mumnoch · March 2015

I'll trade you my Sorc for your Nb any day, any time, I'll even gear out my toon and you can give me your's with nothing.

When Spec'd for DPS NB's do amazing DPS.
When Spec'd for Heals NB's do a great job at healing.
When Spec'd for Tanking NB's do a amazing job at tanking.

Not disagreeing that it'd be nice if my stealth was made to work 100% of the time on my NB, however this company has buffed this class to be truly competitive in all rolls. That's more than what can be said about the Sorc class which isn't competitive in any rolls.

hackforjub17_ESO · March 2015

I don't play a NB, so I'm cautious when posting about their class skills. You might consider the same. The quoted text is not just incorrect, but betrays a basic misunderstanding of how Bolt Escape works (it has a cost increase mechanism. and it received a cost increase in 1.6).

I think that you are misunderstanding my point, which is not that Bolt Escape is a spammable, guaranteed escape. My point is that when you push that button, you know exactly what is going to happen. You can rely on it to do what it's supposed to do.

I cannot say the same about Shadow Cloak and its morphs, all of which can be immediately broken by a detection pot that lasts 40 seconds, a channeled or distance-closing ability that was being cast on me before I used the spell, one of my dots still ticking, or a number of other spells (including all forms of AoE). If any of these things are happening (which most are, if you're engaged with more than one person), Shadow Cloak is essentially nothing but a way to give yourself armor buffs for 4 seconds. If I wanted a buff, I would use Immovable and get my knock-back immunity.

But I don't want armor buffs or knock-back immunity -- I want the chance to escape. The same chance that a Sorc has with Bolt Escape. I want to click an ability and know exactly what will happen when I click that button. With Shadow Cloak - unlike literally any other ability in the game - I don't have that, and I don't think that's by design.

Please fix it, or at least make it true invisibility that isn't broken by detection.