Sakiri wrote: »

I take offence at Molag Bal being called god of schemes. Boethiah is Prince of Plots. They wussified Fire Stone's epithets, and even had Meridia call him the wrong name!

/lore ragenerd off

Pretty sure he's been God of Schemes for a long time and that name is not new to this game. Look up the book "Varieties of Faith in the Empire". It has been in the series since Morrowind and it has God of Schemes as one of Molag Bal's titles. Deadric Princes often have overlap in titles and spheres of influence (often a reason why the fight with each other). If you are going to lore rage at least know the lore first

AngryNord wrote: »

Spriggen wrote: »

Well Thurn explains that the Amulet of Kings Will grand you power to go toe to toe and that power needed sacrifice. He didn't know you would become a demigod or an acarat of akatosh.

Huh?? They make the player able to wear the Amulet of Kings??? Which can _only_ be worn by one that is dragonborn, which there is absolutely no sign that the Soulless One is???

No, you do not wear the amulet of kings.

BugCollector wrote: »

And it just CAN NOT BE DONE! A Daedric Prince in his own realm is unbeatable, infused with the power of divines or not! He can change his realm how he wants it to be. In his own realm, nothing is impossible. He could crush the soulless one just with the power of his mind. I'm just leaving this out of my lore. I'll pretend it didn't happen.

Seriously. He's the God of Schemes. All of this works to his purposes, not yours, in the end.

Things some people forget

1. Deadric Princes are more akin to powerful demigods than true gods. While Akatosh is one of the full on Original Gods (plus being the aspect of time would be a big help).

2. Sheograth seemed to hint that rebuilding his realm each time Jygg destroyed it actually took enough effort that it was annoying him, hinting they can't just instantly will something to happen in their realm.

3. Molag Bal had already weakened himself during the fight with Meridia and the collapse of the vortex.

4. Destroying the physical form of a deadra while a set back that costs them power (losing all the souls he stole in this case) doesn't actually mean as much to them therefore they can afford to be a bit reckless in the use of their manifestation.

As for his end blustering with Meridia, I'd say it more falls into the realm of arrogant bravado since, Molag Bal knows he didn't really lose that much that he had before starting the Planne Meld.

eNumbra wrote: »

Anvos wrote: »

1. Deadric Princes are more akin to powerful demigods than true gods. While Akatosh is one of the full on Original Gods (plus being the aspect of time would be a big help).

This.

The Aedra are akin to actual gods and are considerably more powerful than the Daedra; both of whom pale in power and scope to Anuiel and Sithis.

Daedra are just really overblown Dremora when it comes right down to it.

Um, don't know how to break this to you, but the Daedra are stronger than the Aedra.

They both started out with similar levels of strength.

But the Aedra invested their strength into creating the universe, which weakened them. You want proof, Trinimac was one of the strongest Aedra, Boethiah not only thrashed him, but also ate him, which is how Malacath/Mauloch was born (technically he isn't an Daedra BTW).

eNumbra wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

But the Aedra invested their strength into creating the universe, which weakened them. You want proof, Trinimac was one of the strongest Aedra, Boethiah not only thrashed him, but also ate him, which is how Malacath/Mauloch was born (technically he isn't an Daedra BTW).

Perhaps I'm wrong but it would seem that their weakening was temporary as on at least two occassions: the ending of ESO's main storyline and the ending of Oblivion's storyline, Akatosh's power was used to defeat the Daedric lords Molag Bal and Mehrunes Dagon.

At the very least Akatosh is still on par with the Daedra.

That is true, but that is because Akatosh is the strongest of the Aedra. Even in weakened state he's still strong as hell.

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

I can only assume this indeed is what he intended all along as part of an overarching scheme mortals cannot even hope to glimpse.

Eh maybe, but something like this always comes off as rather lazy, Mary Sueish writing; I would hope, given the length of time of The Elder Scrolls' existence, the number of lore writers it's passed through, that the Daedra stopped being cheaply written characters.

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Rayadrel wrote: »

I'm sorry, was Jyggalag unbeatable in his own realm? No? Then why would Molag Bal be?

You are missing something here.
The realm was owned by BOTH Jyggalag and Sheogorath, and since the player became Sheogorath, he was able to defeat Jyggalag.

Well the way i see it from an AD&D perspective, Molag Bal's portfolio says one of his spheres is the God of Schemes. Meridia abided by the rules of engagement so to speak by setting up a chance for some outside entity to openly revolt against Molag Bal, a scheme if you will. That was her getting her foot in the door.

Then as one of Molag Bal's victims continually opposed him and continually won against his will, it finally lead to open warfare between the Master and that insurgent victim. Then Meridia could throw her weight into the ring through the main character, having not once directly opposed Molag Bal in his own realm.

It is a bit convoluted, i'll give you that, but it makes perfect sense to me looking at it through the AD&D filter. I'd suggest reading the Forgotten Realms series The Avatar Trilogy and the follow-up Prince of Lies if you get the chance. Great read and goes into depth concerning the whole portfolio concept in AD&D.

The problem with your post is that it suggests that ESO follows AD&D rules when it doesn't. It's like quoting the Quran for guidance on Christian doctrine.

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

as for Molag Bal in ESO...I can only assume this indeed is what he intended all along as part of an overarching scheme mortals cannot even hope to glimpse.

Yes, Meridia pretty much says that, we can only guess how it's to his advantage though.

I doubt his utter defeat with this scheme was to his advantage so much as simply not a setback since he's no more than back to square one. He lost tens of thousands of souls during the battle, the planar meld/vortex is ended, dozens of his nirn-based minions are dead/being tortured by his Coldharbour minions, Meridias city is still in Coldharbour; he has other plans no doubt, but I doubt this defeat worked in his favor.

Merida's speech(and correct me if I missed something because I don't remember much of it) focused more on the fact that most of the other daedra all have their own plans for Nirn. Only a couple of them are true conquerors like Molag or Mehrunes but they all enjoy the influence they wield over mortals.

eNumbra wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

as for Molag Bal in ESO...I can only assume this indeed is what he intended all along as part of an overarching scheme mortals cannot even hope to glimpse.

Yes, Meridia pretty much says that, we can only guess how it's to his advantage though.

I doubt his utter defeat with this scheme was to his advantage so much as simply not a setback since he's no more than back to square one. He lost tens of thousands of souls during the battle, the planar meld/vortex is ended, dozens of his nirn-based minions are dead/being tortured by his Coldharbour minions, Meridias city is still in Coldharbour; he has other plans no doubt, but I doubt this defeat worked in his favor.

Merida's speech(and correct me if I missed something because I don't remember much of it) focused more on the fact that most of the other daedra all have their own plans for Nirn. Only a couple of them are true conquerors like Molag or Mehrunes but they all enjoy the influence they wield over mortals.

Well Meridia's speech is a weird one, you can read all sorts into it, yes she did say the other Daedra were now interested in you (and Nirn too), but she also said that this outcome was in many ways to Molag Bals advantage.

.

gcalex5 wrote: »

KenjiJU wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

You didn't defeat Molag Bal at all.You din not even set him back . That whole fight was a joke, he made it appear that you won for some reason incomprehensible to dumb mortals. It's like letting your kid brother beat you at some stupid video game just for fun.

This.

Maybe that soul we got back isn't as clean as we'd like it to be. Must not apply soulstone directly to the forehead.

You're onto something there, I knew there was more but didn't even consider that! I mean how else that soul still sticking around with us after we are iced over and over again!

That's because the player isn't technically a mortal anymore, but a Daedra.
Read this book http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Chaotic_Creatia:_The_Azure_Plasm

Your original body is rotting somewhere after it was sacrificed.

Honestly, I would have had Molag Bal fight a raid .

The whole shenanigans were just blagh and felt anti-climatic imho

you seem to defeat an avatar of his, one that he infused with his newly gained strength. so by destroying that manifestation you weaken him, bringing him somewhat in balance with the power of the other daedric lords.

My two cents...

Debates bout inconsistency of the story, specially when it comes to deities and religion, in fanatsy games happens a lot. The first reaction is to blame the writers for doing a bad job. In essence this is correct, but often they are blamed for the wrong reasons.
The first question you have to ask is if it is inconsistent. No it isn't. I'll go into detail bout the lore part of it, but in general, the story is well written and I fully am convinced they knew what they where doing. The reason people are unhappy with it is cause they experienced a lack of immersion. This can have many reasons. For example, if you got a new partner who is constantly telling you that the game is stupid, then even if you disagree, subconscious this can stick too you and affect your immersion. The same goes with a general dislike of the game or simular causes that got nothing to do with the actual story.

However. The task of the writer is to create a story where we immerse in, so even if outside sources made it fail, they still failed in reaching their main goal. It is however a difference in being responsable and actually being able to do something bout it. Immersion is in the end a very personal thing.

This in general, now in lore.

My understanding of the lore is that once there was only Aurbis (chaos). It is filled with proto-matter, but it didn't mean anything (the so called chaos). Then two entity's formed called Anu (Everything) and Padomay (change). Some say that they came to Aurbis, but personally I believe they where created inside it cause out of chaos, something always is created. They are not considered conscious beings, but more like laws of physics. These two turned some of the chaos into conscious beings (the devines). Some of these devines created Mundus, which is a plain of existence with the planets and moons and the one we know as Tamriel. Those devines are known as Aedra. Other devines copied this process and created their own planes of existence. Those who did are now known as Daedric princess.
An important note here is that Aedra and Daedra are considered equal. So a summoned Daedra like a Winged twilight is equal to e.g. Akatosh or Molag Bal. This is nonsens off course, so this means that the enitre statement that Daedric princes are more powerfull then Aedra is wrong as well. The fact that they are considered equal comes from the fact that they once where all equal (a deity). So why are Aedra and Daedric princes more powerfull then other Daedra like the winged twilight?? The reason is that they have something in common. They created a plain of existance. A reality which they rule. They are in fact that reality. So Cold Harbour is not Molag Bals realm, but it is Molag himself. Just as Mundus is not just the realm of the Aedra, but it is the Aedra themselfes.

So did cause we didn't destroy coldharbour, we didn't destroy Molag Bal. We only destroyed the mechanic that was causing control over it. If you want proof that we didn't destroy him, just travel 1000 years into the future and visit Markath. If you are lucky, someone asks you into an abanded house and Molag starts talking to you. Remains the question why we could do what we did. The reason is the same as why Molag Bal could cause chaos and distress in Tamriel. He could disrupt the influence of the Aedra just as easy. The control of a deity (or in case of Mundus a group of deities) over his realm is not ultimate and can be breached and even broken.

so far the lore. Now to say that I am wrong too.
We are talking bout the origin of the world and universe. While many things are facts (we know coldharbour and tamriel exist), the lore is given to us by the same deity's that claim to be in control as well as by people who claim to have a better understanding.

I'll use a real life example. In the bible is written how god created animals and ultimate humans in 7 days. Later on we found proof that it didn't happen in 7 days, but by a process of evolution. It also never stopped. the process is still ongoing.
Some people see this as proof that God doesn't exist. These people are most typically those that allready didn't believe in God. Others reject this new theory of evolution.Those are often the people who have always told the 7 day story to us (the religious leaders like the pope). Then there is also a group of people who say that when evidence shows that elements of the story are not correct, it doesn't mean that the story itself is incorrect. They simply change the story to co-exist with the new facts.

Now look at the core motifs of these three groups.
Atheists: they never believed in this God-nonsens so are happy there is finally proof.
Religious leaders: Their position is based on what they always told so, they are threathened by it.
Those two groups have very clear (often subconscious) motifs. the last is less clear. But it is best defined by looking why we had the 7 day story at the first place. We wanted to understand the reason why we exist. As this goal is sill important to them, they need to redifine the story. Both party's don't give the answer any longer, so they have to create the new story themselfes.

the elder scrolls world isn't real. It is a game. For the purpose of enjoyment we have to be able to immerse into this fantasyworld. In this fanatsy world, there are things different. The story of creation is told by deities that are (inside the fanatasy) a fact. Molag Bal is real. So these deities told us that in their own realm they are all powerfull and now it turns out they are not. What could have been their motif to lie to us??

It is a game. to experience it to the fullest, it is important to immerse into it. That also means we play along, but this also means that when the storyline has a sudden twist, we have difficulties to accept this. The question is if the twist was needed. As the all-powerfullness"" of the deities was never set strong in stone in the lore in the first place and cause the story overall is pretty good, it is good enough for me.

Did you have fun playing the story and if you didn't is that cause of the story that was bad or cause of other reasons? That is the main question in my opinion, not wether or not it was consistent.

(sorry for the long wall of text. English is not my main language and wanted to put it all into the right context).