PTS Bug Report 1.6.3: Nirnhoned didn't get a 50% increase over Reinforced

DeLindsay · February 2015

I am filing this bug report here from the findings in THIS thread and as a companion to the in game Bug report #150218-000293. Per the 1.6.3 Patch notes

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Traits
Increased the value of the Nirnhoned Trait so it is 50% stronger than the Reinforced Trait for armor.

Now onto the testing to show that Nirnhoned didn't get any increase.

Live values

Nirnhoned - White: 2.5%
Nirnhoned - Gold: 4.5%
Reinforced - White: 12%
Reinforced - Gold: 16%
VR14 White Chest Reinforced: 325 Armor
VR14 Gold Chest Reinforced: 385 Armor
- VR14 Gold Chest Infused: 332 Armor (for comp)

1.6.3 PTS values

Nirnhoned - White: 2.5%
Nirnhoned - Gold: 4.5%
Reinforced - White: 12%
Reinforced - Gold: 16%
VR14 White Chest Reinforced: 2638 Armor
VR14 Gold Chest Reinforced: 3141 Armor
- VR14 Gold Chest Infused PTS 1.6.2: 2708 Armor (for comp)

On PTS the hard cap for Armor and Spell Resistance is 32,500. That means each 1% is worth 650 points. The comp values are from MY personal Tank gear from Live right now to 1.6.2 PTS and reflect a 16% increase for Reinforced. So ZoS didn't nerf Armor value to make it seem like Nirnhoned got increased, they just didn't do anything at all yet said they did in the patch notes.

3141 Armor (Legendary Value) = 4.8%*
50% stronger Nirnhoned = 7.2% (Legendary value)

*Why does listing the full value of a Legendary Reinforced item matter instead of just the Reinforced value? Because in 1.6 you gain 1 point of Resistance for every 1 point of Armor. That means 3141 Armor on that Chest piece = 3141 Resistance. 4.5% Nirnhoned = 2925 Resistance, a net loss over the Reinforced Trait.

angelyn · February 2015

Ok..so I've done some number crunching.The immediately obvious thing is that the nirnhoned % on tooltip hasn't increased from live to PTS in your post.To me it should be 24% as 16%+ half of 16% is 24%

So I tried to see if maybe they changed the values but forgot to change the tooltip. I tried it two different ways(one posted below) and still came up with Nirnhoned providing less than it should in your example:
CuHDgnG.jpg?1

Looks like they possibly forgot to do both the tooltip and the values?Unless, the values have increased but the character screen hasn't updated?

Although, it all depends on what that 50% is referring to and if my brain is thinking this over correctly.

DeLindsay · February 2015

@angelyn all that even makes my brain hurt but no Nirnhoned shouldn't be a value of 24% because you can't take the value of 16% Reinforced directly since it's only 16% higher than the normal value of Armor, which a Nirnhoned item in that slot would also receive as Spell Resistance, 2708 Armor = 2708 Resistance.

I too thought that maybe they just didn't change the tool tip and the 4.5% is actually ~7% or whatever value (since it's different based on the item, Chest gives the most Armor, Belt gives the least but Nirnhoned has always been a static value). Since I don't have my actual VR14 with my gear from Live on 1.6.3 I wasn't able to test the values based on an assumption that the Tool tip didn't get changed. However, since the Reinforced Armor value of an actual VR14 Legendary Chest didn't change from 1.6.2 > 1.6.3 then it lead me to only 2 conclusions, either the Tool tip wasn't changed or the Nirnhoned value did not actually get increased by 50%.

The easiest way for them to do that is just increase the base from 2.5% to 4.5% which would give 6.5% at Legendary since the Improvement increment is 0.5%/Tier. That would be roughly 50% stronger than all 8 Body pcs as an average. With Nirnhoned at 6.5% Chest and Shield it would be less than 50% stronger, Helm and Legs would be roughly 50% stronger and all 4 off pcs would be more than 50% stronger than Reinforced but ALL 8 body pcs would still only give 6.5% each (4225 Resistance) if using Nirnhoned and that way no shenanigans could happen with Players stacking Nirnhoned. Here is an image of a VR14 Heavy Nirnhoned Chest from 1.6.3, credit goes to @helediron.
[img][/img]

I don't have any pictures from 1.6.2 but during my theorycrafting for my Tank build post 1.6 I happened to write down my own Armor values, that's how I know what my personal VR14 Heavy Infused Chest was for Armor value, 2708. That 2708 translates into the 3141 Armor value that @helediron found when he personally upgraded a VR14 Heavy Reinforced Chest to Legendary on 1.6.3, meaning ZoS didn't change the values of Armor, at least per the tool tip.

This kind of thing is the single problem with ZoS and our PTS. We still don't have proper methods to thoroughly test things. The only way to test whether or not it's a Tool tip issue is to head into Cyro with your VR14 and a buddy to duel you for however long it takes to determine the damage values. That's a horrible way to test things out. We should be able to do the same with another player via a proper Duel mechanic outside of Cyro. And we need Target dummies to test out builds, rotations, etc. If we had such tools these kind of problems wouldn't be an issue.

One more thing, based on your Step #3. Using the 3141 Chest value Nirnhoned would be 4711.5 Resistance, or 7.25%. It looks like you're taking only the Reinforced value but 1 Armor = 1 Resistance in 1.6 so that 3141 Chest = 3141 Resistance also. For ZoS to have (as they said in the patch notes) "Increased the value of the Nirnhoned Trait so it's 50% stronger than the Reinforced Trait" then Nirnhoned in the same slot has to be 50% higher Resistance than what the Reinforced Armor value is. This is something we need an answer from ZoS about, and this thread IS in the bug report section of the PTS, I'm surprised no ZoS employee has even stopped by to clarify anything. I've also received no response to my in game (on PTS) bug report.

angelyn · February 2015

Hah! I did think "hmm 24% is quite high!".. I think I've realised what I've done there-Ive interpreted what that 50% is referring to differently to how you have.
I assumed that when they said 50%, they meant 50% increase of whatever that 16% of original amount turned out to be, not a 50% increase on 116% of original value (ie base value plus 16%). Which would get you to 47115 (ie 3141 + 50%=4711.5) I suppose its really then a matter of how "50% stronger than reinforced" is interpreted. I went backwards from what we start with and you've worked forwards from what we end up with.

Ive also just thought that nirnhoned increases based on % of your entire spell resist, where as reinforced increases as a % of the spell resist for that specific piece of armour..?So does that mean the nirnhoned effect will be cumulative ?As in be a different amount after each piece of armour is added? That would mean that unless they change it to be same as reinforced(ie per piece not %of total spell resist), it could be using an increasing spell resist base after each piece of armour was added. *Brain explodes*

DeLindsay wrote: »

The easiest way for them to do that is just increase the base from 2.5% to 4.5% which would give 6.5% at Legendary since the Improvement increment is 0.5%/Tier. That would be roughly 50% stronger than all 8 Body pcs as an average.

I completely agree with this. Then we wouldn't have to cobble together 3 brains to test one nirnhoned

It's just like ZOS asking if provisioning ingredients were all accounted for, but failed to provide a conversion list, meaning players had to create their own.

I will try and have a look tomorrow once I have had 3 coffees.(maybe 6!) and go through that second post fully

I'm hoping they see that 50% same as you do so we can get more spell resist.

DeLindsay · February 2015

PTS Patch notes 1.6.4:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Exploration & Itemization
Itemization
Actually increased the value of the Nirnhoned Trait so it is 50% stronger than the Reinforced trait for armor, as mentioned previously.

If we can get an EU Player to get online once PTS is back up (it's patching now) to check on this that would be great. Otherwise I will check it myself this week if 1.6 goes Live or if it goes back to NA on Tuesday.

EDIT: I checked PTS to at least see the Tooltip and it has indeed been increased. It shows me 18% for the base value (White Armor item) for Nirnhoned. At least I can say now ZoS does read these bug reports.

Mystikkal · March 2015

@DeLindsay @angelyn Hi, thanks for the information. Just wondering how Nirnhoned works now relative to reinforced. Do you recommend that you put Nirnhoned on your hands and belt? How much more spell resist is it going to give than reinforced?

F7sus4 · March 2015

Just a small post-scriptum: Reinforced should have fixed and scalable numbers different for each type of armor (light, medium, heavy). While 20%+ armor bonus for heavy armor is huge, on light armor it doesn't change anything at all - just a waste of trait slot.

DeLindsay · March 2015

F7sus4 wrote: »

Just a small post-scriptum: Reinforced should have fixed and scalable numbers different for each type of armor (light, medium, heavy). While 20%+ armor bonus for heavy armor is huge, on light armor it doesn't change anything at all - just a waste of trait slot.

Fact, and what's even worse is Reinforced on even a Heavy Glove for example is pretty much useless.

Mystikkal wrote: »

@DeLindsay @angelyn Hi, thanks for the information. Just wondering how Nirnhoned works now relative to reinforced. Do you recommend that you put Nirnhoned on your hands and belt? How much more spell resist is it going to give than reinforced?

1.6 Nirnhoned works as it should (after the increase) and yes I use it on 1-2 off-pcs for all Roles that I can Craft the Armor for, mostly because I'm a Vampire and the Fire Glyph is all but useless now so every little bit helps.