[1.6] Full immunity to bleeding effects

trimsic_ESO · March 2015

I wrote a bug report a few weeks ago about an issue I found on the PTS, and posted the report also in this forum.

The problem concerns the damage shield and its ability to purge any bleeding effects and its ability to grant a full immunity to bleeding effects as long as a damage shield is up and running. Some players replied to me that this was a game mechanic implemented quite a long time ago, but I could not find any official statement about it.

Of course, I'm pretty sure that there were good reasons at that time to implement it this way. But with all the changes made to the update 6, I feel like this game mechanic is now questionable, especially in Cyrodiil.

Many players have changed their game play in PvP. While I was on the PTS, I could see that most people now make sure that they always have a damage shield up and running, and as soon as it is no longer active they cast another one. This new play style may be explained by different reasons: the changes made to the armor rating, the changes made to impenetrable, and the fact that casting a damage shield offers a great protection while being extremely affordable.

If people always have a damage shield to protect themselves from incoming damage, their damage shield also grants them a full immunity to any bleeding effects. The consequence on the combat system is quite important, because some active and passive abilities won't be able to apply their bleeding effects, for instance:
- Cleave (2H) and all its morphs
- Twin slashes (DW) and all its morphs; blood craze does not heal as the bleeding effect is purged
- Twin blade and blunt: wearing 1H axes will not apply the bleeding effect
- Twin sisters set (pvp set)

This has also an impact on stamina builds: the damage caused by bleeding effects scales off stamina, and therefore this game mechanic reduces the efficiency of some stamina builds. The build diversity is a bit narrowed since DOT based stamina builds are no more viable in this context.

When I read the 1.6 release notes, I can see this:
- The bleed from dual wielding axes can now critically hit.
- Melee abilities that apply a bleed will now all properly ignore your target’s armor.

In a PvE context, this looks great. But in a PvP environment, this is a bit useless because of the damage shields.

I'd love to read some official statement about this issue: is this just a bug, or something intentional? And if this is intentional, is there any chance that it gets some attention at some point in the future, so as to make sure that the impacts on bleed skills and PvP sets are at the right level in 1.6, especially for the stamina players roaming in Cyrodiil?

Gilvoth · March 2015

totaly awesome post as i have noticed the same exact p[roblem, no one bleeds from my attacks and i am a stamina DW build so for me this is a true nightmare in pvp.

exiledtyrant · March 2015

Bleeds are made pretty useless in PVE as well there's been tons of undead, constructs, and spirits that are immune to bleeding while leveling in Daggerfall. Entire story arcs can be filled with bleed immunity. End game dungeons can have completely bleed immune bosses as well and it doesn't help in Crag when there's so many atronachs and such that are also immune to bleeding. Bleeding in PvE and PvP need to be address as it is completely ruining a play style. No more immunities, no more damage shields that purge bleed and don't allow bleed ticks, No more blocking stopping bleed, and no more blocking reducing already placed bleeds ( supposed to be unmitigated damage).

Cody · March 2015

I understand the reasons for these immunities, but they are screwing over literally entire play styles and it needs to be changed.

Make bleeds be unaffected by damage shields in the following situations:

If the bleed is on before the shield is cast

or

just make bleeds go thru damage shields outright.(most people don't want this to happen, so ill settle for the "before its cast" option)

Make DWEMER CONTRUCTS vulnerable to bleeding, have their "blood" be the dwemer oil inside that keeps them going, I personally want undead vulnerable also, but that is a stepping stone many people will fight tooth and nail to defend, and I am willing to let it go to avoid all the senseless drama.

exiledtyrant · March 2015

Honesty I don't think an argument for bleed immunities or damage shields stopping bleeds has a leg to stand on. No other damage type has to worry about immunities. The unmitigated damage from bleeds do less damage over 6-9 seconds than most direct damage attacks do in 1 second, or 2 seconds at most if they are facing 50% reduction. You've got skills like wrecking blow doing 5500 damage a second vs a bleed like twin slash doing 4500 damage in 9 seconds. The trade off being twin slash is more resource efficient.

Then you have damage shields stopping DOTs when the direct counter to DOTs already exist in purge effects, heal over time, and direct healing.Bleeds aren't OP damage wise ( they fill a sustained damage niche and utility) and they don't deserve so much going against them.

If bleeds were made viable dual wield gets more single target sustained dps, Two handed gets more aoe sustained dps, dual wield would be able to use it's survivability morph, people who want to use axes could do it, and build variety would increase such as on hit sustain builds.

Lhorion · March 2015

WIth a damage shield you are not immun against bleeding. The bleeding hurts your shield until it is gone.

Your logic would say: Damage shields makes you immun against incoming damage.

Both (bleeding and normal damage) hurt the shield and you don't see it with FTC, like in 1.5.

exiledtyrant · March 2015

Lhorion wrote: »

WIth a damage shield you are not immun against bleeding. The bleeding hurts your shield until it is gone.

Your logic would say: Damage shields makes you immun against incoming damage.

Both (bleeding and normal damage) hurt the shield and you don't see it with FTC, like in 1.5.

Maybe the attacks are to fast in this video I pulled from another thread but to me it doesn't look like it is applying bleed at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ8EyCtMGiA

Especially during the heavy attack portion where ticks should have been noticeable. The debuff doesn't show and the shield doesn't drain as if it were taking bleed damage.

As incoming damage is all damage I don't see where I stated that direct damage does not effect damage shields.

Gilvoth · March 2015

is this being worked on? my entire build is based on bleeding the enemy especially in pvp.
any one working on this?

trimsic_ESO · March 2015

Lhorion wrote: »

WIth a damage shield you are not immun against bleeding. The bleeding hurts your shield until it is gone.

Your logic would say: Damage shields makes you immun against incoming damage.

Both (bleeding and normal damage) hurt the shield and you don't see it with FTC, like in 1.5.

The bleeding does not hurt the shield; it immediately stops ticking. And that's the problem.

trimsic_ESO · March 2015

exiledtyrant wrote: »

If bleeds were made viable dual wield gets more single target sustained dps, Two handed gets more aoe sustained dps, dual wield would be able to use it's survivability morph, people who want to use axes could do it, and build variety would increase such as on hit sustain builds.

Well this is the point. If the damage shield grants an immunity to bleeding effects, then everything you mentioned above just does not work and is not viable. What is the benefits or the goal of such a game mechanic?

exiledtyrant · March 2015

Still needs to be addressed. Each major story line appears to be dominated by a necromancer and that means a lot of skeletons, gargoyles, and spirits that don't bleed. Spent the day clearing Rivenspire today most things on the map again were unaffected by bleeds just like the other zones.

This is worse than being shoehorned into one morph because the other morph is bad. An entire play style is being cut off.

Kuro1n · March 2015

Actually they did 'address' it and said it's working as intended.

exiledtyrant · March 2015

Was this said on one of their live shows or something? I've been trying to find an actual quote over the past week to see exactly why they would reason this way. I have looked over a years worth of threads with the key words bleed immunity and all i could find were some mentions of adding more bleed immune enemies as well a a lot of players saying how unbalanced it is to have bleed immunity when there is no magic based equivalent.

Kuro1n · March 2015

I think it was during a live but I can't be 100% sure, it was during the PTS (like 1.6.3 or something IIRC).

exiledtyrant · March 2015

Ok I might skim over the last 3 videos to see if i can find it.

So I went over the Q/A with the devs and the ask us anything segments of eso live 10,11, and 12 with nothing to show for it. At this point I'm not going to go through more old info. honestly bleed is feeling like Dark magic all over again.