Suggestion for making the 1.6 Bow viable for endgame w/o effecting burst PvP dmg.

Alphashado · February 2015

I think by now after several weeks of testing, we have all come to the conclusion that Bow DPS on long, sustained fights is considerably less than optimal. Burst damage in PvP is still very good, ie Snipe sneak attack, but in regards to PvE endgame, there isn't any indication that the Bow is even on par with multiple ranged casting builds that have been tested. The Bow is an integral part of the game/lore and it's a shame that it will be kicked to the curb unless something changes.

Here is a suggestion on a way to increase Bow DPS on long, sustained fights w/o effecting burst damage in PvP.

"Focused Archer" - Passive skill - "All damage caused by a Bow or any of it's damaging attacks will increase in damage by 1% for each consecutive second for the first 15 seconds of combat, for a total of 15% after 15 seconds. Bonus damage resets when ending combat or switching targets."

Or some variation of the concept. Do you guys think this would be a viable solution?

pppontus · February 2015

Possibly, I'd however rather see a prolonging of the DOTs.. this will make bow play more interactive (more than snipe snipe snipe snipe poison injection snipe snipe snipe snipe). Increasing the DOT from Scorched Earth from 5 to 10 secs, and Acid Spray from 4 to 8-10 should increase sustained Bow DPS by a lot while not really affecting burst.. much of what they did very successfully to sorcs

technohic · February 2015

All they really need is to consolidate volley and arrow spray into a single AOE skill then give a Bow ability that is actually a bread and butter sustained, non-DOT spammable damage.

Really even in PvP bow is just situationally effective.

Snipe is fine for burst but IMO is very limited to sneak attacks and not ideal for keeping pressure with it being a 1 second cast and all. Sets you wide open for interrupts and lag makes it not get off half the time in long fights in PvP, pretty much only useful for a gank.

Poison arrow is fine for its DOTs with the option for an interrupt and great on low health targets with its other morphs but again, where snipe will start a fight, that would finish it but leaves nothing in the middle. Its also succeptable to all the purge and purify spam that goes around

Scatter shot and its morphs are a good kite tool, but too short range to be the range DPS.

ElliottXO · February 2015

Umm you are probably wearing medium armor. Why do you expect to be on par with light armor users? Your a armor is way higher.

And can my heavy armor sword and shield build please also deal as much damage as your bow build?

Apples and oranges.

Joy_Division · February 2015

technohic wrote: »

Snipe is fine for burst but IMO is very limited to sneak attacks and not ideal for keeping pressure with it being a 1 second cast and all. Sets you wide open for interrupts and lag makes it not get off half the time in long fights in PvP, pretty much only useful for a gank.

I am also looking forward to using a bow in end-game PVE but what you have here is wrong. The ability to throw down high damaging hits (with very stong heal debuffs) from 40 meters away is a very potent ability that has *many* uses in Cyordiil. Yes, trying to use it in a 1 v 1 situation is likely to get you killed if you opponent is aware and capable of defending themselves, but the skill is not meant to be used in such a setting.

Alcast · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

I think by now after several weeks of testing, we have all come to the conclusion that Bow DPS on long, sustained fights is considerably less than optimal. Burst damage in PvP is still very good, ie Snipe sneak attack, but in regards to PvE endgame, there isn't any indication that the Bow is even on par with multiple ranged casting builds that have been tested. The Bow is an integral part of the game/lore and it's a shame that it will be kicked to the curb unless something changes.

Here is a suggestion on a way to increase Bow DPS on long, sustained fights w/o effecting burst damage in PvP.

"Focused Archer" - Passive skill - "All damage caused by a Bow or any of it's damaging attacks will increase in damage by 1% for each consecutive second for the first 15 seconds of combat, for a total of 15% after 15 seconds. Bonus damage resets when ending combat or switching targets."

Or some variation of the concept. Do you guys think this would be a viable solution?

The main issue with snipe is that the snipe > LA weaving is broken and that is why it deals so *** less dmg. And i think it also got a 20% dmg nerf.

Alphashado · February 2015

ElliottXO wrote: »

Umm you are probably wearing medium armor. Why do you expect to be on par with light armor users? Your a armor is way higher.

And can my heavy armor sword and shield build please also deal as much damage as your bow build?

Apples and oranges.

This is just.. wrong. In so many ways. This is the first time since they were removed that I wished I still had a LOL button. You realize that there are medium armor/stamina builds with 2H and DW that are doing 40% more damage than the Bow right? Armor means next to nothing in PvE unless you are a tank. Sorry, but we already went through the phase where staff wielders wearing dresses were the only viable DPS in the game. ZoS is making serious adjustments to make stamina builds viable. They have done wonders with stamina melee builds, but the Bow is being left in the dust.

It is not apples and oranges. We have 3 rolls here. Tank/DPS/Healer. DPS does not mean Wizards and staffs. The Bow is a DPS weapon, not a tank weapon. The small amount of armor that a medium set gives compared to cloth means absolutely nothing in a dungeon. Medium armor isn't designed to take a direct hit from a Boss. A NB wearing medium armor will get one shotted just as fast as a mage wearing a robe if you are dumb enough to stand in front of a boss.

ElliottXO · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

Umm you are probably wearing medium armor. Why do you expect to be on par with light armor users? Your a armor is way higher.

And can my heavy armor sword and shield build please also deal as much damage as your bow build?

Apples and oranges.

This is just.. wrong. In so many ways. This is the first time since they were removed that I wished I still had a LOL button. You realize that there are medium armor/stamina builds with 2H and DW that are doing 40% more damage than the Bow right? Armor means next to nothing in PvE unless you are a tank. Sorry, but we already went through the phase where staff wielders wearing dresses were the only viable DPS in the game. ZoS is making serious adjustments to make stamina builds viable. They have done wonders with stamina melee builds, but the Bow is being left in the dust.

It is not apples and oranges. We have 3 rolls here. Tank/DPS/Healer. DPS does not mean Wizards and staffs. The Bow is a DPS weapon, not a tank weapon. The small amount of armor that a medium set gives compared to cloth means absolutely nothing in a dungeon. Medium armor isn't designed to take a direct hit from a Boss. A NB wearing medium armor will get one shotted just as fast as a mage wearing a robe if you are dumb enough to stand in front of a boss.

I would give that lol right back. Of course meele should do more DPS than ranged. One can only argue about the gap.

With the changes in armor light armor users will have a more considerable disadvantage.

Your argument was stale before, and now is even more stale. You can't have it all. Get over it.

Alphashado · February 2015

ElliottXO wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

Umm you are probably wearing medium armor. Why do you expect to be on par with light armor users? Your a armor is way higher.

And can my heavy armor sword and shield build please also deal as much damage as your bow build?

Apples and oranges.

This is just.. wrong. In so many ways. This is the first time since they were removed that I wished I still had a LOL button. You realize that there are medium armor/stamina builds with 2H and DW that are doing 40% more damage than the Bow right? Armor means next to nothing in PvE unless you are a tank. Sorry, but we already went through the phase where staff wielders wearing dresses were the only viable DPS in the game. ZoS is making serious adjustments to make stamina builds viable. They have done wonders with stamina melee builds, but the Bow is being left in the dust.

It is not apples and oranges. We have 3 rolls here. Tank/DPS/Healer. DPS does not mean Wizards and staffs. The Bow is a DPS weapon, not a tank weapon. The small amount of armor that a medium set gives compared to cloth means absolutely nothing in a dungeon. Medium armor isn't designed to take a direct hit from a Boss. A NB wearing medium armor will get one shotted just as fast as a mage wearing a robe if you are dumb enough to stand in front of a boss.

I would give that lol right back. Of course meele should do more DPS than ranged. One can only argue about the gap.

With the changes in armor light armor users will have a more considerable disadvantage.

Your argument was stale before, and now is even more stale. You can't have it all. Get over it.

Yeah. OK. Thank you for the constructive feedback. Sorry that your cloth build isn't God mode anymore in PvP. Everything you are saying is clearly based around PvP. The point of this thread is to figure out a way for Bow DPS to be viable at endgame PvE. Pretty sad that it's getting left in the dust because of PvP due to arguments like yours that medium armor DPS should be lower than Cloth. Nevermind of course that medium armor melee is currently the best in the game.

PvP is absolutely controlling this game. Every class decision, every skill/weapon ability decision is based on how it will effect PvP. And it's due to feedback like yours.

cschwingeb14_ESO · February 2015

You are missing the point. In PvE, being at range is also a significant advantage due to uptime on bosses and ability to avoid mechanics. It's also just plain easier.

Bow dps should be comparable to ranged magicka dps, yes. But melee dps should be higher. And assuming magicka melee is still a thing, ditto for that.

How much higher is a good question.

Alphashado · February 2015

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

You are missing the point. In PvE, being at range is also a significant advantage due to uptime on bosses and ability to avoid mechanics. It's also just plain easier.

Bow dps should be comparable to ranged magicka dps, yes. But melee dps should be higher. And assuming magicka melee is still a thing, ditto for that.

How much higher is a good question.

I have never once suggested that melee shouldn't be higher than ranged. Melee should be slightly higher. But at the end of the fight, it should be a wash. Both melee and ranged should have equal DPS at the end of the fight. And by no stretch of the imagination should casting ranged DPS be higher than the Bow. They should be the same. Right now it's not even close. The bow is significantly behind ranged casting builds and its MILES behind melee.

Novesette · February 2015

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

You are missing the point. In PvE, being at range is also a significant advantage due to uptime on bosses and ability to avoid mechanics. It's also just plain easier.

Bow dps should be comparable to ranged magicka dps, yes. But melee dps should be higher. And assuming magicka melee is still a thing, ditto for that.

How much higher is a good question.

Yeah, except that unlike other MMO's with traditional tank/aggro/heal mechanics, ranged DPS like that of the bow does not really lead to damage mitigation by being out of range or attacks. Encounters in ESO don't seem to be designed around that. If, as a bow user, I could stay 40 meters away, avoid all but the most trivial damage from adds or an occasional hit from a boss area skill and in the process use up little to no healing resources (like WoW was back in the day), then we could call it a wash that melee DPS > Bow DPS because melee players use up more group resources (heals, CC to save) so bows would be free DPS. That's not really how ESO works most of the time, which is why you don't tend to see Trial groups forming asking for bow users. It would be nice if bow users could be that low cost/low maintenance DPS, I think far fewer people would complain of doing less DPS if the range actually translated into survival and utility.