Maintenance for the week of January 12:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – January 12
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – January 12
Alchemy farmers, please don't skip nodes. This is common sense...
-
Pendrillion✭✭✭✭I feel like we have a fundamental Communism Capitalism stalemate here.
In the end both parts sucky and both parts contribute to something.
I for one learned which one of you thinks how and which one I probably find more interesting to play with. So to speak. But hell leaving worms back in the nodes is really annoying. So stop doing that...
Chances are chances. And if you want to improve on those, well... I don't know... good for you. But if various people farm a zone, you probably have at least 4 or 5 variables too many to rely on your numbers.
On the other hand, just blantantly stating you are not playing for the table is kind of self absorbed. There are countries on this planet where common sense and some sportsmanship aren't looked at as weakness to be exploited. It is shameful behaviour in my eyes. Of course no one set any rules. But well look at the world. Look what that exact behaviour has created.
Both of you have their rationale.
I keep going and I still find, that farming is rewarding in itself. Also by wandering through those beautiful landscapes ZOS created. Maybe even soft RP a bit. And sometimes cursing the fact that I picked up the 7th TA and haven't seen a single ore node in half an hour. Or sometimes finding 3 Columbine 2 Kutas and 20 Ore in a row.0 -
Epona222✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭An area where this is very evident is the pond by the Hollow City wayshrine in Coldharbour - a lot of people will do the "pond circuit" taking the hyacinth, and leaving the nirnroot and any worms in the hyacinth nodes. If there are 2 people going round the pond at opposite sides, and they both harvest everything (worms and crawdad and all), all the nodes respawn very quickly and it is beneficial to both players.
I don't really farm that much, but if I am going through an area I collect all the nodes I see, knowing that they will respawn for the next person who comes through. This way I end up with plenty for my own use, plenty to sell, and anything I end up with that is useless it only takes a second to right click on it in my inventory and destroy it.Edited by Epona222 on 21 February 2015 19:58GM - Ghost Sea Trading Co - NA PC
Epona was a Romano-Celtic goddess dating back to around 1800 to 2000 years before computer games were invented.0 -
Hechicera✭✭✭Pendrillion wrote: »I feel like we have a fundamental Communism Capitalism stalemate here.
In the end both parts sucky and both parts contribute to something.
Nah. It's a straight up case of the economic theory of the Tragedy of the Commons. I slapped a youtube link, but google works fine. It's tghe formal economic theory of "this is why we can't have nice things".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLirNeu-A8I
Some people will be selfish because for them it is optimal in this scenario. The private ownership option is even evidenced by someone in the thread saying they used multiple characters running dailies. That is their private resource and not subject to this economic dilemma. Games which instance nodes (aka GW2) use the privatization of the resource approach. If the resource remains public in economic theory, strong controls must be placed on it to avoid "overgrazing". Or in this case selfish-harvesting which in effect degrades the state of the resource for others.
A community often can self-police a nearby local shared resource, using consequences for over use not considered fair. For instance a small town shares a well, one household over uses, so they demand recompense. But if they use it at a rate that will deplete it for all, they will burn their house down and run them out, it works. That is unlikely here as the community is neither small, nor self-policing nor able to provide meaningful consequences. Nor do I think I would want it to! Though this thread is an attempt at providing community policing via social shaming. A valid first step. But any player who's personal interest is not swayed by this will continue, as there is no further meaningful consequence that can be brought to bear.
Are we overgrazed yet?
Well, I just came back, and I'm finding nodes in the newbie island of just worms. Which was a little confusing until I read this thread. And the no sub part of buy to play hasn't even hit! This isn't a problem players can fix, maybe devs will do something? Or it will remain unfixed. Live with it or go are your options.2 -
Naivefanboi✭✭✭✭Plants will only respawn once the node has been taken. If someone is farming an area and they skip stuff they do not want, when they come back, those plants will still be there. If they take everything, when they come back, there will be new, and likely better plants available. By skipping plants you do not want, you are lowering your total available spawn points for better items. Seem pretty obvious? You would think it is, but here's where farming gets ruined.
Add a second person to the equation. This person knows others are farming so they decide to only go after the good stuff. They skip all the junk and when the competition comes around, all they find is blessed thistle, dragon thorn, and wormwood. How do they compete? By also skipping the junk to get to the better nodes before they are all taken. If they did not do this, they would only be collecting the junk while someone else steals all the good stuff. Eventually, there is nothing good to take because no one is clearing the junk.
Players who skip the junk are selfishly taking the rewards from the hard working players who are trying to make a decent harvest. Many times I have seen them ruin an area by selfishly stealing the good crops without putting in the work that other players are putting in. Just picture if this went ignored and the other players continued to clear the junk. One person would be making about five times the profit at the expense of others labor. I always refuse to put up with this type of selfish behavior.
What can you do? First I will message the person and tell them that it is selfish of them to leave the junk. Most players will deny doing so, and I will give them the benefit of the doubt. Next, I will stop farming the junk myself, and show them what happens when no one does. This does have an effect on everyone since farming slows down to a near halt and there is eventually nothing to take. And when it reaches that point, I leave the area and find somewhere else to farm.
All because one guy refuses to cooperate with the community. They feel entitled to get more than everyone else instead of working together to take an even share. What they do not realize is that if everyone is working together, there are more than enough nodes for everyone, and by causing the harvest to slow down, they are actually hurting themselves just as much as everyone else. So in conclusion, please don't be that bad apple that spoils the bunch. Clear all the nodes, and remember that worms and crawlers need to be taken as well.
lol, quick ban me zos.0 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pendrillion wrote: »I feel like we have a fundamental Communism Capitalism stalemate here.
In the end both parts sucky and both parts contribute to something.
Nah. It's a straight up case of the economic theory of the Tragedy of the Commons. I slapped a youtube link, but google works fine. It's tghe formal economic theory of "this is why we can't have nice things".https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLirNeu-A8I
Some people will be selfish because for them it is optimal in this scenario. The private ownership option is even evidenced by someone in the thread saying they used multiple characters running dailies. That is their private resource and not subject to this economic dilemma. Games which instance nodes (aka GW2) use the privatization of the resource approach. If the resource remains public in economic theory, strong controls must be placed on it to avoid "overgrazing". Or in this case selfish-harvesting which in effect degrades the state of the resource for others.
A community often can self-police a nearby local shared resource, using consequences for over use not considered fair. For instance a small town shares a well, one household over uses, so they demand recompense. But if they use it at a rate that will deplete it for all, they will burn their house down and run them out, it works. That is unlikely here as the community is neither small, nor self-policing nor able to provide meaningful consequences. Nor do I think I would want it to! Though this thread is an attempt at providing community policing via social shaming. A valid first step. But any player who's personal interest is not swayed by this will continue, as there is no further meaningful consequence that can be brought to bear.
Are we overgrazed yet?
Well, I just came back, and I'm finding nodes in the newbie island of just worms. Which was a little confusing until I read this thread. And the no sub part of buy to play hasn't even hit! This isn't a problem players can fix, maybe devs will do something? Or it will remain unfixed. Live with it or go are your options.
This is the best comparison to the real world I've read with only minor differences. It's a shame that logic is not enough.0 -
Frawr✭✭✭✭✭Pendrillion wrote: »I feel like we have a fundamental Communism Capitalism stalemate here.
In the end both parts sucky and both parts contribute to something.
Nah. It's a straight up case of the economic theory of the Tragedy of the Commons. I slapped a youtube link, but google works fine. It's tghe formal economic theory of "this is why we can't have nice things".https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLirNeu-A8I
Some people will be selfish because for them it is optimal in this scenario. The private ownership option is even evidenced by someone in the thread saying they used multiple characters running dailies. That is their private resource and not subject to this economic dilemma. Games which instance nodes (aka GW2) use the privatization of the resource approach. If the resource remains public in economic theory, strong controls must be placed on it to avoid "overgrazing". Or in this case selfish-harvesting which in effect degrades the state of the resource for others.
A community often can self-police a nearby local shared resource, using consequences for over use not considered fair. For instance a small town shares a well, one household over uses, so they demand recompense. But if they use it at a rate that will deplete it for all, they will burn their house down and run them out, it works. That is unlikely here as the community is neither small, nor self-policing nor able to provide meaningful consequences. Nor do I think I would want it to! Though this thread is an attempt at providing community policing via social shaming. A valid first step. But any player who's personal interest is not swayed by this will continue, as there is no further meaningful consequence that can be brought to bear.
Are we overgrazed yet?
Well, I just came back, and I'm finding nodes in the newbie island of just worms. Which was a little confusing until I read this thread. And the no sub part of buy to play hasn't even hit! This isn't a problem players can fix, maybe devs will do something? Or it will remain unfixed. Live with it or go are your options.
Really good post. Clearly identifies the problem.
Yesterday, I disagreed with the idea of ZOS Implementing changes to counter player selfishness. Reading your post, however, I see that it is the only sensible course of action because they have not/will not give us the tools to deal with the problem ourselves (pvp the player out of the area).0 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭SteveCampsOut wrote: »QUOTE REMOVED.
What does this have to do with anything? Some of us have known how small we are for many years. It has nothing to do with this discussion.
[Moderator Note: Quote edited as the comment has been removed.]Edited by ZOS_PierreL on 22 February 2015 11:301 -
Grapdjan✭✭✭✭I just pick the herbs I want and I leave the worms and crap on them. I don't do extended farms, just grab a few here and there. If you want to clear my crap up you can, if you don't it doesn't bother me!
It would be quite a good tactic I'd have though t anyway to leave annoying plants and bugs around to wind a person such as the OP up enough that leave a nice herby area and go somewhere else.1 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just pick the herbs I want and I leave the worms and crap on them. I don't do extended farms, just grab a few here and there. If you want to clear my crap up you can, if you don't it doesn't bother me!
It would be quite a good tactic I'd have though t anyway to leave annoying plants and bugs around to wind a person such as the OP up enough that leave a nice herby area and go somewhere else.
You are the second or third person to suggest that causing other players some annoyance will lead them to leave. This is a pretty unrealistic expectation. No one is going to stop farming just because you left worms in a plant. If anything, they will clear the area of anything valuable, then come back later to see if you are gone. If I see someone leaving junk, I will do the same until the area is nothing but junk. The same stalemate occurs. Then I go farm somewhere else, and you are stuck with the junk. I'll come back later and start farming again, and if you are skipping nodes, I'll do the same thing. If you really want to have nothing to farm, we can all play that game too. You are not special or able to strategically discourage others from farming. You are just an annoyance who hurts efficiency for everyone including yourself.Edited by SFBryan18 on 22 February 2015 09:361 -
firstdecan✭✭✭✭✭
✭firstdecan wrote: »firstdecan wrote: »firstdecan wrote: »firstdecan wrote: »firstdecan wrote: »This reminds me of going to the blackjack tables in Vegas, and one of the other payers getting upset with me because I hit when I shouldn't have, took the card he wanted and won my hand. He said I was being dumb and wasn't playing for the table. I then proceeded to ask him if the table would have shared in my loss if I played for the table, and he stopped talking to me (thankfully).
So, why would I harvest plants I don't want if it means someone else will harvest the ones I do want?
It's nothing like blackjack. I already explained why clearing all of the nodes gives more spawn points for new plants so your question is redundant. If you are not going back to the nodes, you are not farming and this thread has little to do with you.
Just because you don't understand the concept doesn't mean there's no similarity, and just because you've taken the time to type something doesn't mean you've explained anything. If I'm farming, I'm going to spend my time grabbing the items I want. You can spend your time grabbing the items I don't want, thus increasing the chances of me finding the things I want. I don't need to grab everything just to increase your chances of finding something, especially when it comes at the expense of me finding something. If no one else is clearing the items, then I'll consider farming the items I don't want, but as long as there is competition for the items I want, that will be my focus.
I'm not playing for the table, I'm playing for my benefit. If you want me to play for your benefit, you need to explain to me where it is in my interest to do so, because right now you just come off as a upset that not everyone in an MMO agrees with you.
You fail to understand that by skipping nodes, you are decreasing your own chances as much as any others. And if we all play that game, your luck runs out.
No, by skipping nodes I'm decreasing your chances, which doesn't bother me in the least. I'm not playing for the table. If we all play that way there will be fewer people farming, less competition for the items I want, and then I might consider grabbing other nodes. But I'm not about to start clearing nodes I don't want just so someone else can grab the nodes I do want.
Given the lack of comprehension you've displayed about behavior in a competitive environment, you should refrain from making assumptions about what other people do and don't understand. If you stop farming, I'll clear all the nodes for my benefit. While you are farming, we are competing for the choice items, and that is where the focus of my attention will be.
You can be as mad as you want about that, but it's the way ZOS designed the system. Don't hate the player....
You are decreasing your own chances as well if you plan on returning to the area. If you do not return to the area, you are not farming and this thread has nothing to do with you.
Actually no, I'm not decreasing my chances in the same area. If no one else is there, then it makes sense to farm everything, because there is no competition for the items I want. If someone else is there, it only makes sense to grab the items I want before someone else does. If I grab everything while someone else is there, I'm only increasing his chances of finding "the good stuff" because all my time is being wasted on things I don't want. He can grab the things I don't want, and I can focus my attention on what I do want.
Again, I'm not playing for the table. It's also not for you to decide where or how I play, and where or how I may comment. You're limiting your rationalization to respawn rates of renewable resources, whereas my arguments lie on the benefits of competitive behavior. I completely understand your arguments, and if this was a single player game they would be completely valid. But this is not a single player game, and these forums are open for reasonable and constructive discussion. If you are intolerant of other people's opinions, then perhaps a discussion forum is not the best place to voice your opinions.
Your argument is a thinly veiled rationalization for why other players should change their behavior in order to improve your game experience. That's perfectly fine, there is an element of magnanimousness to your argument. The counter argument is that there is no incentive to engage in that behavior because in a competitive environment, magnanimousness will leave you with less reward for your efforts. You keep failing to see the reason in that because you've already decided your rationalizations are the only ones that are correct, despite the fact that other players are obviously engaging in the more productive competitive behavior.
I do not expect to be able to change your mind, you've decided that you're right and that's the way it's going to be. What I find odd is courteousness you expect from other players in the game is completely absent from your forum rant. This again leads back to how your argument is simply a rationalization to improve your game experience, not good advice for how players should behave to maximize benefit to themselves in a competitive environment.
As I said before, if everyone played like you, it would be a stalemate of junk. Is that what you want? Because that is when you will get less reward for your efforts due to a failure to work as a team player.
I'm fine with that. It will discourage people from farming, and leave less competition for what I want. Again, I'm not playing for the table. I don't want you farming, I don't want the competition for resources that I want. While you're farming, you can spend the time clearing the nodes, and I will grab the ones I want.
This is the system that ZOS designed, and this is how competition works in the real world. It's nothing personal, and if ZoS didn't want people fighting over virtual flowers in a virtual field, they should design a system with less scarcity. Or, they could redesign the effects of the ingredients so more than one or two combinations are actually useful, which would encourage people to pick more flowers, clear the nodes and increase the respawn rate. Regardless of any of that, you can't change the fact that competitive behavior will be the optimal behavior in a competitive environment. We are not a team. Unless you're sharing your bugloss harvest with me from the nodes that I spent the time to clear for you, I have no incentive to clear those nodes for you.
Don't assume anyone will back down and stop farming. Your attitude only slows efficiency. It's a shortsighted selfish point of view where you feel the need to compete with members of your own faction instead of working with them. Your desire to win at something will cause you to waste hours of time just to spite other players for attempting to play the same game as you. If you are proud of being that guy that ruins it for everyone else, then so be it. I hope I never run into you, because I'll collect everything of worth until there's nothing but blessed thistle, and it will be your fault, not mine.
And as the post above suggests, you'll likely just be competing against other people like you, while off in another zone, players who work efficiently, will be making much more than you. You're only hurting yourself in the long run, so congrats. You won nothing.
Wow, that's a whole lot of baseless assumptions. Nothing that I'm doing is spiteful, it's how competition works. You seem to think there's some type of efficiency in cooperation, but all you're encouraging other people to do is waste their time for your benefit. Really, you're the one being selfish here, demanding that other people waste their time just to appeal to your sensibilities regarding how the game should be played.
Competitive behavior is not short sighted and selfish, as a matter of fact it's the optimal behavior for the greatest benefit. You seem to think that by engaging in that behavior there will be fewer resources gathered, yet other people are engaging in that competitive behavior and getting acceptable yields. The fact of the matter is that I don't need to clear those nodes, someone else who wants those items will. Your argument to the contrary is entirely theoretical with no basis in reality.
As far as what I've "won" goes, I've won the resources that I want, and not wasted my time with what I don't want. That's hardly hurting myself. Also, if you choose to "collect everything of worth until there's nothing left but blessed thistle," I would congratulate you on spending your time better, and also allow you to realize that someone wants that blessed thistle and will be more than happy to collect it.
You're also ignoring the fact that by collecting everything, you're the one who is actually ruining the game experience for other players. If you're spending hours and hours in the exact same area and grabbing everything in sight, you're preventing other players from grabbing the items they want for their game play. This is the same behavior as camping bosses and preventing players from progressing through their quest lines. You're doing the exact same thing that bots do with the exception of automating the activity.
Your baseless insults and inaccurate moral judgments do not make you right. They only reveal you to be rationalizing your own selfishness. You've started a thread basically designed to ruin part of the typical gamers playing experience with some thinly veiled rationalization about your own self righteousness. You do not have the moral high ground here. What you're suggesting in this thread, and others are supporting, is collusion designed to make it impossible for anyone other than yourselves to engage in part of the game's activities.
I will farm just the items I want. Someone else will farm the items I don't want. What I'm doing is more efficient for me, and leaves resources for other players to gather. You take everything and leave nothing for anyone else. The behavior you engage in negatively impacts other players experience, and isn't even any more efficient as you claim it to be. The nodes will be cleared regardless of whether I clear them or not. I do not see the need to change my behavior just to appease another farmer, and one who is selfishly ruining the experiences of other players. I am not playing for the table, I do not have to waste my time for the benefit of other farmers. I play for my own benefit, and the efficiency of doing so provides the greatest benefit to me. Focusing on what I want gets me what I want faster, and leaves everything else available to be consumed by those who want those items. I am not ruining opportunities for other players, you are.
Given the direction this thread has taken, I expect ZoS will close it shortly due to the fact that it is no longer productive. I welcome them to do this, especially when taking into account the fact that the behavior you're seeking to encourage is designed to negatively impact the game experience of most players. Given that you've done nothing but use this thread to demonstrate how you and a cabal of like minded people are selfishly and needlessly pulling resources you don't want and not leaving them available for people who do, I hope ZoS uses this opportunity to take appropriate actions against your accounts.
4 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Plants will only respawn once the node has been taken. If someone is farming an area and they skip stuff they do not want, when they come back, those plants will still be there. If they take everything, when they come back, there will be new, and likely better plants available. By skipping plants you do not want, you are lowering your total available spawn points for better items. Seem pretty obvious?
I tested this.
I came across a node with two items in it, one was crawlers. I took the valuable material and left the crawlers. Then, I stood nearby and watched it. After a few minutes, the node disappeared. A few minutes more and a new node appeared.
Based on this, I believe that partially harvested nodes will be recycled. It may be a longer cycle, but they will not just stay there until someone harvests the whole thing.
I do not know what happens to nodes that are checked and left untouched, like the zillions of Ta nodes out there.
XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus3 -
Majic✭✭✭✭✭
Just sayin'Selfish, adj. Devoid of consideration for the selfishness of others.
-- Ambrose Bierce, The Unabridged Devil's Dictionary
P.S. I suppose I should also add that if ESO were to adopt the resource system Guild Wars 2 uses, where all players can loot any resource node without excluding it from anyone else, this thread and all the animosity that goes with it wouldn't exist.
A simple and sensible solution that I hope finds its way into ESO eventually, but ZOS is very busy with other things right now, so I'll just keep hoping they get around to it eventually.Edited by Majic on 22 February 2015 15:48Epopt Of The Everspinning Logo, Church Of The Eternal Loading Screen
And verily, verily, spaketh the Lord: "Error <<1>>"1 -
firstdecan✭✭✭✭✭
✭firstdecan wrote: »firstdecan wrote: »firstdecan wrote: »firstdecan wrote: »firstdecan wrote: »This reminds me of going to the blackjack tables in Vegas, and one of the other payers getting upset with me because I hit when I shouldn't have, took the card he wanted and won my hand. He said I was being dumb and wasn't playing for the table. I then proceeded to ask him if the table would have shared in my loss if I played for the table, and he stopped talking to me (thankfully).
So, why would I harvest plants I don't want if it means someone else will harvest the ones I do want?
It's nothing like blackjack. I already explained why clearing all of the nodes gives more spawn points for new plants so your question is redundant. If you are not going back to the nodes, you are not farming and this thread has little to do with you.
Just because you don't understand the concept doesn't mean there's no similarity, and just because you've taken the time to type something doesn't mean you've explained anything. If I'm farming, I'm going to spend my time grabbing the items I want. You can spend your time grabbing the items I don't want, thus increasing the chances of me finding the things I want. I don't need to grab everything just to increase your chances of finding something, especially when it comes at the expense of me finding something. If no one else is clearing the items, then I'll consider farming the items I don't want, but as long as there is competition for the items I want, that will be my focus.
I'm not playing for the table, I'm playing for my benefit. If you want me to play for your benefit, you need to explain to me where it is in my interest to do so, because right now you just come off as a upset that not everyone in an MMO agrees with you.
You fail to understand that by skipping nodes, you are decreasing your own chances as much as any others. And if we all play that game, your luck runs out.
No, by skipping nodes I'm decreasing your chances, which doesn't bother me in the least. I'm not playing for the table. If we all play that way there will be fewer people farming, less competition for the items I want, and then I might consider grabbing other nodes. But I'm not about to start clearing nodes I don't want just so someone else can grab the nodes I do want.
Given the lack of comprehension you've displayed about behavior in a competitive environment, you should refrain from making assumptions about what other people do and don't understand. If you stop farming, I'll clear all the nodes for my benefit. While you are farming, we are competing for the choice items, and that is where the focus of my attention will be.
You can be as mad as you want about that, but it's the way ZOS designed the system. Don't hate the player....
You are decreasing your own chances as well if you plan on returning to the area. If you do not return to the area, you are not farming and this thread has nothing to do with you.
Actually no, I'm not decreasing my chances in the same area. If no one else is there, then it makes sense to farm everything, because there is no competition for the items I want. If someone else is there, it only makes sense to grab the items I want before someone else does. If I grab everything while someone else is there, I'm only increasing his chances of finding "the good stuff" because all my time is being wasted on things I don't want. He can grab the things I don't want, and I can focus my attention on what I do want.
Again, I'm not playing for the table. It's also not for you to decide where or how I play, and where or how I may comment. You're limiting your rationalization to respawn rates of renewable resources, whereas my arguments lie on the benefits of competitive behavior. I completely understand your arguments, and if this was a single player game they would be completely valid. But this is not a single player game, and these forums are open for reasonable and constructive discussion. If you are intolerant of other people's opinions, then perhaps a discussion forum is not the best place to voice your opinions.
Your argument is a thinly veiled rationalization for why other players should change their behavior in order to improve your game experience. That's perfectly fine, there is an element of magnanimousness to your argument. The counter argument is that there is no incentive to engage in that behavior because in a competitive environment, magnanimousness will leave you with less reward for your efforts. You keep failing to see the reason in that because you've already decided your rationalizations are the only ones that are correct, despite the fact that other players are obviously engaging in the more productive competitive behavior.
I do not expect to be able to change your mind, you've decided that you're right and that's the way it's going to be. What I find odd is courteousness you expect from other players in the game is completely absent from your forum rant. This again leads back to how your argument is simply a rationalization to improve your game experience, not good advice for how players should behave to maximize benefit to themselves in a competitive environment.
As I said before, if everyone played like you, it would be a stalemate of junk. Is that what you want? Because that is when you will get less reward for your efforts due to a failure to work as a team player.
I'm fine with that. It will discourage people from farming, and leave less competition for what I want. Again, I'm not playing for the table. I don't want you farming, I don't want the competition for resources that I want. While you're farming, you can spend the time clearing the nodes, and I will grab the ones I want.
This is the system that ZOS designed, and this is how competition works in the real world. It's nothing personal, and if ZoS didn't want people fighting over virtual flowers in a virtual field, they should design a system with less scarcity. Or, they could redesign the effects of the ingredients so more than one or two combinations are actually useful, which would encourage people to pick more flowers, clear the nodes and increase the respawn rate. Regardless of any of that, you can't change the fact that competitive behavior will be the optimal behavior in a competitive environment. We are not a team. Unless you're sharing your bugloss harvest with me from the nodes that I spent the time to clear for you, I have no incentive to clear those nodes for you.
Uh huh.... and while you guys are "competing" in one area, I am meanwhile off all over the map collecting what I need buy the hundreds full because I did not confine myself to the same two by four zone that is affected by circuit spinning collectors competing with each other 8D
Good grief.
My argument there wasn't the best, and it presumes that everyone who is "picking flowers" in a given area is farming. If there is only 1 area we're "fighting" over it makes sense, but as you said, it can be easier to just go somewhere else. If you take into account that not everyone picking flowers in a certain area is a serial farmer, it makes sense to drive away other farmers. There's less competition for the one or two resources desired from farming, and the other players in the area still have plenty of resources for their characters.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]Edited by ZOS_MichelleA on 22 February 2015 18:121 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭@firstdecan there's too much wrong with what you wrote for me to even try to give a response since I feel no matter what I say, you will just stick to what you believe works better. Skipping nodes is not more efficient. That's pretty common sense and if you don't agree, then you're just wrong.2 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »Plants will only respawn once the node has been taken. If someone is farming an area and they skip stuff they do not want, when they come back, those plants will still be there. If they take everything, when they come back, there will be new, and likely better plants available. By skipping plants you do not want, you are lowering your total available spawn points for better items. Seem pretty obvious?
I tested this.
I came across a node with two items in it, one was crawlers. I took the valuable material and left the crawlers. Then, I stood nearby and watched it. After a few minutes, the node disappeared. A few minutes more and a new node appeared.
Based on this, I believe that partially harvested nodes will be recycled. It may be a longer cycle, but they will not just stay there until someone harvests the whole thing.
I do not know what happens to nodes that are checked and left untouched, like the zillions of Ta nodes out there.
I had a bit of a boring morning on PTS today.
If you even touch a resource node, it will respawn. It does not matter if you take anything or not. Merely looking at what is in it will force it to respawn. Sometimes the node was gone in 5 minutes. Other times it took over 10 minutes. In all cases, it respawned.
Nodes that are not touched to not respawn.
So, while the courtesy point is valid, it is not a dire matter if someone fails to take everything.
XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus1 -
firstdecan✭✭✭✭✭
✭@firstdecan there's too much wrong with what you wrote for me to even try to give a response since I feel no matter what I say, you will just stick to what you believe works better. Skipping nodes is not more efficient. That's pretty common sense and if you don't agree, then you're just wrong.
I'm not the one trying to conspire with others to ruin players' game experience. You're more than welcome to continue making your baseless assertions about what is wrong and what is not wrong. Also, "common sense" is not always the optimal answer, especially in complex systems where actors within that system do not have the same motivations. "Common sense" is an experience shared by people with the same level of intellectual myopia.
There's nothing wrong with my arguments, you simply have nothing to counter them other than your assertion that you are correct because you want to be. What we have discovered in the course of this conversation is this:- You are definitely acting out of self interest, because you want to increase your farming yields
- You are encouraging others to perform the same behavior, namely grabbing everything in sight
- Grabbing everything in sight will leave resource nodes unavailable for other players until they respawn
- Most of the resource nodes you are grabbing are nodes you have no interest in. You're simply gathering them so something else will eventually spawn there.
- Conspiring with other players to perform the same activity will leave resources completely unavailable to anyone outside of your cabal.
The nodes will be harvested by someone who wants them. Picking them all is less efficient for me, and detrimental to other players. The only person benefitting from picking all the nodes is the person who wants to leave a desolate field behind with no resources for anyone else. That behavior is what you accused me of being a bad person for, discouraging other people from collecting resources. My behavior is at least focused on getting something I want and limiting competition to just that. Your behavior is indiscriminate and affects every other player in the area.
This is a step beyond common sense, it's logic. There are other players in the game with motivations other than mine, and if I focus my efforts on my motivations I will accomplish them quicker. Focusing on my motivations leaves opportunity for others with different motivations to pursue what they want. It's a win-win. I don't waste my time on something I don't want, and it's now available for someone who does want it. They can collect it, it'll respawn, and I can keep focus on what I want. I'm still in competition with others who want the same things I do, but I'm not needlessly bullying other players by taking things I don't want just so no one else can have it.
There's so much wrong with what you wrote, but I'm able to describe what it is. Grabbing everything is not more efficient, and it's a detriment to the larger community. This may be "counter intuitive" to you, but given that we've already established your motivations to be completely out of self interest, it can be expected that your rationalizations will be skewed towards your self interest.
Here's a simple three step guide to make this easy
1 - Grab what you really want
2 - Let others grab the rest so you don't waste your time (allows them to get what they want too)
3 - Profit.
0 -
Soulshine✭✭✭✭✭
✭firstdecan wrote: »firstdecan wrote: »firstdecan wrote: »firstdecan wrote: »firstdecan wrote: »firstdecan wrote: »This reminds me of going to the blackjack tables in Vegas, and one of the other payers getting upset with me because I hit when I shouldn't have, took the card he wanted and won my hand. He said I was being dumb and wasn't playing for the table. I then proceeded to ask him if the table would have shared in my loss if I played for the table, and he stopped talking to me (thankfully).
So, why would I harvest plants I don't want if it means someone else will harvest the ones I do want?
It's nothing like blackjack. I already explained why clearing all of the nodes gives more spawn points for new plants so your question is redundant. If you are not going back to the nodes, you are not farming and this thread has little to do with you.
Just because you don't understand the concept doesn't mean there's no similarity, and just because you've taken the time to type something doesn't mean you've explained anything. If I'm farming, I'm going to spend my time grabbing the items I want. You can spend your time grabbing the items I don't want, thus increasing the chances of me finding the things I want. I don't need to grab everything just to increase your chances of finding something, especially when it comes at the expense of me finding something. If no one else is clearing the items, then I'll consider farming the items I don't want, but as long as there is competition for the items I want, that will be my focus.
I'm not playing for the table, I'm playing for my benefit. If you want me to play for your benefit, you need to explain to me where it is in my interest to do so, because right now you just come off as a upset that not everyone in an MMO agrees with you.
You fail to understand that by skipping nodes, you are decreasing your own chances as much as any others. And if we all play that game, your luck runs out.
No, by skipping nodes I'm decreasing your chances, which doesn't bother me in the least. I'm not playing for the table. If we all play that way there will be fewer people farming, less competition for the items I want, and then I might consider grabbing other nodes. But I'm not about to start clearing nodes I don't want just so someone else can grab the nodes I do want.
Given the lack of comprehension you've displayed about behavior in a competitive environment, you should refrain from making assumptions about what other people do and don't understand. If you stop farming, I'll clear all the nodes for my benefit. While you are farming, we are competing for the choice items, and that is where the focus of my attention will be.
You can be as mad as you want about that, but it's the way ZOS designed the system. Don't hate the player....
You are decreasing your own chances as well if you plan on returning to the area. If you do not return to the area, you are not farming and this thread has nothing to do with you.
Actually no, I'm not decreasing my chances in the same area. If no one else is there, then it makes sense to farm everything, because there is no competition for the items I want. If someone else is there, it only makes sense to grab the items I want before someone else does. If I grab everything while someone else is there, I'm only increasing his chances of finding "the good stuff" because all my time is being wasted on things I don't want. He can grab the things I don't want, and I can focus my attention on what I do want.
Again, I'm not playing for the table. It's also not for you to decide where or how I play, and where or how I may comment. You're limiting your rationalization to respawn rates of renewable resources, whereas my arguments lie on the benefits of competitive behavior. I completely understand your arguments, and if this was a single player game they would be completely valid. But this is not a single player game, and these forums are open for reasonable and constructive discussion. If you are intolerant of other people's opinions, then perhaps a discussion forum is not the best place to voice your opinions.
Your argument is a thinly veiled rationalization for why other players should change their behavior in order to improve your game experience. That's perfectly fine, there is an element of magnanimousness to your argument. The counter argument is that there is no incentive to engage in that behavior because in a competitive environment, magnanimousness will leave you with less reward for your efforts. You keep failing to see the reason in that because you've already decided your rationalizations are the only ones that are correct, despite the fact that other players are obviously engaging in the more productive competitive behavior.
I do not expect to be able to change your mind, you've decided that you're right and that's the way it's going to be. What I find odd is courteousness you expect from other players in the game is completely absent from your forum rant. This again leads back to how your argument is simply a rationalization to improve your game experience, not good advice for how players should behave to maximize benefit to themselves in a competitive environment.
As I said before, if everyone played like you, it would be a stalemate of junk. Is that what you want? Because that is when you will get less reward for your efforts due to a failure to work as a team player.
I'm fine with that. It will discourage people from farming, and leave less competition for what I want. Again, I'm not playing for the table. I don't want you farming, I don't want the competition for resources that I want. While you're farming, you can spend the time clearing the nodes, and I will grab the ones I want.
This is the system that ZOS designed, and this is how competition works in the real world. It's nothing personal, and if ZoS didn't want people fighting over virtual flowers in a virtual field, they should design a system with less scarcity. Or, they could redesign the effects of the ingredients so more than one or two combinations are actually useful, which would encourage people to pick more flowers, clear the nodes and increase the respawn rate. Regardless of any of that, you can't change the fact that competitive behavior will be the optimal behavior in a competitive environment. We are not a team. Unless you're sharing your bugloss harvest with me from the nodes that I spent the time to clear for you, I have no incentive to clear those nodes for you.
Uh huh.... and while you guys are "competing" in one area, I am meanwhile off all over the map collecting what I need buy the hundreds full because I did not confine myself to the same two by four zone that is affected by circuit spinning collectors competing with each other 8D
Good grief.
My argument there wasn't the best, and it presumes that everyone who is "picking flowers" in a given area is farming. If there is only 1 area we're "fighting" over it makes sense, but as you said, it can be easier to just go somewhere else. If you take into account that not everyone picking flowers in a certain area is a serial farmer, it makes sense to drive away other farmers. There's less competition for the one or two resources desired from farming, and the other players in the area still have plenty of resources for their characters.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]
My point is that this entire thread is predicated on a non issue with the game - it is entirely avoided if people make a choice other than to just camp out in an area to "farm." It seems totally silly to me and a waste of time when there are resources literally all over the place just waiting to be gathered. And this coming from someone who leveled enchanting to 50 well before the changes to rune nodes, let alone clothing, alchemy, provisioning, and now working on weaponsmithing.
I have literally come aways with 100s of mats in a single play session, and never had to engage in planting a flag down in one location to farm and duke it out with others.
Competitive behavior notwithstanding, the entire concept of "farming" as you already figured out futher down this thread in your own posts to the OP, is essentially the same as boting. That some people like to do it, I have no issue with whatsoever.
But I do have an issue when the bitching turns into someone saying I am doing the playerbase a disservice by taking only what I need vs every single node within site because that might somehow trip up someone's "formula" if they are camping a zone I happen to be passing through.
Stop camping mats and you will solve both sides of the problem.1 -
SteveCampsOut✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wow! Seriously? A whole thread whining about people not picking nodes and my comment on having a little perspective was removed? These forums are worthless now! For the record, pointing out that our small place in the grand scheme of things makes this whole discussion seem rather petty is perfectly on topic. You are making a lot of noise basically to tell people to play the way you want them to play regardless of what terms you are couching the discussion in.
And for the record, I pick every single node I come across. I do not cherry pick, but I have no issues with people who do. That's their play style and they are entitled to nerf themselves if they want to.Edited by SteveCampsOut on 22 February 2015 19:02@ֆȶɛʋɛƈǟʍքֆօʊȶ⍟
Sanguine & Psijic Group Beta Tester.
NA Server:Steforax Soulstrong CH782 Sorcerer ADEU Server:
Grumpy Kahjiti CH782 Dragonknight AD
Rheticia Le Drakisius CH782 Nightblade DC
Razmuzan Thrasmas CH782 Templar EP
Sheenara Soulstrong CH782 Dragonknight DC
Erik Ramzey CH782 Nightblade AD
Growling Kahjiti CH782 Nightblade EP
One of Many Faces CH782 Sorcerer DC
Grumpasaurus Rex CH782 Warden DCGuildmaster of Pacrooti's Hirelings AD Based LGBT Friendly Guild.
Stefrex Souliss CH701 Sorcerer AD
Grumpy Kahjiti CH701 Dragonknight DC
Slithisi Ksissi CH701 Nightblade EP
Pokes-With-Fire CH701 Dragonknight AD
Josie-The-Pussi-Cat CH701 Templar AD
Stug-Grog M'God CH701 Templar DC
One With Many Faces CH701 Nightblade DC
Trixie Truskan CH701 Sorcerer EP
Grumpetasaurus Rex CH701 Warden EP3 -
smacx250✭✭✭✭✭Don't assume anyone will back down and stop farming. Your attitude only slows efficiency. It's a shortsighted selfish point of view where you feel the need to compete with members of your own faction instead of working with them. Your desire to win at something will cause you to waste hours of time just to spite other players for attempting to play the same game as you. If you are proud of being that guy that ruins it for everyone else, then so be it. I hope I never run into you, because I'll collect everything of worth until there's nothing but blessed thistle, and it will be your fault, not mine.
And as the post above suggests, you'll likely just be competing against other people like you, while off in another zone, players who work efficiently, will be making much more than you. You're only hurting yourself in the long run, so congrats. You won nothing.
Actually, it could be beneficial because it may increase the scarcity of those items, increasing the sales price. And since he is focusing just on those components, he will probably pull in more of then in a given period of time than those who are grabbing everything. So it could be a beneficial decision to only harvest what you are looking for - especially if one isn't running a circuit and is covering "fresh" areas.
That said, I harvest everything I see - it is a sickness!
In fact, every plant is salable as they are useful for leveling alchemy, even if the resulting potions are junk (and the junk potions can still be sold to vendors). I have no problem selling any plants.
1 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭[
My point is that this entire thread is predicated on a non issue with the game - it is entirely avoided if people make a choice other than to just camp out in an area to "farm." It seems totally silly to me and a waste of time when there are resources literally all over the place just waiting to be gathered. And this coming from someone who leveled enchanting to 50 well before the changes to rune nodes, let alone clothing, alchemy, provisioning, and now working on weaponsmithing.
<snip>
Competitive behavior notwithstanding, the entire concept of "farming" as you already figured out futher down this thread in your own posts to the OP, is essentially the same as boting. That some people like to do it, I have no issue with whatsoever. But I do have an issue when the bitching turns into someone saying I am doing the playerbase a disservice by taking only what I need vs every single node within site because that might somehow trip up someone's "formula" if they are camping a zone I happen to be passing through.
Stop camping mats and you will solve both sides of the problem.
Wow, you said pretty much the things I was going to say and did a really polite and good job of it.
I'm willing to accept the word of the folks who say stuff respawns even if you only "leave the worms" or don't take it. I also have had the sad experience of being slightly too late or too slow and having some rude person gather everything up. That's not fun.
Now I'm hearing folks say that if I don't gather every spot in a given "farmable" area, I'm a bad guy. ..... Bah. That's too stingy hearted play for me.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis2 -
Psychobunni✭✭✭✭✭
✭People being choosy about which plants they pick isn't even on my radar when compared to people leaving worms, and the arse that sees fit to wait until after you are attack the mob next to a desired node to run in and snatch said node while you are fighting. Both of which should be considered griefing....
Solve those 2 issues, then we can talk abt ppl picking and choosing which nodes to grab.If options weren't necessary, and everyone played the same way, no one would use addons. Fix the UI!0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Psychobunni wrote: »People being choosy about which plants they pick isn't even on my radar when compared to people leaving worms, and the arse that sees fit to wait until after you are attack the mob next to a desired node to run in and snatch said node while you are fighting. Both of which should be considered griefing....
Solve those 2 issues, then we can talk abt ppl picking and choosing which nodes to grab.
I don't consider the person who leaves worms behind to be in the same category as someone who runs in while another player fights a mob over the resource.
Not even close.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus4 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭Don't assume anyone will back down and stop farming. Your attitude only slows efficiency. It's a shortsighted selfish point of view where you feel the need to compete with members of your own faction instead of working with them. Your desire to win at something will cause you to waste hours of time just to spite other players for attempting to play the same game as you. If you are proud of being that guy that ruins it for everyone else, then so be it. I hope I never run into you, because I'll collect everything of worth until there's nothing but blessed thistle, and it will be your fault, not mine.
And as the post above suggests, you'll likely just be competing against other people like you, while off in another zone, players who work efficiently, will be making much more than you. You're only hurting yourself in the long run, so congrats. You won nothing.
Actually, it could be beneficial because it may increase the scarcity of those items, increasing the sales price. And since he is focusing just on those components, he will probably pull in more of then in a given period of time than those who are grabbing everything. So it could be a beneficial decision to only harvest what you are looking for - especially if one isn't running a circuit and is covering "fresh" areas.
That said, I harvest everything I see - it is a sickness! In fact, every plant is salable as they are useful for leveling alchemy, even if the resulting potions are junk (and the junk potions can still be sold to vendors). I have no problem selling any plants.
I will tell you without a doubt that you collect all plants much faster when you pick up everything. I know this from many hours of farming. Leaving plants means there will be one less plant to harvest when you come back. Eventually, you're riding past several plants just to find one to the point where you can hardly find anything. While picking everything means you always get everything nonstop.Edited by SFBryan18 on 22 February 2015 22:371 -
Inco✭✭✭✭This is a common request in MMO's...
If you are harvesting an area please by all means grab everything... helps yourself out.
If you are just collecting that "ONE ITEM" you need.. then be nice to the next guy if you are getting MANY of them.
If you just grab what you need to finish something simple then great... carry on.
Don't be "THAT GUY" that goes and picks ONLY one item and runs around just looking for that one "rare" item leaving everything else alone.0 -
TicToc✭✭✭Ideally, they just need to make the worms, and such, not take up inventory space. I admit I am guilty of leaving worms from time to time, since I don't fish, and those are the first things I drop when I run out of inventory space. I take them when i can, but if my inventory is full and I loot a plant, the plant will stack, but the worm will have nowhere to go, so I leave it.
I don't think people are deliberately being rude. There is a game mechanic involved. They have made the game far too inventory intensive, and things like this are the result.
Edited by TicToc on 23 February 2015 23:222 -
Grapdjan✭✭✭✭Psychobunni wrote: »People being choosy about which plants they pick isn't even on my radar when compared to people leaving worms, and the arse that sees fit to wait until after you are attack the mob next to a desired node to run in and snatch said node while you are fighting. Both of which should be considered griefing....
Solve those 2 issues, then we can talk abt ppl picking and choosing which nodes to grab.
Griefing my arse. People seem to spend most the time screaming for realism - when it suits. Very handy when someone complete stranger is fighting a mob next to a chest/node, thereby allowing me to go use the said node unmolested. Plus, if I don;t want a worm in my bag, or if I only want to harvest columbine, then deal with it.
0 -
WhiskyBob✭✭✭✭✭I dont mind people leaving blessed thistle and dragonthorn behind.
It's obvious they havent been to PTS recently.
But hush.2 -
Woolenthreads✭✭✭✭
So come 1.6, if I want to go fishing and search a lot of plants for wormslordrichter wrote: »I had a bit of a boring morning on PTS today. If you even touch a resource node, it will respawn. It does not matter if you take anything or not. Merely looking at what is in it will force it to respawn. Sometimes the node was gone in 5 minutes. Other times it took over 10 minutes. In all cases, it respawned.
Nodes that are not touched to not respawn., a whole lot of people are going to get puzzled as their plants despawn/respawn right? 
.
Alternatively those with farming issues could just ask those who are selective to look at the contents of all the plants quickly?Oooh look, lot's of Butterflies! Wait! Butterflies? Get out of here Sheo, stop bugging me!
Having issues with Provisioning Writs? A list of problem Writs and people willing to help in game can be found in this Thread0
