Would you rather see Killer's Blade increased to 15 meters instead of healing?

Alphashado · February 2015

With Killer's Blade being converted to Stamina, it will be a wonderful skill for stamina builds. Using stamina to scale the damage has obvious advantages to melee stamina NBs.

That being said, it kinda sucks for a Bow build. Having to be within 5 meters to use it generally means that you will have to move in quite a bit.

So now while Impale sill works great for casting ranged builds, it is garbage for stamina ranged builds. That means that if you are playing a Bow build, you have to take Killer's Blade for decent DPS, and therefore you will always have to move into within 5 meters.

So my question is: Is the heal from KB really worth it in exchange for a 15M range?

I would take the range in exchange for the heal any day of the week. This change is another thing that makes the Bow feel sub par again compared to other ranged DPS

EDIT: on a side note, I don't understand why this post is getting loled? I advise you to scroll down and look at the difference in damage between the two when using a stamina build and tell yourself that Impale is still going to be worth it if you are running a stamina/Bow build. It does not seem like a funny or ridiculous question to me. So if you are going to lol this post, then please explain why, instead of just loling to be a troll.

RoyJade · February 2015

Bow build don't lose anything with the change of killer's blade, so it's not a nerf.
By the way, the bow already have an execute : one of the morph of the first bow competence. Empale is far more effective, but it's better than nothing.

Alphashado · February 2015

RoyJade wrote: »

Bow build don't lose anything with the change of killer's blade, so it's not a nerf.
By the way, the bow already have an execute : one of the morph of the first bow competence. Empale is far more effective, but it's better than nothing.

I believe most people were using Impale with a Bow build, as the difference in damage was minimal. That really isn't an option anymore. If you are running a stamina build on 1.6, Impale is garbage compared to KB.

And poison injection is not an execute.

Lava_Croft · February 2015

I would never choose anything but Impale, purely for the extended range.

Alphashado · February 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I would never choose anything but Impale, purely for the extended range.

The difference in damage between the two is incredibly significant now on 1.6, depending on your attributes. The below pics are with a stamina build and no pts in Magicka.

So with a stamina build, Impale is going to do roughly 30%-40% less base damage than KB. Now when you consider the 300% modifier...

Lava_Croft · February 2015

That is indeed a pretty large gap. Too bad hybrid builds are nearly useless on PTS right now.

LtCrunch · February 2015

I think most people would prefer the extended range over the self-heal. Pre-1.6 very few people ever used killer's blade instead of impale simply due to the flexibility the extended range offers.

So I vote "Yes"

Helluin · February 2015

With a bow stamina build as finisher, in 1.6 you have to forget Impale but already on live with high weapon dmg/stamina it's not the best dmg wise (but for using some magicka if low on stamina).
The only option is to go melee and use Killer's Blade but I prefer swap bar and use Executioner with 2H.
Killer's Blade can be more interesting in solo or in some situations in PvP.
Surely I miss the range of Impale and how it was working (more crit for stamina, more dmg and penetration for magicka without respec morphs when changing build).
It seems balanced because NB magicka build has a good finisher now at range, a stamina build has to go melee but it gains some healing.

If I have to choose as utility using a bow, Impale for sure, so more range.

With the skills using a stamina/magicka morph, I'd prefer to see the damage scaling off a common pool so a player would be able to choose according to the utility he/she prefers.
A common pool for Ultimates, Synergies and the class skills with stamina/magicka morphs infact would be great for this kind of skills but also to make hybrid builds more viable.

P.s. The magic damage on the tooltip: I don't know if it's something they forgot to change on it or it's intended.
This is mainly a matter about which penetration is used and some champion stars.

Alphashado · February 2015

Helluin wrote: »

With a bow stamina build as finisher, in 1.6 you have to forget Impale but already on live with high weapon dmg/stamina it's not the best dmg wise (but for using some magicka if low on stamina).
The only option is to go melee and use Killer's Blade but I prefer swap bar and use Executioner with 2H.
Killer's Blade can be more interesting in solo or in some situations in PvP.
Surely I miss the range of Impale and how it was working (more crit for stamina, more dmg and penetration for magicka without respec morphs when changing build).
It seems balanced because NB magicka build has a good finisher now at range, a stamina build has to go melee but it gains some healing.

If I have to choose as utility using a bow, Impale for sure, so more range.

With the skills using a stamina/magicka morph, I'd prefer to see the damage scaling off a common pool so a player would be able to choose according to the utility he/she prefers.
A common pool for Ultimates, Synergies and the class skills with stamina/magicka morphs infact would be great for this kind of skills but also to make hybrid builds more viable.

P.s. The magic damage on the tooltip: I don't know if it's something they forgot to change on it or it's intended.
This is mainly a matter about which penetration is used and some champion stars.

The bold print is the issue here. You are basically saying that Bow builds are not very optimal atm, and that is my point. A 15M range on KB would benefit both melee and ranged NBs. And the small heal that comes with KB is a bit of a joke compared to the advantage of range.

TheBull · February 2015

No need imo

Durann · February 2015

If they start changing such things, i'd be glad to have more damage on the next hit for lotus fan... instead of little aoe damage and dot. i vote yes

Helluin · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

The bold print is the issue here. You are basically saying that Bow builds are not very optimal atm, and that is my point. A 15M range on KB would benefit both melee and ranged NBs. And the small heal that comes with KB is a bit of a joke compared to the advantage of range.

Yes, I prefer more range with both melee and bow build.
Even if, let me say, it's balanced atm.
Surely the bonus of KB imho is fine but not enough meaningful for a NB bow user to go melee.

As design, I don't recall if it was in an interview or a live, you gain the best going melee as NB (NB ultimates for example, while Soul Assault and Meteor were designed to be also usable by bow users).
Piercing Mark/Reaper's Mark + Killer's Blade is a lot of healing back, so I'm not sure if some players mainly melee want to give up on that effect.
Killer's Blade would be more interesting as a melee finisher with a more meaningful effect but this is just my opinion. On live I presume the majority uses Impale.

I'd prefer KB with more range losing the healing effect, as you proposed, even as melee (it would not make sense anyway to have both morphs working in the same way; it would be easier to change how the skills with a stamina/magicka morph are scaling).
On a side note, maybe an HoT or a direct heal on another class skill or passive would be nice, since Strife and Leechining Strikes aren't working against damage shields.

Sacadon · February 2015

It's logical to me that they gave stamina users the shorter range morph as they should be better equipped to close the gap to a target that was ready for a finisher. In contrast, caster builds are expected to stay at range or become the squish that they are.

The value of the heal pales in comparison to to the range, regardless of stamina vs. magicka since you can just sap or strife as needed for heals. So in terms of usefulness, both should get the distance. Just not sure about the balance of such a change though as so little is known about 1.6. Bow may not be a well-rounded build yet, but it's certainly NOT without killing potential these days. Good players die in droves to the bow all day long now even without this skill.

@Alphashado‌, what were your attributes on 1.6 when you took the screen captures? Just want to be sure they were 0 and you are not wearing any weapon or spell power glyphs since those affect the damage shown in tooltips. If the stamina option is more powerful regardless of resource pools, very nice!

BTW, It seems to me that the ZOS team working on NB skills for 1.6 didn't want to touch a lot of the code for skills. Why else would they leave Lotus Fan so gimped for magicka PvP players. Although the DK team had time to include a re-write of the inferno skill plus t@rd-up the animation, but I digress.

Tavore1138 · February 2015

Impale was always the better choice for melee as well.

Great for a final blow on those people fleeing combat and great medium distance execute for bosses.

I will stick with it even with magicka, my stamina pool drains too fast on 1.6.1 anyway so having a couple of magika morphs will keep me slice longer until they get their heads out of the sand.

Helluin · February 2015

Sacadon wrote: »

If the stamina option is more powerful regardless of resource pools, very nice!

When I checked those without any modifier, armor, weapon, attribute points, etc. the dmg was the same in both magicka and stamina morphs.
Checking Deltia's site, it should be how I recall.

Alphashado · February 2015

Helluin wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

If the stamina option is more powerful regardless of resource pools, very nice!

When I checked those without any modifier, armor, weapon, attribute points, etc. the dmg was the same in both magicka and stamina morphs.
Checking Deltia's site, it should be how I recall.

Yes, they are exactly the same base damage until you add either stamina or magicka. Such indeed is my point. Impale damage increases dramatically with magicka and KB damage increases dramatically with stamina.

As many have mentioned recently, hybrid builds are not very good in 1.6 because of the soft cap removal. So if you are running a Bow build, you simply must stack stamina if you want to do competitive damage. And as the pictures above demonstrate, stacking stamina makes Impale do around 40% less dmg then KB.

Sacadon wrote: »

@Alphashado‌, what were your attributes on 1.6 when you took the screen captures?

I have stamina stacked with zero pts into magicka. If it were the other way around, Impale would be doing vastly more damage than KB. I'm trying to demonstrate how gimped a Bow build is in 1.6 if you take Impale for the range, and asking people if they would rather see KB with a 15 meter range instead of the 17% heal in light of the significant difference in dmg.

AlnilamE · February 2015

So you pretty much want to make both morphs the same, just one off stamina and one off magicka?

Where's the fun in that?

Alphashado · February 2015

AlnilamE wrote: »

So you pretty much want to make both morphs the same, just one off stamina and one off magicka?

Where's the fun in that?

That's exactly what I want to see. If ZoS is serious about making stamina builds equal to magicka builds, than this is the kind of thing that should be changed.

And they wouldn't have to be exactly the same. You could add whatever other difference you wanted, just so long as the damage and range were the same advantage to stamina builds as it is to magicka builds.

Right now on 1.6, Magicka built NBs have a very dramatic advantage over a stamina built NB with the class execute.

Vordae · February 2015

They should do what they did with Surge and rework the base skill. Make the base ability have 15 meter range. The stamina users take Killers blade and get the heal. Magika users take Impale and its range gets increased to 28 meters. Win/win

Alphashado · February 2015

Vordae wrote: »

They should do what they did with Surge and rework the base skill. Make the base ability have 15 meter range. The stamina users take Killers blade and get the heal. Magika users take Impale and its range gets increased to 28 meters. Win/win

That is a great suggestion.

Lethal_Instinct · February 2015

I don't understand why they don't just give players the option of choosing which resource pool these particular skills use when a player selects them. Not every skill should be given the option because it just doesn't make sense to conjure a magical orb using stamina.

An example of this idea:
If you are a magicka build, when you choose the initial skill (Assassin's Blade), you choose whether it is stamina-based or magicka-based (opting for this choice), then continue on with the morphs (either Killer's Blade or Impale), still using the same resource.

I'd also propose they change the animation effects between the stamina-based skills and magicka-based skills. Stamina-based attacks should appear more physical whereas magicka-based skills should incorporate magical effects.

Helluin · February 2015

The difference is already on target, when you use KB there is a sort of blood glowing effect on target.

28 meters as a ranged finisher (add the bonus range in AvA) imho would be too much.
Yes, I would like it but it wouldn't be balanced.

Maybe better a side effect to restore magicka for Impale and stamina for KB. Executioner (passive skill) then could change its effect into restoring health or improving crit or dmg on low health targets (it would even fit better the name).

Vordae · February 2015

Helluin wrote: »

The difference is already on target, when you use KB there is a sort of blood glowing effect on target.

28 meters as a ranged finisher (add the bonus range in AvA) imho would be too much.
Yes, I would like it but it wouldn't be balanced.

Maybe better a side effect to restore magicka for Impale and stamina for KB. Executioner (passive skill) then could change its effect into restoring health or improving crit or dmg on low health targets (it would even fit better the name).

Sorc finisher is and has been for a year 28 meters. Making our Magicka finisher match there's in distance is balanced, not OP.

xaraan · February 2015

I'm kind of torn on this. I do hate Killer's Blade as it is now for my bow build, but for my other stam builds it is awesome and I'd rather have the heal than the range. Using Impale is a crappy option as it doesn't do that much compared the the stam version, especially once scaled up.

If I had to choose, I'm fine as is. I can work my way up a bit in a boss fight to get in melee range for finishing a boss off if it's that important. On trash it's not as needed and usually people get in your face anyway.

I'm much more concerned with them fixing bow all together at this point, otherwise I probably won't be using it much.

AlnilamE · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

So you pretty much want to make both morphs the same, just one off stamina and one off magicka?

Where's the fun in that?

That's exactly what I want to see. If ZoS is serious about making stamina builds equal to magicka builds, than this is the kind of thing that should be changed.

And they wouldn't have to be exactly the same. You could add whatever other difference you wanted, just so long as the damage and range were the same advantage to stamina builds as it is to magicka builds.

Right now on 1.6, Magicka built NBs have a very dramatic advantage over a stamina built NB with the class execute.

"equal to magicka builds" as in all skills are the same and who cares which pool is being used?

Again, that's boring. You should have to choose. If the execute doesn't work for you as a bow user, then use another skill. Or move in for the execute, since the target will be weak.

Now, don't get me wrong. On live right now, my main is a hybrid NB, which is not going to work so well in 1.6. But I like the idea of when you chose a morph, there are pros and cons to the choice. If every morph has a "right" choice, then there is no fun and no variability in builds.

Same thing with having the NB finisher be the same range as the sorc finisher. I still say no. Sorcs are different from NBs. If you are going to have the exact same range/damage/effect, just with different animations, it becomes really boring.

Awdwyn · February 2015

Melee stamina nb here. Definitely prefer killers blade to impale even on live scaling off magicka. At rank 4 that heal is nothing to scoff at and when used properly it can easily be the difference between killing a pack of 5-6 mobs vs death

Alphashado · February 2015

Awdwyn wrote: »

Melee stamina nb here. Definitely prefer killers blade to impale even on live scaling off magicka. At rank 4 that heal is nothing to scoff at and when used properly it can easily be the difference between killing a pack of 5-6 mobs vs death

Nobody is debating the value of KB in a melee build. The issue here is that neither KB or Impale is optimal for a Bow in 1.6

The Bow is treated like ZoS's red headed step child. It's always an afterthought and an oversight.

Father · February 2015

Yeah I really don't like the range of KB, Impale is nice vs. these annoying sorcs stacking shield when their hp is like 5% haha ^_^

Awdwyn · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

Awdwyn wrote: »

Melee stamina nb here. Definitely prefer killers blade to impale even on live scaling off magicka. At rank 4 that heal is nothing to scoff at and when used properly it can easily be the difference between killing a pack of 5-6 mobs vs death

Nobody is debating the value of KB in a melee build. The issue here is that neither KB or Impale is optimal for a Bow in 1.6

The Bow is treated like ZoS's red headed step child. It's always an afterthought and an oversight.

Perhaps I didn't communicate my thought clearly. By removing the heal and adding range, the skill effectively becomes much less useful in melee - albeit somewhat more useful at range. I would prefer to see a bow skill tweaked to add the finisher component to it. This would be an overall buff to bows, without a nerf to an alternative playstyle.