Derra wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

It's incredibly easy to keep refreshing 20 second shields safe in the knowledge that you are effectively immune from crits, procs, dots though...

1v1 I agree, maybe even 1v2 or 1v3 depending on just how good that Sorc is. 1vX that just isn't the case which is why this is a non-issue. Enough pressure on that Sorc and those Shields will drop fast thus draining all that Magicka fast resulting in dead Sorc, just like any other "unkillable" build. You get a good group of 6-8 on even an Emperor and they're going down. Yes it'll take that group a while but that's kind of the point with Emps. I realize this build reaching those numbers outside of being Emp but that doesn't change anything.

The 20 second duration means nothing if the Shield is dropped in 1-3 seconds, as it can be with high damage builds. If all the Sorc is doing is reapplying Shields every 1.3s (animation CD) then nobody will care as they aren't doing any dmg.

100% This.
Shields are balanced for open field grp combat. Where they are fine. You can´t even tank two people that actually know what they are doing with shields.

Cast them take the 1 second breathing time you get and move your a**. Else you´re dead.

Edit: They are 100% not fine in 1v1 encounters. I agree with that. It´s just that i don´t see a way to make them vaible in both scenarios.

Don't make them stackable andno rebuild of Shield until it's completely down. (Like it was in the early state of the game..)
Example: you cast Harness and get a Shield, Hardend Ward won't stack on it. If I attack you and hit it down to 10%, casting again won't rebuild the shield to 100%.

Pros: timing more useful, Shield stacking less powerful
Cons: no Shield stack

Well Set procs shouldn't get affected by that, it would make them useless, cause every class runs a Shield all the time.

Digiman wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

It's incredibly easy to keep refreshing 20 second shields safe in the knowledge that you are effectively immune from crits, procs, dots though...

1v1 I agree, maybe even 1v2 or 1v3 depending on just how good that Sorc is. 1vX that just isn't the case which is why this is a non-issue. Enough pressure on that Sorc and those Shields will drop fast thus draining all that Magicka fast resulting in dead Sorc, just like any other "unkillable" build. You get a good group of 6-8 on even an Emperor and they're going down. Yes it'll take that group a while but that's kind of the point with Emps. I realize this build reaching those numbers outside of being Emp but that doesn't change anything.

The 20 second duration means nothing if the Shield is dropped in 1-3 seconds, as it can be with high damage builds. If all the Sorc is doing is reapplying Shields every 1.3s (animation CD) then nobody will care as they aren't doing any dmg.

100% This.
Shields are balanced for open field grp combat. Where they are fine. You can´t even tank two people that actually know what they are doing with shields.

Cast them take the 1 second breathing time you get and move your a**. Else you´re dead.

Edit: They are 100% not fine in 1v1 encounters. I agree with that. It´s just that i don´t see a way to make them vaible in both scenarios.

Don't make them stackable andno rebuild of Shield until it's completely down. (Like it was in the early state of the game..)
Example: you cast Harness and get a Shield, Hardend Ward won't stack on it. If I attack you and hit it down to 10%, casting again won't rebuild the shield to 100%.

Pros: timing more useful, Shield stacking less powerful
Cons: no Shield stack

Well Set procs shouldn't get affected by that, it would make them useless, cause every class runs a Shield all the time.

I think your derailing the thread into just shields problems. This is about sorcerer pet builds and their only ability to survive is to stack shields.

Eitherway your idea will simply cripple sorcerers back to becoming easy to kill targets.

Right now as a Sorcerer all I have to look forward to is 4 slots, 2 on each weapon bar, 2 Shields on each bar and 2 attack abilities.

Does that even seem like a huge problem to contend with shields stacking? When the caster is spending so much of his resources and time keep the shields up? Would complain about a tank with never ending stamina that keeps his health above 90% while just standing there blocking?

Tell me more about this huge amount resources for Harness and Hardend stacking.
It costs nearly nothing except time..

If sorc is an easy kill without Shield stack, what is NB then? Walking free AP?
Don't tell me that we could use cloak, the chance that it work is like 20%.
Our other defense ability 'blur' let us dodge our own heals and is suicide against heavy attacks.

Shield stacking is too strong in 1v1, that's a solution and it has something to do with this thread here, cause no other build is able to get shields that high.

Soulac wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

It's incredibly easy to keep refreshing 20 second shields safe in the knowledge that you are effectively immune from crits, procs, dots though...

1v1 I agree, maybe even 1v2 or 1v3 depending on just how good that Sorc is. 1vX that just isn't the case which is why this is a non-issue. Enough pressure on that Sorc and those Shields will drop fast thus draining all that Magicka fast resulting in dead Sorc, just like any other "unkillable" build. You get a good group of 6-8 on even an Emperor and they're going down. Yes it'll take that group a while but that's kind of the point with Emps. I realize this build reaching those numbers outside of being Emp but that doesn't change anything.

The 20 second duration means nothing if the Shield is dropped in 1-3 seconds, as it can be with high damage builds. If all the Sorc is doing is reapplying Shields every 1.3s (animation CD) then nobody will care as they aren't doing any dmg.

100% This.
Shields are balanced for open field grp combat. Where they are fine. You can´t even tank two people that actually know what they are doing with shields.

Cast them take the 1 second breathing time you get and move your a**. Else you´re dead.

Edit: They are 100% not fine in 1v1 encounters. I agree with that. It´s just that i don´t see a way to make them vaible in both scenarios.

Don't make them stackable andno rebuild of Shield until it's completely down. (Like it was in the early state of the game..)
Example: you cast Harness and get a Shield, Hardend Ward won't stack on it. If I attack you and hit it down to 10%, casting again won't rebuild the shield to 100%.

Pros: timing more useful, Shield stacking less powerful
Cons: no Shield stack

Well Set procs shouldn't get affected by that, it would make them useless, cause every class runs a Shield all the time.

I think your derailing the thread into just shields problems. This is about sorcerer pet builds and their only ability to survive is to stack shields.

Eitherway your idea will simply cripple sorcerers back to becoming easy to kill targets.

Right now as a Sorcerer all I have to look forward to is 4 slots, 2 on each weapon bar, 2 Shields on each bar and 2 attack abilities.

Does that even seem like a huge problem to contend with shields stacking? When the caster is spending so much of his resources and time keep the shields up? Would complain about a tank with never ending stamina that keeps his health above 90% while just standing there blocking?

Tell me more about this huge amount resources for Harness and Hardend stacking.
It costs nearly nothing except time..

If sorc is an easy kill without Shield stack, what is NB then? Walking free AP?
Don't tell me that we could use cloak, the chance that it work is like 20%.
Our other defense ability 'blur' let us dodge our own heals and is suicide against heavy attacks.

Shield stacking is too strong in 1v1, that's a solution and it has something to do with this thread here, cause no other build is able to get shields that high.

That's your problem, you look and say because you can't tear through a sorcerer with 2 shields stacked on and barely any real method of attacks other then pets and scream bloody murder.

Even with the Harness magicka restoring magicka that only works on magical hits. So basically your saying as a stamina based class (Nightblade) who isn't completely reliant on Magicka can't come up with a simple build to wipe the sorcerer out without refueling his magicka bar?

Straining by staying on their ass as you cut away? If things get to much? Siphon the pets health? You can't come up with anything a NB can do to force the sorcerer to burn out his magicka instead of refill it?

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

It's incredibly easy to keep refreshing 20 second shields safe in the knowledge that you are effectively immune from crits, procs, dots though...

1v1 I agree, maybe even 1v2 or 1v3 depending on just how good that Sorc is. 1vX that just isn't the case which is why this is a non-issue. Enough pressure on that Sorc and those Shields will drop fast thus draining all that Magicka fast resulting in dead Sorc, just like any other "unkillable" build. You get a good group of 6-8 on even an Emperor and they're going down. Yes it'll take that group a while but that's kind of the point with Emps. I realize this build reaching those numbers outside of being Emp but that doesn't change anything.

The 20 second duration means nothing if the Shield is dropped in 1-3 seconds, as it can be with high damage builds. If all the Sorc is doing is reapplying Shields every 1.3s (animation CD) then nobody will care as they aren't doing any dmg.

100% This.
Shields are balanced for open field grp combat. Where they are fine. You can´t even tank two people that actually know what they are doing with shields.

Cast them take the 1 second breathing time you get and move your a**. Else you´re dead.

Edit: They are 100% not fine in 1v1 encounters. I agree with that. It´s just that i don´t see a way to make them vaible in both scenarios.

Don't make them stackable andno rebuild of Shield until it's completely down. (Like it was in the early state of the game..)
Example: you cast Harness and get a Shield, Hardend Ward won't stack on it. If I attack you and hit it down to 10%, casting again won't rebuild the shield to 100%.

Pros: timing more useful, Shield stacking less powerful
Cons: no Shield stack

Well Set procs shouldn't get affected by that, it would make them useless, cause every class runs a Shield all the time.

I can agree on no stacking.
Not refreshable is beyond me. It makes no sense. Ppl would just tickle your shield to 5% on purpose and then give you a big hit putting you directly into execute range. No thx.

Edit: Thats like saying NB cloak should not evade projectiles already fired. I guess you would not be a fan of that?

Well it was like that before, you still survived.
It just pretend Shield spamming and needs some timing.. Don't even know why they changed it.

Cloak is *** anyway and there are other ways to ignore projectiles, so I would be fine with it.

Yeah i survived when it was not possible to literally 1shot my hp pool. Even two shot was not possible back then. You´re comparing apples to oranges.

It would simply not need any timing at all. I would light attack your shield till 5 or 10% then put time explosion and curse on you streakstun through block and overload light attack. Voila there is your instant kill combo. about 25k dmg if nothing crits. You could even add the sorc finisher debuff just for the lulz.
There is no way you can survive that with shields not being refreshed.

Late Edit: Don´t come here complaining about cloak. It works fine against the class you´re complaining about in a 1v1 scenario.
If you want to talk about not working cloak i will start complaining about my shields being worthless outside of 1v1.

DeLindsay wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

It's incredibly easy to keep refreshing 20 second shields safe in the knowledge that you are effectively immune from crits, procs, dots though...

1v1 I agree, maybe even 1v2 or 1v3 depending on just how good that Sorc is. 1vX that just isn't the case which is why this is a non-issue. Enough pressure on that Sorc and those Shields will drop fast thus draining all that Magicka fast resulting in dead Sorc, just like any other "unkillable" build. You get a good group of 6-8 on even an Emperor and they're going down. Yes it'll take that group a while but that's kind of the point with Emps. I realize this build reaching those numbers outside of being Emp but that doesn't change anything.

The 20 second duration means nothing if the Shield is dropped in 1-3 seconds, as it can be with high damage builds. If all the Sorc is doing is reapplying Shields every 1.3s (animation CD) then nobody will care as they aren't doing any dmg.

Nobody should be completely immune to all burst dmg in 1v1 or 1v2 though.

Also, only the very best burst builds in the game have an even remote chance of cracking this kind of sheilding and the only chance they have at doing so without being melted is by also stacking shields. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous at best, as is pretending that shielding like this does not grant exceptional survivability in group situations compared to non-magicka-based damage builds. They will only get better as champions points are accrued as well.

Derra wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

It's incredibly easy to keep refreshing 20 second shields safe in the knowledge that you are effectively immune from crits, procs, dots though...

1v1 I agree, maybe even 1v2 or 1v3 depending on just how good that Sorc is. 1vX that just isn't the case which is why this is a non-issue. Enough pressure on that Sorc and those Shields will drop fast thus draining all that Magicka fast resulting in dead Sorc, just like any other "unkillable" build. You get a good group of 6-8 on even an Emperor and they're going down. Yes it'll take that group a while but that's kind of the point with Emps. I realize this build reaching those numbers outside of being Emp but that doesn't change anything.

The 20 second duration means nothing if the Shield is dropped in 1-3 seconds, as it can be with high damage builds. If all the Sorc is doing is reapplying Shields every 1.3s (animation CD) then nobody will care as they aren't doing any dmg.

100% This.
Shields are balanced for open field grp combat. Where they are fine. You can´t even tank two people that actually know what they are doing with shields.

Cast them take the 1 second breathing time you get and move your a**. Else you´re dead.

Edit: They are 100% not fine in 1v1 encounters. I agree with that. It´s just that i don´t see a way to make them vaible in both scenarios.

Agreed, people still speak of this as if every single encounter is ultimately not a battle of resources.

Every fight out there involves running out the other player's before he/she runs out yours. It's not as if you can stand there and be invincible. If all you're doing is stacking shields, you're also not killing the other guy.

This gets oversimplified far too much.

Soulac wrote: »

Don't make them stackable and no rebuild of Shield until it's completely down. (Like it was in the early state of the game..)
Example: you cast Harness and get a Shield, Hardend Ward won't stack on it. If I attack you and hit it down to 10%, casting again won't rebuild the shield to 100%.

Pros: timing more useful, Shield stacking less powerful
Cons: no Shield stack

Well Set procs shouldn't get affected by that, it would make them useless, cause every class runs a Shield all the time.

@Soulac , which would result in the other shields getting cranked up more (You hate healing ward now?) or skills being rendered obsolete. (They're working hard on the 2nd one now.)

No refresh is pointless, as it would simply be dispelled and refreshed - you'd gain what, half a second?

Your actual shield doesn't have a damage limit - it's based on your stamina pool (how long you can hold it up and take hits). It has no cooldown. You don't have to choose between using your armor or your shield, now do you?

You want to make magical shield use our magicka pool instead (pretty sure you don't want to go there.)

It still takes resources, same as every build, same as every fight.

If you intend to propose to take that away, it would lead to everyone wearing heavy (the exact opposite end of the same problem) or we should have a method to invalidate 75% of your protection as well.

Perhaps your armor should fall off entirely every 20-30 seconds and require you to get dressed again in the middle of battle?

Come on.

McDoogs wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

It's incredibly easy to keep refreshing 20 second shields safe in the knowledge that you are effectively immune from crits, procs, dots though...

1v1 I agree, maybe even 1v2 or 1v3 depending on just how good that Sorc is. 1vX that just isn't the case which is why this is a non-issue. Enough pressure on that Sorc and those Shields will drop fast thus draining all that Magicka fast resulting in dead Sorc, just like any other "unkillable" build. You get a good group of 6-8 on even an Emperor and they're going down. Yes it'll take that group a while but that's kind of the point with Emps. I realize this build reaching those numbers outside of being Emp but that doesn't change anything.

The 20 second duration means nothing if the Shield is dropped in 1-3 seconds, as it can be with high damage builds. If all the Sorc is doing is reapplying Shields every 1.3s (animation CD) then nobody will care as they aren't doing any dmg.

Nobody should be completely immune to all burst dmg in 1v1 or 1v2 though.

Also, only the very best burst builds in the game have an even remote chance of cracking this kind of sheilding and the only chance they have at doing so without being melted is by also stacking shields. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous at best, as is pretending that shielding like this does not grant exceptional survivability in group situations compared to non-magicka-based damage builds. They will only get better as champions points are accrued as well.

@McDoogs‌ , no one is. It's a resources race, as it always has been. I'm pretty sure there is no one out there that is outright unkillable. Are people oneshotting the 35k hp DK's with the absurd amount of armor and Spell Resist now? I doubt that either scenario is the norm.

LA already got cut in half again, and HA now has no penalty to Spell resist?

Adjustments still need to be made, but this thinking that one build has to have superiority over another is ridiculous. You're complaining about it being one way, when in fact you're asking for it to be the other.

You also can't balance sorcs around the 5% of the population in perfect gear and running one specific build in Cyrodil. Most sorcs will not be running two pets, legendary necropotence, healer ring set.

On a related note, I hate sorc dependance on toggle skills. The build Sabre posits has three of them. That may be effective, but what a boring 'derp' playstyle when you have but two actives per bar.

So perma blocking (with cc immunity) and/or perma reflecting one person while having huge self heals is OK. But having a large damage shield and being cc vulnerable is not?

Don't try to tell me that stam builds lack damage

Both setups requires gear and build dedicated to the result.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

An example build is:

Destro:
Pet
Pet
Bound Armor
Crushing Shock
Daedric Prey

Resto:
Pet
Pet
Bound Armor
Empowered Ward
Bolt Escape

If you kill the Twilight pet (10,169hp), the sorcerer has to summon it again, and it has a cast time of 1.5 seconds. During that time it's fairly easy to interrupt or stun him.
I don't think that this build has a good DPS output. Shield stacking may work well with it but the Conjured Ward is still less effective than a Hardened Ward and adding the Healing Ward of the restoration staff tree is probably stronger than stacking all those pets.
With all those filled slots you're also missing out on Surge/Entropy and the 20% boost to spell damage from the Major Sorcery buff.

Also, good luck with 5 sturdy VR12 pieces of the Necropotence set.

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

So perma blocking (with cc immunity) and/or perma reflecting one person while having huge self heals is OK. But having a large damage shield and being cc vulnerable is not?

Don't try to tell me that stam builds lack damage

Both setups requires gear and build dedicated to the result.

You seem to not understand that while the stamina build doesn't lack damage, it also isn't stacking 20k+ of shields on itself and sure as hell isn't blocking (because all you bads whining about blocking on live) meaning an actual stamina build specced as glass cannon is actually a glass cannon..

Unlike Light Armor shield stacking setups that have the best of both worlds, Lots of damage and lots of defense.