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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/

Drinks:The math, Real numbers for ZOS

Pyatra
Pyatra
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Hello Everyone,

I did some number crunching on my VR14 Sorc. He is spec'ed to make Max and Regen Magicka explode by huge %'s. This was a pain in my butt btw, so someone better pass this on to the ZOS because I have quantified the amount to adjust drinks by.

Please note:
This has nothing to do with shield stackers and other problematic regen systems or equipment bonus being too high on Regens. This is ONLY in relation to making Drinks on par with Food.

Assumed:
We are using my High Elf Sorc wearing light armor, gear does NOT change between the 2 tries... these are real numbers.
2000 magicka per average spell
Using VR5 Food&Drink both Green quality (maximizes the Magicka stats)
Base Regen Stat is 1274 or (637 Magicka per second)
21000 Magicka base *seriously it really is 21000 even, lucky us.

Drinks:
+187 becomes +271 bonus Regen For green, assuming racials, gear, and passives. Yeah, my % bonus to MR is sick isn't it!
NewMagicka Regen = 1544 or 772/sec
21000 Max Magicka/ 2000 per attack
10.5 worth of seconds (or spells)
D = 10.5

Food:
+3720 becomes +4315 Max Magicka after green food, and assuming all my racials, gear, and passives.
25315 Max Magicka/ 2000 per attack
12.5 worth of Seconds (or spells)
F=12.5 Seconds
{12.3% Damage increase from raised stats. Yes I got this from my actual skills, 3 of the damaging ones: Crushing Shock, Volcanic Rune, Crystal Shards.}

So now we got the numbers... let's do some math!

Drinks
D = 10.5 initial seconds
772/sec * 10.5 = 8106
8106/2000 = 4.053 seconds more = Y
4.053 * 772 = 3128.916
3128.916/2000 = 1.56 Seconds more = X
X+Y+D = 16.11 Seconds O' Fun

*No damage increase.


Food
F = 12.5 initial seconds
637/sec * 12.5 = 7962.5
7962.5/2000 = 3.98 seconds more = Y
3.98 * 637= 2536
2536/2000 = 1.26 Seconds more = X
X+Y+F = 17.74 Seconds O' Fun

{*Effective food seconds if we used Drink's DPS}
1.123*(X+Y+F) = 19.922



Beyond the initial run
You can extend the time with other resource management options and at first glance you could make drinks work... but since skills that are used for resource management scale with max associated stat.... food still wins.


Food vs. Drink and elemental drain for the whole family
Assumed:
Max Magicka modifies regen on elemental drain *proven, it actually does.
We assume that elemental drain would be cast before our previous timers so we can use those numbers.
Average magicka is still 2000 per skill cast.

Buffed Elemental Drain regen = 345
Base regen on elemental = 287

Formula would be:
Seconds*Elem Drain Regen = Total Elem Drain return over time

Drink = 16.11 * 287 = 4623.57 Magicka
or
Food = 17.74 * 345 = 6120.3 Magicka

Now let's put that in seconds:
Drink
(4623.57/2000) + 16.11 = 18.4 Seconds

Food
(6120.3/2000) + 17.74 = 20.8 Seconds

BUT WAIT! We are doing a DPS weave... so we multiple Food by our old friend 1.123 which means for DPS: 1 Food Second is actually 1.123 equivalent seconds in Drink damage.

So food bring the effective seconds for DPS
20 * 1.123 = 23.4 Drink seconds


Conclusion:
So we have our 2 final sets of Calculations, these will show us how much we need to up drink buffs:
No ED: Food seconds/ Drink Seconds
19.92/16.11 = (1.24 or 124%)

ED: Food seconds/ Drink Seconds
23.4/18.4 = (1.27 or 127%)

Too long did not read: Otherwise known as I hate you
I would suggest to ZOS an increase of around 27% to all drink Buffs or just make the blasted things stack.

EDIT:Numbers you don't see because I'm tired: it would take around 79 seconds for the current Drink buffs to catch up to the Food buffs but only assuming you are not using elemental drain or any other Max Magicka based resource management skills

EDIT: Referencing a thread on the don't make them stack stance.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/150423/zos-dont-make-food-and-drink-stackable-and-why/p1
Edited by Pyatra on 6 February 2015 20:59
  • DeLindsay
    DeLindsay
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    Food will always supersede Drinks as long as Damage and Healing values are based off of our Magicka/Stamina pool. If ZoS changes that so all abilities stack solely off of Spell/Physical damage then Drinks would certainly be more viable.

    The best answer is what Players have already told ZoS since day 1, make them stack. There's no need to buff Drinks, just scale them like Food did and make them stack already, problem solved.
  • Gyudan
    Gyudan
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    A common scene at the Rosy Lion tavern:
    - Customer: I'll have a guar steak and a pitcher of mead please.
    - Waitress: Sorry, you cannot have both drink and food during the same meal.
    - C: But I really want both.
    - W: Nope.
    - C: :cry:


    Back to the numbers, based on OP's base figures, for Magicka:
    - Drink:94 magicka/sec during combat (187 outside)
    - Food: 3720 extra magicka

    It would take at least a 40 seconds fight for the drink to be theoretically better than food. If you add spell symmetry and the extra damage given by a bigger magicka pool, this will probably never happen.

    For health, I don't think anyone will ever use drinks in group situations, given how easy it is to get health back with all the extra heals received and how important the health pool is to survive big instant damage like Mantikora stomps and boss attacks.
    Wololo.
  • Ommamar
    Ommamar
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    I agree it would be natural to make food and drink stack, I mean when you eat a meal you also have something to drink.
    On the whole pass it on to ZoS thing. Do you really think that ZoS doesn't have the numbers on how buffs are effecting things? I guarantee they could easily take a much larger sample of number data then what you where able to do. I don't disagree with your premise that it needs to be changed but please don't act like ZoS doesn't have an understanding of how the game they designed is working. There are definitely some things in game I would have done differently but I respect that they where able to build this game from scratch.
  • stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO
    stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO
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    I respect that they where able to build this game from scratch.

    I look at it differently. It's their job, but they did a really botched job with it in places. There is a quote from Winnie the Pooh that comes to mind: "You can't help respecting anybody who can spell 'Tuesday', even if he doesn't spell it right."

    I don't respect the developers for doing their job badly. I can understand it, and I can tolerate it, and I have mostly been able to enjoy the game despite all the bugs and imbalances, but do I respect them for it? No.
  • Pyatra
    Pyatra
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    Gyudan wrote: »
    A common scene at the Rosy Lion tavern:
    - Customer: I'll have a guar steak and a pitcher of mead please.
    - Waitress: Sorry, you cannot have both drink and food during the same meal.
    - C: But I really want both.
    - W: Nope.
    - C: :cry:


    Back to the numbers, based on OP's base figures, for Magicka:
    - Drink:94 magicka/sec during combat (187 outside)
    - Food: 3720 extra magicka

    It would take at least a 40 seconds fight for the drink to be theoretically better than food. If you add spell symmetry and the extra damage given by a bigger magicka pool, this will probably never happen.

    For health, I don't think anyone will ever use drinks in group situations, given how easy it is to get health back with all the extra heals received and how important the health pool is to survive big instant damage like Mantikora stomps and boss attacks.

    Agreed, an excellent point about boss burst damage as another factor. Also bursty stealth death makes the same point valid in PVP.
  • FordPrefect
    FordPrefect
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    DeLindsay wrote: »
    Food will always supersede Drinks as long as Damage and Healing values are based off of our Magicka/Stamina pool. If ZoS changes that so all abilities stack solely off of Spell/Physical damage then Drinks would certainly be more viable.

    Here's a decent solution which would make a lot of sense also. Stop basing DAMAGE off of the POOL, but instead off DAMAGE values. otherwise, why even have the Spell/Physical damage stats in the game?
  • Dragath
    Dragath
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    Food and Drinks should stack.
  • XEVENEX
    XEVENEX
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    DeLindsay wrote: »
    Food will always supersede Drinks as long as Damage and Healing values are based off of our Magicka/Stamina pool. If ZoS changes that so all abilities stack solely off of Spell/Physical damage then Drinks would certainly be more viable.

    This. In fact, if max magicka/stamina had no effect on damage, regen would almost always be better because a bigger bucket does you no good if your bucket is only half full most of the time.

    Edited by XEVENEX on 30 January 2015 20:14
  • C0pp3rhead
    C0pp3rhead
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    This is an excellent post. As a fan of math & stuff, I appreciate the work you've put into this @Pyatra‌

    You hit the nail on the head:
    complicated math & rebalancing OR let 'em stack.
    "Things which are alike in nature grow to look alike, and the speaking stones have lain a long time lookin' at the sun. Some believe they descend with the lightning, but I believe they are on the ground and are projected downward by the bolt."

    Fear my moustache powers.

    Tastes-New-Blood - V14 Argonian Templar
    Giblets N Bits - V2 Imperial Nightblade
    Skruyue N'Alyutu - V1 Altmer Sorcerer
    Jolbie Firecrotch - L31 Nord Dragonknight

    Vehemence - - Valhalla's Guard
  • Maverick827
    Maverick827
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    It's comes down to one point, Zenimax: what are you trying to accomplish by not letting food and drinks stack?

    The assumption is that you're trying to have us make a choice. That is, essentially, the backbone of RPG character development. I have a limited number of options and I need to pick what I feel like is the best combination of those options. I need to pick which skills I put on my bar, I cannot use all of them.

    The problem is, obviously, when there isn't even a real choice at all. When one option is strictly better than the other. This is the case here. Food is and has always been strictly better than drinks.

    Does there need to be a choice? Will we be missing any meaningful gameplay if we don't have to pick between food and drinks?
  • snorlockb16_ESO
    snorlockb16_ESO
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    Food and drink stack, but the effects are lowered 10% if you use both at the same time. Then you have 3 choices.
  • Terminus
    Terminus
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    The math, the logic...
    It's so beautiful! So straightforward!
    Thank you for doing this out for us.
    2uf7cx4.gif
    Edited by Terminus on 30 January 2015 20:45
  • Domander
    Domander
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    DeLindsay wrote: »
    Food will always supersede Drinks as long as Damage and Healing values are based off of our Magicka/Stamina pool. If ZoS changes that so all abilities stack solely off of Spell/Physical damage then Drinks would certainly be more viable.

    Here's a decent solution which would make a lot of sense also. Stop basing DAMAGE off of the POOL, but instead off DAMAGE values. otherwise, why even have the Spell/Physical damage stats in the game?

    This would make someone who wants to use both stamina and magicka skills (ones that are increased by stat, hybrid/balanced) able to do so without being at such a disadvantage.
  • Pyatra
    Pyatra
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    Terminus wrote: »
    The math, the logic...
    It's so beautiful! So straightforward!
    Thank you for doing this out for us.
    2uf7cx4.gif

    I've never seen that gif before but I assure you, I will never forget it's awesomeness!
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