Templar vs Dragonknight self heals and sustain.

jocrougeb16_ESO · January 2015

So during beta and the rocky launch I played a tanky siphoning NB. The game didn't pan out well for me with the bugs and lag, I quit but have since returned.

Now that there is a lot more information out about the classes and I've had a chance to mess with builds i'm a little confused as to which class would suit my needs best.

I am looking for the class which can offer the best self-healing/sustain whilst equipped with a stamina like build wielding preferably 1H/S and a bow. So this is without using the resto staff and purely based on the class makeup.

Both seem fairly tanky with great passives, perhaps the DK just surpassing the Templar in this respect. I'm going to try for a heavy armor setup, especially with 1.6 around the corner. Perhaps using two light/med to plug any weaknesses. I aim for at least viable dps as a tank build, stacking the deck in my favor of winning an attrition war with opponents. I absolutely detest glass cannons and am not very fond of going for a LA/magicka build.

Primarily the build will focus on PvP 1v1 > 1vX.The bow is to be used mostly as a support weapon whilst giving me something to use at range in the odd zerg/keep situations. It should also help vs fleeing targets.

With all of this in mind i'd like to share with you a couple of build ideas for any comment and critic.

Templar; esohead.com/calculator/skills#moVXyg9Mk9m8bznQ8fXhg8fXG18bzvj8ffkr8b0p18injX8innG8frrK8ffqh8rrYR8LxRn8N7JrDm6LDG6LDT6MbMUf6MbMXv6MbMXO6MbMX28T7XLRMA6MrqAi6MrqAI6MrqAD6MrqAZ6crqLw8n7DLWQ6LWU6rWZ6MfwgO6MfwgU6Mfwg26Mfwe08y7GrR3b6LR3f8g7rLsXy6rsXx8P7ardYw8X7kzjs3S6Mjs3W6Mjs3X6Mjs3Y6zjs3Z6Mjs328zR7pcEwFP6zEwXB6cEwXC6cEwXD8zf7zzNbo8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7zzHQ3F8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zN7zzJZcY8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX

Dragonknight;
esohead.com/calculator/skills#mzVXyg9Mk9m8fXhg8fXG18uzEd8uEI18uELs8Gsda8injX8innG8rrYR8Gsdx8GRFv8LxRn8T7JLRMA6MrqAi6MrqAI6MrqAD6MrqAZ6crqLw8y7GrR3b6LR3f8g7HLsXy6rsXx6MipLW6MipL46MippV6Mippo6Mippq8E7DLzmY6MuciH6MuciS6Muci46Muchq8l7Drzky6Lzkg6MuvVB6MuvVD6MuvVJ6MuvVO8B7DLzRf6rzsa6rzsw6MGkXa6MGkXf6MGkXG6MGkXN8P7ardYw8X7kzjs3S6Mjs3W6Mjs3X6Mjs3Y6zjs3Z6Mjs328zR7pcEwFP6zEwXB6cEwXC6cEwXD8zf7zzNbo8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7zzHQ3F8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zN7zzJZcY8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX

I enjoy both the Templar and DK animations so it's very hard to make a decision based solely upon that.

Thanks for reading!

Soris · January 2015

I think Green Dragon Blood is better self heal because it scales off of your missing health. For example, if you have 3k health and you lost %90 of your health in a fight, your GDB gives you around 1k heal or more while Breath of Life scales off of magicka and since you are tank, it won't heal that much (600-700 max)
And DK's sustain, dmg and tankieness is faaar more better than templar in any ways.

Templar's overall best skill is Blazing Shield and it does tons of damage if you invest a lot of points into helath. And if you combine it with Devouring Swarm, you could be very deadly. But that is not enough alone. People are intelligent, they will try to stay away from you and kite you. Unfortunately you have nothing to keep them in place like talons or reflect all the ranged dmg back when they kite you. And you will desperately spam your shield and couple spears to stay alive and build some ultimate points. In the end you will go out of magicka and stamina too quickly.

Ps: Battle Roar. Check this from DK passive line.

ThatHappyCat · January 2015

ATM DKs are better than Templars as tanks, especially in PvP. In terms of self-healing a magicka Templar is definitely stronger (Rushed Ceremony can crit for up to 1.7k with Focused Healing), but a stamina Templar would fall behind DKs (although you can still be very tanky using stamina-based heals and Sun Shield).

jocrougeb16_ESO · January 2015

You make a very good point that I didn't even consider Faernaa. I wasn't thinking about templar heals scaling off magicka. GDB look's a lot more attractive now with your example, I guess it just needs good management to shine.

I agree with both of you there, on paper it looks as if DK's the tankier of the two with strong resource sustain. I thought that the Templar heals could push the survivability a lot more but I am going stam/health focused. As you pointed out they won't be great. Fair point about the shield, it's a fantastic ability but it can be played around.

I'll be running Igneous Shield anyway so with the bonus to heals i'm hoping that could be a strong combo. Not sure if it's worth while when the only heals appear to come from flame lash and burning embers if GBD only returns a percentage as well as Battle Roar. Both strong heals already though.

Thanks for your input guys and if anybody else has some, especially on the build that would be great.

JLB · January 2015

Templar heals are very mediocre on a tank build compared to GDB. As it's been said, count on a 600ish heal as a tank tops (counting the big heal of Breathe of Life targets you as the lowest Health), and at a very, very expensive magicka cost.
Regarding resource sustain and DPS, DK is simply better than Templar.
I guess that answers your question.
That being said, I'd wait until 1.6 patch notes since things might change a bit.

danno8 · January 2015

JLB wrote: »

Templar heals are very mediocre on a tank build compared to GDB. As it's been said, count on a 600ish heal as a tank tops (counting the big heal of Breathe of Life targets you as the lowest Health), and at a very, very expensive magicka cost.
Regarding resource sustain and DPS, DK is simply better than Templar.
I guess that answers your question.
That being said, I'd wait until 1.6 patch notes since things might change a bit.

If you choose HtD morph you get a lot of the cost back. Also at low health you get the extra 30% chance to crit from the passive.

But there is no doubt that there is a huge problem with the heal going to someone else, and DKs just have great ways of getting magicka, health and stamina back (battle roar). 1.6 may buff this even further as tanks will be able to get even more Ultimate generation than before in single target situations.

So yah DK's are simply the best overall tanks in the game. Have been since launch, even after tonnes of nerfs.

jocrougeb16_ESO · January 2015

I think the general consensus so far is definitely favoring DK for my build ideas. I've gone ahead and leveled mine, looking forward to trying things out. Especially after reading up on patch 1.6, sounds like heavy armor and stam builds could be in a good position so that's perfect for me.

Thank's for helping me clear things up, definitely learned things about both classes I didn't before and continuing to do so. I'll see you all in Cyrodiil!

Tarkit · January 2015

I play a templar as my main char and love tanking on it. That being said, DKs are naturally better tanks

Lynx7386 · January 2015

Even if all other stats and influences on the two characters were perfectly identical, the fact that DK's have talons would make them the clear cut better choice. I cant stress how useful talons is for tanking.

ThatHappyCat · January 2015

Also Chains. Being able to grab all the adds so your DPS can AoE away is really, really useful; and Chains can also be used as a ghetto taunt.

In terms of survivability DK and Templar tanks aren't all that different, really. But DKs also have great CC, while Templars are woefully lacking in the CC department.

Francescolg · January 2015

DKs are also the best fire mage of the game and therefore offer much more diversifity and entertainment, given that you can play them in so many ways.

Templars only 'outshine' as healer or tank/hybrid healer/melee DD in PvE/PvP, whereas Templars as DD/caster are really underperforming: no real group-CC, no real magicka-sustain and, last not least, not one class skill that synergizes with the destro staff as the DK has (+X% fire damage i.g.). Nonetheless you'll a see some templars running around with fire/etc-staff and thinking that their damage really kicks a.., so let them think so, to believe in sth. is important to explain your monthly game fee :disagree:

I'll not go further into detail given a lack of interest and time to rediscuss all those details, sorry

Just check the forums - do a lot of reading and then handpick your choice!

Chrlynsch · January 2015

My templar tank is highly effective in pvp and easily changes the course of any battle large or small that he is in. I've done tanky dk and I've done tanky templar. .. I overall like my templar for this style of gameplay. I run my templar with pact sword & shield, warlock jewelry 1 fire resist 2 stam cost reduction, 2 warlock gear, and 5 akaviri set. Off hand is master destruction staff

I'm am at 3600 hp 1800 stam and 2400 magica

imperial vampire.

Bar one: blazing shield, blinding flashes, defensive stance, repentance, immovable or mage light. Devouring swarm

Bar two: destructive touch, breath of life, biting jabs, eclipse, dark flare. Nova

Great stuff!

dietlime · January 2015

faernaa wrote: »

I think Green Dragon Blood is better self heal because it scales off of your missing health. For example, if you have 3k health and you lost %90 of your health in a fight, your GDB gives you around 1k heal or more while Breath of Life scales off of magicka and since you are tank, it won't heal that much (600-700 max)
And DK's sustain, dmg and tankieness is faaar more better than templar in any ways.

Templar's overall best skill is Blazing Shield and it does tons of damage if you invest a lot of points into helath. And if you combine it with Devouring Swarm, you could be very deadly. But that is not enough alone. People are intelligent, they will try to stay away from you and kite you. Unfortunately you have nothing to keep them in place like talons or reflect all the ranged dmg back when they kite you. And you will desperately spam your shield and couple spears to stay alive and build some ultimate points. In the end you will go out of magicka and stamina too quickly.

Ps: Battle Roar. Check this from DK passive line.

Don't forget about Blazing Shield. Templar has a percentage based "heal" that can be used preemptively.

If you want to play a self-healer you can't go better than Templar.

Soris · January 2015

I mentioned about Blazing shield in my post if you read it. And what you mean percentage based heals?

Templar heals calculated on your max magic and spell power as i said in my post. It's only good if you play magicka build, but your dps will suck in magicka builds other than stamina builds which are superior for templars. So its a trade-off.
And also your heals can be easily stealed by someone else if you are in crowded place. Most of the time, you will die because of this or you have to waste x2, x3 magicka for it.

Templars are just perfect group healers, Their self sustain can be very problematic in many cases

ThatHappyCat · January 2015

He put heal in quotes because he's talking about Blazing Shield, which while not a heal is a survivability skill not dependent on magicka, like Dragon Blood.

I never have problems with self-sustain (i.e. people stealing my heals when I need it) as a Templar. If I'm taking that much damage I need a heal right this instant that usually means I'm being focused, in which case it's highly unlikely anyone else will steal the main BoL heal; and even if they do I'd always get the very potent (with spell power investment) side heal.

Asgari · January 2015

I think Templars and DKs are even. It just comes down to who is playing the build tbh.

Sukenlihol · January 2015

(Usually) Dragonknight > Templar.

(For skilled players) Templar > Dragonknight.

Joy_Division · January 2015

faernaa wrote: »

I mentioned about Blazing shield in my post if you read it. And what you mean percentage based heals?

Templar heals calculated on your max magic and spell power as i said in my post. It's only good if you play magicka build, but your dps will suck in magicka builds other than stamina builds which are superior for templars. So its a trade-off.
And also your heals can be easily stealed by someone else if you are in crowded place. Most of the time, you will die because of this or you have to waste x2, x3 magicka for it.

Templars are just perfect group healers, Their self sustain can be very problematic in many cases

Most of the time you do not die because someone else "steals" you heals. With Dragon Blood you have to wait until you are almost dead to get a decent heal. That's a huge risk. A templar uses Breath of Life who is in dire need will be the target of the spell.

Even if you are in a zerg situation and you spam BoL over and over and other people are "stealing" your heals...you still are contributing - very well I might add - to your group's survivability and effectiveness as the heal thieves are staying alive.

bosmern_ESO · January 2015

In no way, can a DK beat a templar in self heals. If you pair up Honor the Dead and restoring Focus a templar can pretty much never die. Not many people use restoring focus because they think its not good, but in reality, for solo play its amazing.

It grants 15% additional healing and gives the templar 1360 spell resistance and armor. When a templar gets below 50% health and use honor the dead, they get their magicka back and heal for more than half their health, even more if it crits which it has a very high chance of, then add an additional 15% to that.

Soris · January 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

faernaa wrote: »

I mentioned about Blazing shield in my post if you read it. And what you mean percentage based heals?

Templar heals calculated on your max magic and spell power as i said in my post. It's only good if you play magicka build, but your dps will suck in magicka builds other than stamina builds which are superior for templars. So its a trade-off.
And also your heals can be easily stealed by someone else if you are in crowded place. Most of the time, you will die because of this or you have to waste x2, x3 magicka for it.

Templars are just perfect group healers, Their self sustain can be very problematic in many cases

Most of the time you do not die because someone else "steals" you heals. With Dragon Blood you have to wait until you are almost dead to get a decent heal. That's a huge risk. A templar uses Breath of Life who is in dire need will be the target of the spell.

Even if you are in a zerg situation and you spam BoL over and over and other people are "stealing" your heals...you still are contributing - very well I might add - to your group's survivability and effectiveness as the heal thieves are staying alive.

Well... Play styles differs from player to player. I'm a solo player and I don't play with a magicka build. My magicka is limited and my heals are precious. And if I in need of healing, I wouldn't want people steal my heals.

There should be a self heal option/morph for that spell. Well the other morph is actually supposed to be a self heal but it's just even worse than BoL in actual pvp.

Totomushen wrote: »

(Usually) Dragonknight > Templar.

(For skilled players) Templar > Dragonknight.

In 1v1 duel, Templar have upper hand almost every time unless he/she is vampire or newbie

Soris · January 2015

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

In no way, can a DK beat a templar in self heals. If you pair up Honor the Dead and restoring Focus a templar can pretty much never die. Not many people use restoring focus because they think its not good, but in reality, for solo play its amazing.

It grants 15% additional healing and gives the templar 1360 spell resistance and armor. When a templar gets below 50% health and use honor the dead, they get their magicka back and heal for more than half their health, even more if it crits which it has a very high chance of, then add an additional 15% to that.

^^ So cute and pure. Try doing this in a fight that involves more than 2 people on your side that taking damage in same time

PhatGrimReaper · January 2015

I've played as a Tank with both Templar and DK......

Cinder Storm + Igneous Shield + Standard of Might/Magma Shell, with Mountains Blessing & Battle Roar & Helping Hands Passives = Live Forever.... well, not quite for ever, but..... you get the idea.... I'm even mentioning the rest of the DKs defensive passives.
Cinder Storm means you get hit less, it generates Ultimate with DoT and Mountains blessing....
Igneous Shield gives you a life shield and extra healing(GDB heals for more) + it's an Earthen Heart skill so Mountains Blessing adds Ult.
Every time you activate an EH ability Helping Hand passive gives you 5% of your total stam back, so more blocking.
When you do get into trouble... whether it be low health, magicka, stam or the whole lot... pop your ult and regain a boatload of resources.

In short,
good self-heal
+ tonnes of mitigation
+ killer resource management
= Massive Sustain!!

DK Wins this one IMO!!!

iseko · January 2015

I think in terms of raw tanking power: DK all the way. But when they are die hard tanks they don't really do all that much damage.

In terms of being able to tank large groups and still put out a decent amount of dps. Templar. BUT, much harder to do. You will need to manage your resources. Often in a prolonged fight I am at 1/2 to 1/3 of all my resources. But, i'm usually also keeping other people alife in the process. Blazing spear to give some stamina and stun the person hitting my ally, BoL to heal, etc... While still pushing out a fair amount of DPS in the meantime with puncturing sweep and blazing shield.

I will tell you one thing: empowering sweep is awesome. So is nova and rite of passage. Hardest thing for me as temp is to choose which ultimate I am slotting.

Templars can be very versatile but a pain in the ass to learn how to play with. Just my two cents.

EDIT: tripots are your friend

Kupoking · January 2015

I play both classes as tanks. In terms of self sustain, I have a heck of a hard time surviving by myself in the last stage of vet dsa in split phase with the templar due to the cost vs effectiveness of breath of live. Spamming blazing shield is much more cost effective.

However, in the serpent ophidia trial, i managed to tank the serpents image with 2 dps and no heals with well timed blazing shield and pots rotation. Plus I can eat a few serpent cleaves during the fight without dieing thx to the 1000+dmg shield.

Dragath · January 2015

i have to admit, i am more curious about what will change with 1.6, then what is true atm.
balance could change quite a lot.