Stamina doesn't need any more buffs!

GreyBrow · November 2014

Stamina needs no further buffing.

Just to prove it, I took my sorc, threw on 4 hundings rage 4 twilight, grabbed a bow and dual wield, and pulled 1.2k dps (without evil hunter or wep power pots) consistently within the first 10 minutes of using stamina, doing heavy bow, venom arrow, light dual wield, and then light attack/flurry weaving.

That's MORE DPS than my sorc gets using ONLY his crushing shock rotation.

Dual Wield is level 30, Bow is level 18, Medium Armor is level 34.

The issue isn't about stam builds or skills or anything else.

Sustainability? Yeah magicka users have that same problem... you know how they solve it? Potions and Spell symmetry.

OH, no spell symmetry? oh god what can you do? Wait... what's that? Spell symmetry is basically a mechanic that is used to drain the healer's magicka and give it to the DPS?

Damn... if only templars had a similar mechanic that they could use on stamina users....

OH WAIT. SHARDS!

Shards restores a TON of stamina, and it doesn't even tap your health for you to use it! wow! imagine that! and since picking up shards has no cast time, its NOT A DPS LOSS

The disparity between stamina and magicka isn't in the game code, its because of the user. Apparently, the average stamina user knows nothing about light attack weaving or animation canceling, so they come here to the forums and complain all day and night until they get buffed through the roof.

Maybe i'll throw on 5 piece warlock with magicka recovery enchants and 5 piece seducer and come here and complain that my destro staff dps sorc is only getting 600 dps, and get all my buddies to complain as well and beg for buffs.

Moderator edit: Adjusted title and post per our rules on baiting.

guybrushtb16_ESO · November 2014

GreyBrow wrote: »

The disparity between stamina and magicka isn't in the game code, its because of the user. Apparently, the average stamina user knows nothing about light attack weaving or animation canceling, so they come here to the forums and complain all day and night until they get buffed through the roof.

*yawn*. 2/10, wouldn't read again.

Also, I think I'll head over to the PTS forum and QQ some about stamina builds just to annoy you.

For what it's worth, stamina builds needed severe dps buffs to even be considered viable. Magicka builds in general are still ahead in pvp due to numerous shortcomings inherent in the game's design, but that whole discussion apparently eluded you completely, maybe people didn't write enough letters in bold for your convenience.

Moderator edit: Adjusted quote to match moderated content.

tino.antoninieb17_ESO · November 2014

GreyBrow wrote: »

Stamina needs no further buffing.

Just to prove it, I took my sorc, threw on 4 hundings rage 4 twilight, grabbed a bow and dual wield, and pulled 1.2k dps (without evil hunter or wep power pots) consistently within the first 10 minutes of using stamina, doing heavy bow, venom arrow, light dual wield, and then light attack/flurry weaving.

That's MORE DPS than my sorc gets using ONLY his crushing shock rotation.

Dual Wield is level 30, Bow is level 18, Medium Armor is level 34.

The issue isn't about stam builds or skills or anything else, its about complaining.

Sustainability? Yeah magicka users have that same problem... you know how they solve it? Potions and Spell symmetry.

OH, no spell symmetry? oh god what can you do? Wait... what's that? Spell symmetry is basically a mechanic that is used to drain the healer's magicka and give it to the DPS?

Damn... if only templars had a similar mechanic that they could use on stamina users....

OH WAIT. SHARDS!

Shards restores a TON of stamina, and it doesn't even tap your health for you to use it! wow! imagine that! and since picking up shards has no cast time, its NOT A DPS LOSS

The disparity between stamina and magicka isn't in the game code, its because of the user. Apparently, the average stamina user knows nothing about light attack weaving or animation canceling, so they come here to the forums and complaining all day and night until they get buffed through the roof.

Maybe i'll throw on 5 piece warlock with magicka recovery enchants and 5 piece seducer and come here and QQ that my destro staff dps sorc is only getting 600 dps, and get all my buddies to QQ as well and beg for buffs.

I think u should take anger management course. Since u have being too expressive i didnt get point - are u saying that stamina builds make higher output than magic builds or that stamina builds are close enough ? Just for purpose of reality check read forums about subject ( read threads just made by magic users) and come back again. If more than 90% of people has different take on subject than u have to reconsider your position. One more thing yelling and insulting will not make u right - although people in your classroom may like you better.
Just to address topic - at least 10% gap is still there .

Moderator edit: Adjusted quote to match moderated content.

capcody · November 2014

stam users have to put up with block doge/roll. no stam regain mundus stone and lack of stam recovery sets.. whould love to have 1 similar to the warlocks set. if u ask me. stam users needs to get buffed a bit,

Kronuxx · November 2014

GreyBrow wrote: »

Stamina needs no further buffing.

Just to prove it, I took my sorc, threw on 4 hundings rage 4 twilight, grabbed a bow and dual wield, and pulled 1.2k dps (without evil hunter or wep power pots) consistently within the first 10 minutes of using stamina, doing heavy bow, venom arrow, light dual wield, and then light attack/flurry weaving.

That's MORE DPS than my sorc gets using ONLY his crushing shock rotation.

Dual Wield is level 30, Bow is level 18, Medium Armor is level 34.

The issue isn't about stam builds or skills or anything else.

Sustainability? Yeah magicka users have that same problem... you know how they solve it? Potions and Spell symmetry.

OH, no spell symmetry? oh god what can you do? Wait... what's that? Spell symmetry is basically a mechanic that is used to drain the healer's magicka and give it to the DPS?

Damn... if only templars had a similar mechanic that they could use on stamina users....

OH WAIT. SHARDS!

Shards restores a TON of stamina, and it doesn't even tap your health for you to use it! wow! imagine that! and since picking up shards has no cast time, its NOT A DPS LOSS

The disparity between stamina and magicka isn't in the game code, its because of the user. Apparently, the average stamina user knows nothing about light attack weaving or animation canceling, so they come here to the forums and complain all day and night until they get buffed through the roof.

Maybe i'll throw on 5 piece warlock with magicka recovery enchants and 5 piece seducer and come here and complain that my destro staff dps sorc is only getting 600 dps, and get all my buddies to complain as well and beg for buffs.

Go look up the formulas for every class skill (even melee range class skills) and you will see base damage is dependent on magicka, only a few of them have melee crit as part the damage calculation. And that's MELEE CRIT, not stamina that affects it...so yeah, stamina builds still need a buff.

Moderator edit: Adjusted quote to match moderated content and edited post to per our rules on insulting comment.

GreyBrow · November 2014

All that QQ. Man.

You know the thing about magicka skills and all the other stuff you complain stam users don't have?

Guess what?

You still have access to that crap. Shield stacking/healing/reflect/etc.

Just because you're stam doesn't mean you can't still shield stack and do all the other nifty things magicka users do. In fact, you'll be able to do them MORE than magicka users because you're not using your main resource to attack! Wow! Imagine that! Just like magicka users can roll dodge and block.

Oh, and by the way... Magicka users can only roll dodge 3 times before they're completely OOS. stam users can do it about 10-12 times.

And if you were intelligent enough to realize it, or good enough at PvP, you'd realize that once you're OOS you're dead. More stam = fewer deaths. That, in addition to the HUGE crit and 50% more armor while using a stamina build is pretty good balance. You just don't realize how OP you already are because stamina builds are uncommon, not underpowered.

Go throw on medium armor and use the dodge skill vs a now sniper and you'll start to understand why stamina isn't UP at all.

Stamina builds have great defense against stam builds, and are OP vs magicka builds.

All I hear is "please buff me because I'm not invincible yet"

Luvsfuzzybunnies · November 2014

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

GreyBrow wrote: »

The disparity between stamina and magicka isn't in the game code, its because of the user. Apparently, the average stamina user is an idiot and knows nothing about light attack weaving or animation canceling, so they come here to the forums and QQQQQ all day and night until they get buffed through the roof.

seriously, l2p already.

*yawn*. 2/10, wouldn't read again.

Also, I think I'll head over to the PTS forum and QQ some about stamina builds just to annoy you.

For what it's worth, stamina builds needed severe dps buffs to even be considered viable. Magicka builds in general are still ahead in pvp due to numerous shortcomings inherent in the game's design, but that whole discussion apparently eluded you completely, maybe people didn't write enough letters in bold for your convenience.

I couldn't stop laughing good show.

Sotha_Sil · November 2014

FYI spell symetry = anyone can have it and use it for themselves - Shards : only templars can throw it and they can't even use it themselves (as it is a synergy) so???? YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID ?

Shards could be compared to the 5th skill of the undaunted skill line for example. But it's completely different.

Luvsfuzzybunnies · November 2014

Using a snipe plus an auto attack does not sustained damage make. You need a reasonably long parse time otherwise it's moot. You never give actual specif is of your testing just say I did this see take my word for it. Maybe provide some evidence and give better explanation otherwise you'll continually get what you see in your ill informed post.

bosmern_ESO · November 2014

Stamina isn't as good of a utility as magicka is at the moment. Sure you can get more dps using stamina but people will prefer having magicka builds running trials with them.

Not only that you only talked about PvE, try PvP with your bow and duels and see how well it is, you break CC twice and you can only light attack.

Cody · November 2014

could not eve read your entire post. could not take it seriously....

stamina DOES need further buffs........ you cant play PvP and say that it needs no buffs.... that is complete nonsense

ryanmjmcevoy_ESO · November 2014

What exactly did you pull this 1.2k dps on, cuz I'm not buying it atm

GreyBrow · November 2014

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Using a snipe plus an auto attack does not sustained damage make. You need a reasonably long parse time otherwise it's moot. You never give actual specif is of your testing just say I did this see take my word for it. Maybe provide some evidence and give better explanation otherwise you'll continually get what you see in your ill informed post.

I know multiple people who pull 1.1k on the mage and warrior. Most staff users cant even manage that.

Pics incoming after tonight's raid.

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Stamina isn't as good of a utility as magicka is at the moment. Sure you can get more dps using stamina but people will prefer having magicka builds running trials with them.

Not only that you only talked about PvE, try PvP with your bow and duels and see how well it is, you break CC twice and you can only light attack.

First of all, this is entirely not true. If you have 2.4k Stam, and decent recovery, you should be able to cc-break all day long. Secondly, If you're getting cc'd that much you have serious l2p issues, because you're obviously not blocking when you should be. blocking = prevents cc. Yet another case of l2p.

What do you think magicka users run into while dueling? They cc break twice and when the next stun comes, they have to sit there the ENTIRE stun duration. Stam > magicka in this instance.

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

FYI spell symetry = anyone can have it and use it for themselves - Shards : only templars can throw it and they can't even use it themselves (as it is a synergy) so???? YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID ?

Shards could be compared to the 5th skill of the undaunted skill line for example. But it's completely different.

LOLOLOL. Seriously dude? End game trials use templar healers? so does every half-decent pvp guild. Yet another case of l2p.

They run restoring aura (80% increased stam regen) and shards, and you have way more stamina than you can even try to use. Seriously, with even one decent templar (even a dps templar) in your group, your stamina is continually at 100%, even without 5 piece ophidian or other reduced stam cost gear or stam recovery enchants. You can even use heavy attacks every once in a while.

Voodoo · November 2014

Why dont you stay stamina build then?

Cody · November 2014

let me tell you EXACTLY why stamina is inferior to magicka.

stamina is used for: blocking, rolling, crouch moving, sprinting, CC breaking... and whatever else I may have forgot to list.

magicka is used for... magicka abilities.

see the problem? someone using all magicka abitities wont have to sacrifice as much, because they will only have to use stamina for rolling/blocking.

someone using stamina abilities has to use stamina for those abilities, PLUS the other things that need stamina

This is NOT balanced. not in the slightest. It's why people have been asking for a 4th bar to be solely FOR things like blocking, dodging, and whatever else applies.

Saying stamina builds are fine and/or balanced atm only shows that:

A. you have not played the game to the point you have seen the inbalance.

OR

B. you are(hate to say it) possibly trolling.

hopefully its A.:/

Saet · November 2014

This post makes me laugh. Thanks OP.
Try doing this in PVP while not running in a zerg.

Valen_Byte · November 2014

Hmmm...stop QQing anbout QQing...and stop saying QQ...its dumb

Solanum · November 2014

This guy is either trolling, or really clueless.
Regardless, it gave me a good laugh.

If I focus on casting, I can absolutely rock. The stamina will still be a nice addition without me having to invest anything. I can still dodge roll, block, break out of CC. Meanwhile, I can invest in my magicka efficiency trough armor, glyphs, food and potions. This will make my magicka abilities powerful, but also cheap to use.

If I go for a stamina heavy build, I'm using the same pool for my damage and attacks as I need for dodging, breaking CC, and blocking. This means that by blocking, rolling or dodging, I'm effectively gimping my damage output severely. Sure I can add magicka skills to my bar, but with the exception of a few they'll be rather weak. Stacking shields on a stamina build is laughable.

ZOS_TristanK · November 2014

Hi, folks. We wanted to pop in and let you know that we've adjusted the original post as well as several others to be more in line with our forum Code of Conduct. While we are glad to have you all discuss the discussion of stamina builds further, we are going to sink this thread to avoid the discussion getting more heated or getting derailed. Thank you for your understanding.

trimsic_ESO · November 2014

@GreyBrow‌
Nice troll. I laughed so much.

- The bow received a buff, and this was clearly not the priority
- The 2H received a buff, and this was awaited.
- The DW did not receive a buff, and this is clearly missing.
- The 1H&S received a buff, and this is quite appreciated.

Still, the game mechanics allow people to block continuously while casting spells, and people abuse it especially in Cyrodiil. This is just overpowered; please fix it.

As a stamina player,
- I can't regenerate my ultimate points as fast as a magicka player.
- The efficiency of my class skills do not scale with my stamina pool.
- The efficiency of most of my ultimate skills do not scale with my stamina pool
- And, contrary to the magicka builds, I have to choose between dealing damage and blocking, dodging, or breaking.

The duration time in Werewolf form is way too short. When I turn back to my human form, the pool of ultimate points is reset so I cannot transform again into a Werewolf.

In comparison, a vampire can:
- Activate bat swarm
- Deal a huge amount of damage with bat swarm without being targetted
- Deal a huge amount of damage with pulsar while using bat swarm
- Block while using bat swarm
- And, activate bat swarm again while using bat swarm

Come on... At least all the ultimate skills should have the same behavior: at the end of the effect, the pool of ultimate points should be reset.

It's now 7 months that we would like to be as competitive as magicka builds, and I'm afraid we will have to wait, again...

guybrushtb16_ESO · November 2014

GreyBrow wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Using a snipe plus an auto attack does not sustained damage make. You need a reasonably long parse time otherwise it's moot. You never give actual specif is of your testing just say I did this see take my word for it. Maybe provide some evidence and give better explanation otherwise you'll continually get what you see in your ill informed post.

I know multiple people who pull 1.1k on the mage and warrior. Most staff users cant even manage that.

Pics incoming after tonight's raid.

So what you are saying is that the best of the stamina users can beat the average magicka users. That is absoluely how it should be and it actually doesn't say anything about the balance between the two at all. There is no argument in what you wrote there, you should probably try to make another point.

GreyBrow wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Stamina isn't as good of a utility as magicka is at the moment. Sure you can get more dps using stamina but people will prefer having magicka builds running trials with them.

Not only that you only talked about PvE, try PvP with your bow and duels and see how well it is, you break CC twice and you can only light attack.

First of all, this is entirely not true. If you have 2.4k Stam, and decent recovery, you should be able to cc-break all day long. Secondly, If you're getting cc'd that much you have serious l2p issues, because you're obviously not blocking when you should be. blocking = prevents cc. Yet another case of l2p.

What do you think magicka users run into while dueling? They cc break twice and when the next stun comes, they have to sit there the ENTIRE stun duration. Stam > magicka in this instance.

Again you fail to acknowledge the problems that result from a shared pool for offensive and defensive actions. Stamina and magicka are both capped at the same regeneration rate and both use about the same amount of resources per cast. The difference between the two is that magicka builds get to regenerate the resources used for dodging at a 100% base rate becasue it's a different resource altogether. There is no "making up" for the resources invested into dodging at this point.

Your "l2p and block" comment is not only inappropriately condescending, it is also entirely unfounded. Contrary to magicka builds, all stamina builds now have channeled abilities as their spammable attacks, which ironially means that magicka builds are better at blocking.

GreyBrow wrote: »

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

FYI spell symetry = anyone can have it and use it for themselves - Shards : only templars can throw it and they can't even use it themselves (as it is a synergy) so???? YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID ?

Shards could be compared to the 5th skill of the undaunted skill line for example. But it's completely different.

LOLOLOL. Seriously dude? End game trials use templar healers? so does every half-decent pvp guild. Yet another case of l2p.

They run restoring aura (80% increased stam regen) and shards, and you have way more stamina than you can even try to use. Seriously, with even one decent templar (even a dps templar) in your group, your stamina is continually at 100%, even without 5 piece ophidian or other reduced stam cost gear or stam recovery enchants. You can even use heavy attacks every once in a while.

It seems you are misunderstanding how restoring aura works. 80% increased regeneration only comes down to 40% after softcap and it doesn't multiply other percentage based boni as well. What it comes down to is maybe a ~20% effective increase in regeneration, assuming your healer really bothers to recast every 6s which most don't bother with because combat prayer has higher priority and works for everyone. I at least have never really seen it being used.

Francescolg · November 2014

GreyBrow wrote: »

They run restoring aura (80% increased stam regen) and shards, and you have way more stamina than you can even try to use. Seriously, with even one decent templar (even a dps templar) in your group, your stamina is continually at 100%

I'd say the TE is right!! In fact, since the end of July, bow damage has risen to a not acceptable damage from stealth, as well as from max distance and - as if it wasn't enough - morphed with an OP heal debuff (+ widest range, +highest ranged burst DD). All together is not acceptable and compared to many other DD-skills (with similar range) it is quite and simply UNFAIR! (combined with sta-goodies, weapon power, etc.)

Players, especially the stamina skill users, have been very quite concerning snipe's damage potential since than. Nonetheless everybody and their grandma hiddenly started using bows to an extent that now - last not least - they admitted that bow damage is way too high and they put in a tiny little 5% dmg nurf into a patch, just to calm down "casters", which traditionally do much higher ranged damage.. Such a pitty!

TE is 100% right. A (skillful) templar uses the 80% stamina-buff. Some do not, they go for Repentence. Nonetheless, you should always have two templars combining this two skills.
Most players do not run at max-stamina regen values/points, therefore, the point made that it stamina reggen is just 20% because of cap is somethat wrong.
Most players greatly profit from the 80% stamina reggen buff.

Despite that - and what is most revealing - there are much more skills/abilities which increase stamina (or help regen) than magicka (dragon blood, templar 7 sec buff, etc etc.). That is why they should introduce more skills for Magicka regen. In the right group setup, especially in pvp, stamina reggen is at cap at least 50% of the time, you can sprint infinitely or just hold your Immovable up forever and that - thanks to the templar!

They shouldn't buff stamina that much leaving in the game all those nice possibilities to reggen stamina, while not offering the same amount for magicka-reggen abilities/passives. This is no deep-data analyzing, I just feel that "stamina reggen" (or the possibilities to do so) is 10x times more effective, at least for a templar and a DK!

Vizier · November 2014

@ OP U Mad Bro?

Stam is used for so much more than Magika. It has to be buffed. Either overall pool or regen. ESPECIALLY if you actually invest skill points into it. THAT is were the greatest benefit should come from IMO.

Sypherioth · November 2014

Let me guess you had critical surge on?

Sypherioth · November 2014

GreyBrow wrote: »

All that QQ. Man.

You know the thing about magicka skills and all the other stuff you complain stam users don't have?

Guess what?

You still have access to that crap. Shield stacking/healing/reflect/etc.

Just because you're stam doesn't mean you can't still shield stack and do all the other nifty things magicka users do. In fact, you'll be able to do them MORE than magicka users because you're not using your main resource to attack! Wow! Imagine that! Just like magicka users can roll dodge and block.

Oh, and by the way... Magicka users can only roll dodge 3 times before they're completely OOS. stam users can do it about 10-12 times.

And if you were intelligent enough to...

...All I hear is "please buff me because I'm not invincible yet"

You made me laugh realy hard. You think Stamina users only need their stamina for dodge rolling??

I think you forget that stamina users are using their stamina for dps? otherwise there wouldnt be a point in using stamina now is it?