Please stop asking for the Nightblade to be a "rogue class"

Marthenil · September 2014

It's literally the root of our woes. Look at all those nice passives synergizing with stealth. Except, you know, the fact that stealth is such a niche, we end up being gimbed.
Sure, you get what you want, we turn into an awesome backstabbing rogue that oneshots people. Guess what, that DK that can tank 20 people is still going to be more useful.
Stop trying to force us into a niche. ZOS started it, but the way it is, and with what people are asking, we are going to end up being more useless.

The reason other classes are "better" at anything other than DPS is because of a little thing called versatility, something we completely lack. Why we lack it? You guessed it, stealth.

The goal should be for the nightblades to be able to be rogues, as well as any sorc, DK, or Templar. Not to only "be a rogue".

Kego · September 2014

Huh?
NBs can be good Mages and Healer in PvP as well. The Tanky Nightblade is more weaker compared to DKs, cause we lack survival and AOE CC Tools in our class lines.

I would even say we are the strongest Pulsar Spammer in this game, cause we are able to buff our WeaponDMG about 99% if our Power Extraction hit 9 targets.
Outside AOE are more good working Mage Builds, be it around Funnel Health + Crippling Grasp or Crushing Shock + Crippling Grasp.

Marthenil · September 2014

Kego wrote: »

Huh?
NBs can be good Mages and Healer in PvP as well. The Tanky Nightblade is more weaker compared to DKs, cause we lack survival and AOE CC Tools in our class lines.

I would even say we are the strongest Pulsar Spammer in this game, cause we are able to buff our WeaponDMG about 99% if our Power Extraction hit 9 targets.
Outside AOE are more good working Mage Builds, be it around Funnel Health + Crippling Grasp or Crushing Shock + Crippling Grasp.

Yeah, but people want even more focus on "stealth". Where will this lead?
As of now, we have some strong passives but the majority are weaker compared to other classes, only synergizing with stealth, which as I have already said is a very small niche.

Tigeracer · September 2014

I just want our stealth to work properly. In terms of versatility, I think NB has it the best, since we are the only build that can solo everything. I have been able to solo everything that doesn't require a multiple player mechanic (such as 4 people standing on a pad) and I only have green heavy armour! (Because I'm too poor to upgrade my gear every time I level up / VR 13 now).

Marthenil · September 2014

Tigeracer wrote: »

I just want our stealth to work properly. In terms of versatility, I think NB has it the best, since we are the only build that can solo everything. I have been able to solo everything that doesn't require a multiple player mechanic (such as 4 people standing on a pad) and I only have green heavy armour! (Because I'm too poor to upgrade my gear every time I level up / VR 13 now).

That's not what I mean by versatility.

Take a look at Templar and DK skills. They are not focused on one specific sub-role.
They are more general. Whereas, NB skills and passives *mostly* synergize with only one very specific thing: Stealth.
Stealth, is a niche. A niche that can be fulfilled by anyone in the game. Where does that place us?

Kego · September 2014

That is not true at all.
We have two Passives that favors Stealth.

Assassins Tree: Master Assassin
Shadow Tree: Shadow Barrier

The other 10 Passives benefits every playstyle.

Active Ablilities are the same of, Assassins focus mostly at Utility, Shadow favours Melee and Siphoning is mostly Ranged.

From all Skills. Veiled Strike and Cloak are the only active Skills that are "stealthy".

Venriz · September 2014

i had a dream wher i was able to play melle without cloak on bar

guybrushtb16_ESO · September 2014

Marthenil wrote: »

That's not what I mean by versatility.

Take a look at Templar and DK skills. They are not focused on one specific sub-role.
They are more general. Whereas, NB skills and passives *mostly* synergize with only one very specific thing: Stealth.
Stealth, is a niche. A niche that can be fulfilled by anyone in the game. Where does that place us?

Again, *mostly* is not true at all. No matter how often it is repeated, people just see what they want to see.

Looking at the NB skill tree, 2 out of 12 passives and 2 out of 15 actives are stealth related. With the same reasoning you could call sorc a tank class.

Marthenil · September 2014

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Marthenil wrote: »

That's not what I mean by versatility.

Take a look at Templar and DK skills. They are not focused on one specific sub-role.
They are more general. Whereas, NB skills and passives *mostly* synergize with only one very specific thing: Stealth.
Stealth, is a niche. A niche that can be fulfilled by anyone in the game. Where does that place us?

Again, *mostly* is not true at all. No matter how often it is repeated, people just see what they want to see.

Looking at the NB skill tree, 2 out of 12 passives and 2 out of 15 actives are stealth related. With the same reasoning you could call sorc a tank class.

Take a look at the DK skills, and what they synergize with. Burning and Roots immediately spring to mind.
Something they can constantly reproduce.

Take a look at the NB skills and what they synergize with. Yep, right, stealth, which bar the initial attack is not something you can reproduce

EDIT: disengaging doesn't really count :P

Khivas_Carrick · September 2014

1) I have seen Sorcs that are tanks, pretty good ones too.

2) I am a Templar Melee DPS, surprisingly effective too (600-800 DPS in blues with a yellow weapon. Not perfect for hard modes but normals get it in just fine, especially since I can heal too)

3) Templar's and NB's still need buffs, I will openly admit to that because we fall pretty short of our other two counterparts for both DPS, Healing, and Tanking in one way, shape, or form.

4) I say that only because I love encouraging hard content, but I feel as if a nerf to DKs and Sorcs would be just plain unfair and a sort of sick revenge, and much rather see NB's and Templar's buffed up instead.

5) Sorcs are really only OP in PvP with that thrice damned Bolt Streak ***, but DK's.....DK's are the real big OP flavor of the month man, there's literally nothing they can't do class wise other than heal lol Templar's still got that baby XD But seriously, DK's are just about OP, but when you add in Light Armor and Staffs? Forget about it.

*EDIT Just wanted to say this, I think Ima preach this every thread I go to that's about classes and imbalances of some sort, just to remind ZoS and others what's really busted in this game and what needs some serious freaking love because this game has/had potential but they're letting it die violently.

khele23eb17_ESO · September 2014

You read the class description on the character creation screen, you looked at the class skill lines. You werent hoping for a rogue-type character when deciding to play the class with that knowledge? I sure was.

Just to note - a rogue type class doesn not necessarily need to be a 1-shot assassin. It can be a highly mobile damage dealer, popping in and out of stealth and using cc as a form of defense.

starlizard70ub17_ESO · September 2014

I know it's still a ways off, but when The Thieves guild and Assassins guild come out, NBs are going to have their day in the sun, ... err shadows as it may be.

Rune_Relic · September 2014

So a sorc shouldnt actually be a sorc and can be heavy armour 2h tank flying in to battle ?

lol

I kind of know what you are saying. I think you mean the classes should be skill independant (be fighter/assassin/thief/mage with any class). Unfortunately the class skill are aimed at pidgeon holing said classes. IMHO

To me it appears...
Mage guild = sorc
Fighters guild = temp DK
Assassin/thief guild = NB

khele23eb17_ESO · September 2014

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

I know it's still a ways off, but when The Thieves guild and Assassins guild come out, NBs are going to have their day in the sun, ... err shadows as it may be.

Half the skills will be useless, some others will work as well as the cloak does now and the rest will synergize better with other classes :P

Marthenil · September 2014

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So a sorc shouldnt actually be a sorc and can be heavy armour 2h tank flying in to battle ?

lol

I kind of know what you are saying. I think you mean the classes should be skill independant (be fighter/assassin/thief/mage with any class). Unfortunately the class skill are aimed at pidgeon holing said classes. IMHO

To me it appears...
Mage guild = sorc
Fighters guild = temp DK
Assassin/thief guild = NB

Have you seen that bolt escape->Crit Charge build ?:P

I think what happened is this: They initially wanted classes set in stone and somewhere down the line changed their minds.

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

You read the class description on the character creation screen, you looked at the class skill lines. You werent hoping for a rogue-type character when deciding to play the class with that knowledge? I sure was.

Just to note - a rogue type class doesn not necessarily need to be a 1-shot assassin. It can be a highly mobile damage dealer, popping in and out of stealth and using cc as a form of defense.

The problem is twofold: What they promised/seem to want the game to be and how stealth is a one trick pony. With a very specific trick too.

On the class choice: You looked at a Nightblade and saw a rogue. I looked at a Nightblade and saw a siphoner/dark caster.
Much in the same way someone looked at a Templar and saw a Paladin whereas someone else saw a Priest.

Rune_Relic · September 2014

Probably right... someone did have some logic behind it to start class wise....but then the staff left the asylum and it was a free for all

Its almosy like someone plucked these classes out of a completely unrelated game and decided to try and shoe horn them into ESO.

khele23eb17_ESO · September 2014

Marthenil wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So a sorc shouldnt actually be a sorc and can be heavy armour 2h tank flying in to battle ?

lol

I kind of know what you are saying. I think you mean the classes should be skill independant (be fighter/assassin/thief/mage with any class). Unfortunately the class skill are aimed at pidgeon holing said classes. IMHO

To me it appears...
Mage guild = sorc
Fighters guild = temp DK
Assassin/thief guild = NB

Have you seen that bolt escape->Crit Charge build ?:P

I think what happened is this: They initially wanted classes set in stone and somewhere down the line changed their minds.

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

You read the class description on the character creation screen, you looked at the class skill lines. You werent hoping for a rogue-type character when deciding to play the class with that knowledge? I sure was.

Just to note - a rogue type class doesn not necessarily need to be a 1-shot assassin. It can be a highly mobile damage dealer, popping in and out of stealth and using cc as a form of defense.

The problem is twofold: What they promised/seem to want the game to be and how stealth is a one trick pony. With a very specific trick too.

Not really. Its at least a 2 trick pony since sneak and invisibility (cloak) are separate things. Or 3 trick since cloak can also be a cleanse. Or a 4 trick since it can be a speed boost. Or a guaranteed crit... or crit and stun... or... well, nvm. What it boils down to is that its a key skill for NBs. Kind of like blazing shield, bolt escape and gdb for other classes.

On the class choice: You looked at a Nightblade and saw a rogue. I looked at a Nightblade and saw a siphoner/dark caster.

And both should be possible and equally viable.

Cody · September 2014

Marthenil wrote: »

Kego wrote: »

Huh?
NBs can be good Mages and Healer in PvP as well. The Tanky Nightblade is more weaker compared to DKs, cause we lack survival and AOE CC Tools in our class lines.

I would even say we are the strongest Pulsar Spammer in this game, cause we are able to buff our WeaponDMG about 99% if our Power Extraction hit 9 targets.
Outside AOE are more good working Mage Builds, be it around Funnel Health + Crippling Grasp or Crushing Shock + Crippling Grasp.

Yeah, but people want even more focus on "stealth". Where will this lead?
As of now, we have some strong passives but the majority are weaker compared to other classes, only synergizing with stealth, which as I have already said is a very small niche.

I just want the NB to have the best stealth. I don't understand why a DK, which has emphasis on straight up combat, can sneak as well as a NB, who emphasizes on stealth.

don't tell me "NBs have cloak" its broken right now, and the potions, which ANYONE can get/make, is better.

There is nothing wrong with a NB wanting to do something besides just sneak and gank. It can be done. heck I have seen it done, I just want our stealth to be better. a 2 and a half second invisibility spell, which either bugs or breaks half the time, is not enough.

Kypho · October 2014

kk no rouge like, but then rename to bugblade, or paperblade, or glassblade, or night butterfly, or just siphonblade, or just blade.

Marthenil · October 2014

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

And both should be possivbe and equally viable.

The problem with that is the ability to "stealth" usually comes with disadvantages in survivability, and stealth is really a one trick pony both in ESO and other ESS titles (with vanilla gameplay in mind, not talking about mods).

Kypho wrote: »

kk no rouge like, but then rename to bugblade, or paperblade, or glassblade, or night butterfly, or just siphonblade, or just blade.

That's ridiculous, with how the game is designed, every class is a simple template, not a predetermined path.
The issue with nightblades is, I daresay, that they are too narrowly driven down the "sneaky" path while other classes are more open.