Werewolf changes I expect - With Evidence and Reasons

ASpaceTurkey · September 2014

After careful consideration and testing on my part, the following post will entail what I expect the Werewolf Form to become, lest I change back to the more fair (IMO) and more fun (IMO) Vampire "Form".

TL:DR? No soup for you! Read it.

Disclaimer: 'This post contains Logic, Points backed up with Facts, and My Informed Opinions. Non-Informed Opinions, "Flaming", Unnecessary Negativity, Points which are not backed up with Facts, and the common "You can't do that! That would make me win less!"/"I don't think you should be able to do something I don't want you to do"-like Arguments, will all be ignored.

Expectation
I expect Werewolf form to be changed from a Timed and Earned Ultimate Ability into a Short-Activating Free Ultimate Toggle, in the Update after the next, no more, no less.

The following are the points and expectations I make in favour of the WW Ultimate becoming a Constant, Free, Toggle Ability, and what I would view as being an Acceptable change to the current:

Benefits
Being a Free and Constant Toggle Ultimate would make being a Werewolf all the more Fun (IMO).
We would not have to grind Mobs for 10-15 Minutes in order to 'earn' our 30-60 seconds-worth of time in Werewolf Form.
Werewolf Form would not be UP or OP due to the Drawbacks of being Transformed.
People would be able to RP while in WW Form, giving another benefit and meaning to the RP in MMO-RPG.
We would be able to fully Experience being a Werewolf in stead of only 30-60 seconds, which is very unfair compared to Vampires being in their form as a Constant (IMO).
We would have Noticably Long Claws and Yellow or Red eyes while in Human Form.
We would have the option to change the colour of our Fur, like we can Armour, using the same Dye Station.

Drawbacks
We would not be able to Self-Heal or use Magicka, only being allowed to use Stamina, making all PvP and PvE OP Arguments Moot.
We would not be able to Interact with NPC's or follow Quest-Lines while in WW Form.
Being in WW Form would still be a 'target' for all players who Utilise Poison and Fighters Guild Abilities in PvP.
We would not be able to be Transformed while in a Town, NPC's would attack us on sight and Players would be able to target us as enemies in PvE.
On a Full Moon we would be Forcefully Transformed as per Lore, making our positioning at such times all the more Important.
We would not be able to change into or from WW Form while being Damaged.

Note: If you wish to Disagree with me, offer a Logical, Concise, Informed, and Citable Post only, posts which to not match that criteria will be ignored, including 'Normal', Unrelated, and Vague Staff Posts.

Brasseurfb16_ESO · September 2014

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

Expectation
I expect Werewolf form to be changed from a Timed and Earned Ultimate Ability into a Short-Activating Free Ultimate Toggle, in the Update after the next, no more, no less.

The following are the points and expectations I make in favour of the WW Ultimate becoming a Constant, Free, Toggle Ability, and what I would view as being an Acceptable change to the current:

Many suggestions have been made before to make WW a toggle. But tell me, I have a honest question. How can a subpar ultimate become acceptable if it remains subpar?

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

Benefits
Being a Free and Constant Toggle Ultimate would make being a Werewolf all the more Fun (IMO).
We would not have to grind Mobs for 10-15 Minutes in order to 'earn' our 30-60 seconds-worth of time in Werewolf Form.
Werewolf Form would not be UP or OP due to the Drawbacks of being Transformed.
People would be able to RP while in WW Form, giving another benefit and meaning to the RP in MMO-RPG.
We would be able to fully Experience being a Werewolf in stead of only 30-60 seconds, which is very unfair compared to Vampires being in their form as a Constant (IMO).
We would have Noticably Long Claws and Yellow or Red eyes while in Human Form.
We would have the option to change the colour of our Fur, like we can Armour, using the same Dye Station.

So basicaly you are asking the devs to focus their efforts on changes, affecting a very small minority of the playerbase and wich are not affecting the WW gameplay directly at all. And you're whole argument and facts resolve around what you think is "fun" and "IMO" wich are both very subjective notions.

Also, for your information (or FYI), it takes around 16 to 17 ennemies to get a single transformation without any ultimate modifiers. In about 5min (even less), in regular PvE content) you can kill that amount of ennemies and get a transformation wich can last up to 115sec if you time your devours correctly.

There is something bobling in my mind right now, after so many of your "considerations", you try to use lore as an excuse to change gameplay features from WW to your own convenience but you also forget everything about that same lore when you personnaly want costumisation for your avatar. How can you justify one without the other?

It has been stated in lorebooks (in game) and a loremaster post on the official website that the fur colour of a WW shows his status among his kin. So if you are truly RP and knew the lore, you wouldn't ask to be able to costumise neither change the colour of the Fur unless the status of your WW would change (aka : morphs)

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

Drawbacks
We would not be able to Self-Heal or use Magicka, only being allowed to use Stamina, making all PvP and PvE OP Arguments Moot.
We would not be able to Interact with NPC's or follow Quest-Lines while in WW Form.
Being in WW Form would still be a 'target' for all players who Utilise Poison and Fighters Guild Abilities in PvP.
We would not be able to be Transformed while in a Town, NPC's would attack us on sight and Players would be able to target us as enemies in PvE.
On a Full Moon we would be Forcefully Transformed as per Lore, making our positioning at such times all the more Important.
We would not be able to change into or from WW Form while being Damaged.

So in this paragraph you basicaly say to all players looking to make the WW combat experience more attractive in both PVE/PVP to get back to LA.

Those changes you are asking for would harm every WW players in many ways :
- By adding the Fullmoon cycle you would cripple players progression during those night times because the Justice System wouldn't allow them to turn their quests. Who wants to be stuck 1 hour away from a town just to clear his inventory or complete his quest? Answer is none!
- Gameplay wise, the transformation in combat is vital for WW because it makes you invulnerable (not CC immune) for that period of time and the fear helps you to mow down targets in the area. Removing that mechanic would make the Ultimate even worse than its current states wich is not what other people, wich care less about RP, would like to see.

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

After careful consideration and testing on my part, the following post will entail what I expect the Werewolf Form to become, lest I change back to the more fair (IMO) and more fun (IMO) Vampire "Form".

TL:DR? No soup for you! Read it.

Disclaimer: 'This post contains Logic, Points backed up with Facts, and My Informed Opinions. Non-Informed Opinions, "Flaming", Unnecessary Negativity, Points which are not backed up with Facts, and the common "You can't do that! That would make me win less!"/"I don't think you should be able to do something I don't want you to do"-like Arguments, will all be ignored.

Nope, you just promoted a feature you would like to see because you like to roleplay and you completely negated every other parts in wich the changes you propose would affect the game, including gameplay (wich is what you will do most of the time). You have no facts backing up your post and an "informed" oppinion means nothing if their is nothing solid to discuss around, especialy when your mind is already settle.

So I am sorry for the wall of text you published, but my answer for your suggestion is a straight no.

Brasseurfb16_ESO · September 2014

As expected, a "lol" was the best answer I could expect from OP.

ASpaceTurkey · September 2014

I see many Negative Comments from you, but not one Positive Comment.
If you want to reply, keep it Civil, and Positive.

1: Making the WW Transformation a Free Non-Timed Toggle Ability would make it fair alongside Vampires who have their Form as a Constant. It certainly is not fair at the moment, only lasting 30-60 seconds on average, even if it may only take as little as 5 minutes to accrue, no matter how you cut it. Being a WW is half our Identity, not 30-60 seconds of it.

2: RP. You say changing the colour of our fur would not be a RP choice, possibly, but do you know what is? A Forced Transformation on a Full Moon.

3: Transforming in Battle. You consider yourself well-versed with RP, yet you made the mistake of assuming a WW would be able to Transform while in battle, while being hit with a plethora of weapons. Logic aside, this would make people think carefully as to where they Transform.

4: Do not comment twice. You may comment once and wait for feedback, the other comment will simply be rendered moot.

I am not here to argue, you may only offer a comment as to how your suggestion would improve on mine, formatted exactly as my original post was. Any further negativity will end in my blocking you.

Brasseurfb16_ESO · September 2014

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

I see many Negative Comments from you, but not one Positive Comment.
If you want to reply, keep it Civil, and Positive.

Are you some kind of moderator? I don't think so, you don't get any privilege to tell me how I can react to your post.

I'm realistic, sincere, well informed, cynical and I think you know by now what I think of your post.

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

1: Making the WW Transformation a Free Non-Timed Toggle Ability would make it fair alongside Vampires who have their Form as a Constant. It certainly is not fair at the moment, only lasting 30-60 seconds on average, even if it may only take as little as 5 minutes to accrue, no matter how you cut it. Being a WW is half our Identity, not 30-60 seconds of it.

You speak about fairness, I speak about balance. Your idea wouldn't fix any issues related to the current WW drama. You might have more fun in RP activities with your ideas but those wouldn't fix the issues related to the transformation, wich are caused by the lack of surviability and CC removal options (both wich are beeing worked on by Zenimax as we speak) and it wouldn't be productive for Zenimax to actualy spend so much time on such poor feature.

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

2: RP. You say changing the colour of our fur would not be a RP choice, possibly, but do you know what is? A Forced Transformation on a Full Moon.

Not only are you wrong about the Blood Moon aspect, but you are also twisting my words to get out of the simple fact you were wrong all this time.

I said you couldn't use a lore argument and ask that some specific mechanics get changed accordingly if you neglet the other mechanics that would otherwise also be affected by that same argument . It's all or nothing, otherwise the point you are trying to make is meaningless.

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

3: Transforming in Battle. You consider yourself well-versed with RP, yet you made the mistake of assuming a WW would be able to Transform while in battle, while being hit with a plethora of weapons. Logic aside, this would make people think carefully as to where they Transform.

Well technicaly it could make sense, because
1) The body of the werewolf is Shapeshifting, its literaly fighting pain with pain while creating new bones, regenerating tissues, and pumping adrenaline into the entire body of the WW.
2) If you actualy read any of the Lorebooks, one of them speaks about a Nord wich was confronted by a WW in the middle of its transformation. He was shocked in fear and unable to react while watching it change into a WW. Wich is exactly what happens in game when ennemies suround you while you transform yourself into a WW.

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

4: Do not comment twice. You may comment once and wait for feedback, the other comment will simply be rendered moot.

I am not here to argue, you may only offer a comment as to how your suggestion would improve on mine, formatted exactly as my original post was. Any further negativity will end in my blocking you.

I got your first feedback, and it was limited to a simple "lol".

Also, if you can't take objective criticism (positive or not) you might aswell stop posting on the forums. This place is all about discussing and sharing oppinions.

Consider yourself lucky I took my time to explain to you why your ideas were biased. Block me as you please, that's only up to you! But IMO, I couldn't care less if you did.

ASpaceTurkey · September 2014

First off, yes, since this is my Post, I decide what can and cannot be posted as a reply. Keeping your post Civil, and Positive was a prerequisite for posting a reply.
If you cannot follow simple rules, do not comment.

Forced Transformations on a Full Moon have always been a fact in and out of ESO Lore, you are wrong. As for Fur colourisation, to keep it Lore-Friendly is not possible, given that the player base numbers in the tens of thousands, if not more, and yes, a large number of people have requested exactly what I have.
You cannot deny Players their choice for Fur Colourisation based on a Lore ruling that if Introduced would not work in the first place.

You speak of balance, badger me for doing the opposite, then turn around and do exactly what you badgered me for?
Making WW Form a Free Constant like Vampires receive upon their receiving their "Gift" would keep both WW and Vampire balanced (Fair). At the current moment, there are more Downsides to being a WW than there are as a Vampire, having your Form Cost Ultimate along with being Timed is one of the biggest.
WW Form is half our identity, not 30-60 seconds of it.

A Warrior with a strong Constitution could easily overcome any Fear associated with witnessing a WW Transformation close up, along with that chance, you are forgetting ranged damage, spells and arrows. Any blow from a weapon, no matter how a WW' body is changing, would kill it very easily if it was not guaranteed to cause fear every time.

If you want to reply to any comment on any Forum, you better have Positive Changes to what you are trying to refute or you are going to be met with utter Hostility every time. To Refute without offering Positive Changes to the opposing argument is an exercise in Stupidity, simply complaining to complain.

We are both adept at Debating, but we come from opposite sides of the fence, I see no reason to continue.

I'm done.

Brasseurfb16_ESO · September 2014

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

First off, yes, since this is my Post, I decide what can and cannot be posted as a reply. Keeping your post Civil, and Positive was a prerequisite for posting a reply.
If you cannot follow simple rules, do not comment.

Nope, you don't get any decisive power on anything, only Zenimax employees do and you are not one of them. I stayed totaly civil with you and I stayed on topic by respecting the following quote you wrote.

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

Note: If you wish to Disagree with me, offer a Logical, Concise, Informed, and Citable Post only, posts which to not match that criteria will be ignored, including 'Normal', Unrelated, and Vague Staff Posts.

My post was logical, informed and concise. Positive wasn't one of your critters. Sorry try again!

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

Forced Transformations on a Full Moon have always been a fact in and out of ESO Lore, you are wrong.

From : http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lycanthropy

"The most important and obvious effect of lycanthropy is the beast transformation itself. While in beast form, the lycanthrope has increased strength, speed, resilience, and stamina, as well as enchanted claws that can harm creatures that are immune to conventional weaponry.[1] Wolves and even bears may have a special affinity for werewolves, being less likely to attack them,[2] and sometimes actually hunting with a werewolf.[5] Were-creatures are affected mentally as well, experiencing intense bloodlust and, in extreme cases, amnesia.
Were-creatures are commonly believed to have an aversion to specific herbs. Canis root is believed to ward off werebears,[1][6] while wolfsbane and belladonna are both known to be poisonous to werewolves,[7] and are used as components of remedies for the disease.[3] Silver weapons are also considered especially effective against werewolves.[6]
The circumstances of the transformation seem to vary wildly between individuals (or perhaps between strains of lycanthropy). Some lycanthropes transform monthly,[4] or even nightly.[3] Others seem able to choose the times of their transformations, even able to give up transformation entirely.[8] The strength of the bloodlust also varies, with some individuals experiencing an uncontrollable desire to kill, and others able to maintain nearly complete control during a transformation. In the worst cases, an individual who lacks the willpower to control a transformation may go feral, becoming little more than a mindless beast.[2]
A few effects of lycanthropy are present outside of transformation. Lycanthropes are immune to all diseases and experience fitful sleep. They also may retain subtle physical traits outside of beast form, such as scents, or small patches of fur.[2] Lycanthropy also has spiritual effects that persist after death. Lycanthropes go to Hircine's Hunting Grounds after death, rather than the afterlife they would otherwise have received.[8][2]
Hircine can grant more power and control over lycanthropy to favored worshipers. This is usually done via a specific artifact such as a ring (see below). Additionally, those favored by Hircine may be granted the ability to transform entirely into a beast rather than a were-creature (e.g. into a wolf rather than a werewolf).[9]"

Get your so called "considerations" and "facts" straight before saying I'm wrong...

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

As for Fur colourisation, to keep it Lore-Friendly is not possible, given that the player base numbers in the tens of thousands, if not more, and yes, a large number of people have requested exactly what I have.
You cannot deny Players their choice for Fur Colourisation based on a Lore ruling that if Introduced would not work in the first place.

I'm not against the feature myself, but you still don't understand my point.

If you follow the mentality that you can not deny players their choice for fur colourisation based on a Lore ruling you must accept the fact you can't do the same for forced transformation, using that same argument, wich is a considerably less popular "feature" because it has the potential to cause many issues and it doesn't add any dept in the game.

People want to PLAY their game, not sink time because of a useless feature.

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

You speak of balance, badger me for doing the opposite, then turn around and do exactly what you badgered me for?
Making WW Form a Free Constant like Vampires receive upon their receiving their "Gift" would keep both WW and Vampire balanced (Fair). At the current moment, there are more Downsides to being a WW than there are as a Vampire, having your Form Cost Ultimate along with being Timed is one of the biggest.
WW Form is half our identity, not 30-60 seconds of it.

Your first mistake is to compare WW with vampires.

Vampires, in their current state, are broken and overpowered in some areas compared to players who don't chose to become one.

Why do you think so many players choose to play as a Vampire toon in higher instances of the game? Setting the bar that high for WW wouldn't be balanced neither would it be fair for people who do not wish to become something inhuman. Even if counters do exist in PvP, the convenience both skill lines could offer could quickly escalate badly to the point where WW and Vampires become mandatory for trials and leaderboards in PvE wich is something we should prevent at all cost.

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

A Warrior with a strong Constitution could easily overcome any Fear associated with witnessing a WW Transformation close up, along with that chance, you are forgetting ranged damage, spells and arrows. Any blow from a weapon, no matter how a WW' body is changing, would kill it very easily if it was not guaranteed to cause fear every time.

This is not DD3 but TES, and if it was not the case, the only thing you would need to resist a fear would be willpower, your high constituted Warrior would still cower in fear with low willpower but his high tougness would maybe prevent him to die from a hearth attack.

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

If you want to reply to any comment on any Forum, you better have Positive Changes to what you are trying to refute or you are going to be met with utter Hostility every time. To Refute without offering Positive Changes to the opposing argument is an exercise in Stupidity, simply complaining to complain.

Refuting is hardly something positive, and to be honest I didn't wanted to suggest anything on this thread because I knew, just by reading your post, how you were going react (You showed me I was right this whole time).

I won't spend any time soon posting positive notes or suggestions on your thread until you make some decent considerations, wich highlight features and their potential drawbacks (not a simple IMO). And I won't share anything else until you start to inform yourself before posting your biased oppinion.

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

We are both adept at Debating, but we come from opposite sides of the fence, I see no reason to continue.

This is probably the only part in your post I will agree you with.

ASpaceTurkey wrote: »

I'm done.

Bye then!

nightwalkerrobin_ESO · September 2014

To the OP and some who have answered. It is spelled "which" not "wich".

DovahkiinWolf · September 2014

I personally would enjoy being able to toggle it on and off. I agree that we don't get near enough WW time in game. It would be quite enjoyable to run around exploring as a WW.

I also think WW should be more powerful, as it is not too useful in VR levels right now, which makes me sad. A few more powerful abilities would be great too.

As for fur coloring, people are mentioning how in TES lore fur coloring is based on status among kin. This could factor in as you could unlock fur color choices depending upon your WW lvl and then choose which of those colors you want. I wouldn't mind being a white lvl 10 WW

Also it would be neat if your normal form had a few WW characteristics, such as fangs and glowing wolf like eyes. And personally I'd like to always have a tail, I like tails, haha.

All in all I do agree WW needs a decent overhaul that would make it worthwhile for people who love werewolves, which would be pretty much anyone who choose WW over Vampire being as, sadly, its not really that useful.