Nightblade class abilities that go off of weapon crit...

Stx · July 2014

I have a question about some of the Nightblade abilities mainly Veiled Strike, Impale, Ambush, and the ultimate Incapacitate/Soul Harvest.

I thought I knew what attributes boosted these abilities, but I have read so much conflicting information that I am really confused at this point.

From what i understand, these class abilities that are melee still go off of weapon critical chance and weapon power even though they cost magicka? I know that tests were done to show that armor piercing increases their damage and spell resist piercing does not... but then I also read that spell damage enchants boost these class skill damage...

I guess the point of this post is to confirm that Veiled Strike etc use weapon crit and armor reduction... and also I need to know if they scale from weapon power or spell power... because I have read both.

Thanks =(

P.S. ZoS, why in Gods name did you make the skill/stat system so darn silly?

Sharee · July 2014

All class abilites use spellpower. Only weapon abilities use weapon power(even staves)

Melee abilities use weapon crit, even if they are class abilities (so veiled strike crit is based on weapon crit, but it's damage is based on spellpower)

Stx · July 2014

Thanks...

so I need to gear for magicka... weapon crit.. spell power, and armor piercing...

Makes no sense lol, but that is what I shall do.

Samadhi · July 2014

Stx wrote: »

Thanks...

so I need to gear for magicka... weapon crit.. spell power, and armor piercing...

Makes no sense lol, but that is what I shall do.

Shadowy Disguise morph of Shadow Cloak gives 100% weapon critical for its duration. With high magicka and magicka regeneration I can cast it whenever I need one of these skills to crit.
Also having them crit on physical proc allows them to be used from sneak for the 3x sneak attack bonus damage. Skills that benefit from Spell Crit do not receive the sneak attack bonus damage modifier.

Pancake-Tragedy · July 2014

-delete-

Lynx7386 · July 2014

I'm pretty positive, at this point, that there is one simple reason behind why these class abilities function this way (gaining damage from magicka but using melee critical) - and that reason is to allow all types of builds to use the skills equally well.

Think about it - if you play a spellcaster, you're going to be wearing light armor, using a staff, and have a heavy priority on magicka/spellpower. Because abilities like impale or surprise attack scale off of spell power and magicka, this makes the ability do more damage for you, even though it wont crit very often.

On the other hand, if you play a melee combatant that uses melee weapons, medium armor, and focuses on stamina, you'll do less damage with these abilities due to not having the magicka/spellpower of a caster, but you'll crit much more often due to the crit bonuses from melee/stamina weapons and medium armor.

In the end, both work out to doing similar damage - you're either critting very frequently with lower base damage, or not critting frequently with higher base damage.

Of course, you could try to build to both strengths, using melee weapons and medium armor to maximize melee critical while focusing as heavily as possible on spell damage and magicka, and that would make your class skills really effective, but you'd be less effective with other spells or melee/weapon attacks.

ArRashid · July 2014

And THIS, people, is the boon of half melee's problems. Oh well, till they reconsider their balancing, people may need to use Spell power enchants even as melees...

Vuron · July 2014

ArRashid wrote: »

And THIS, people, is the boon of half melee's problems. Oh well, till they reconsider their balancing, people may need to use Spell power enchants even as melees...

It's not really that big of a problem.

While solo leveling, I ran 5 medium/2 light with all magicka enchants and even points in magicka. The 2 light were Warlock pieces with 1 piece of Warlock jewelry to finish the set. Add 3 piece Willow's, 3 piece Magnus, and spell power enchanted rings and you can do some serious damage... even with DW.

I didn't bother with any of the weapon abilities because they simply can't compare to class or guild abilities. I still consider myself melee because I was fighting in melee range, using mostly Ambush, Surprise Attack, Swallow Soul, and Impale.

I was soft capped on Magicka, Health, Magicka regen, and stamina regen. I soft capped health when I used food.

I think that part of the problem with people playing "traditional" Nightblades is that they have an aversion to the word "Magicka". I think that if ZoS renamed the pools from Magicka and Stamina to Power and Defense, we'd have a lot less problems.

Jaxom · July 2014

Vuron wrote: »

ArRashid wrote: »

And THIS, people, is the boon of half melee's problems. Oh well, till they reconsider their balancing, people may need to use Spell power enchants even as melees...

It's not really that big of a problem.

While solo leveling, I ran 5 medium/2 light with all magicka enchants and even points in magicka. The 2 light were Warlock pieces with 1 piece of Warlock jewelry to finish the set. Add 3 piece Willow's, 3 piece Magnus, and spell power enchanted rings and you can do some serious damage... even with DW.

I didn't bother with any of the weapon abilities because they simply can't compare to class or guild abilities. I still consider myself melee because I was fighting in melee range, using mostly Ambush, Surprise Attack, Swallow Soul, and Impale.

I was soft capped on Magicka, Health, Magicka regen, and stamina regen. I soft capped health when I used food.

I think that part of the problem with people playing "traditional" Nightblades is that they have an aversion to the word "Magicka". I think that if ZoS renamed the pools from Magicka and Stamina to Power and Defense, we'd have a lot less problems.

Agreed. I think it would go a long way to help balance Magicka and Stamina NB if they allowed the class skill damage to scale off of which ever stat you have higher as well, similar to what they plan on implementing with Ultimates.

This will give us the ability to wield a Weapon that is not a resto staff and still be competitive. It would be nice to have a Bow, spec for Stamina but have our class abilities scale from Weapon Power and Stamina instead of Spell Power, Magicka and Weapon Crit. Still make it cost Magicka but at least have the scaling someone consistent. I think many NB's would be happy with this change as it wouldnt change the current LA/Staff set up and would make other combinations viable as well.

Just a thought.

CapuchinSeven · July 2014

It would be so so nice to have a stamina build for my bow, but not totally gimp my class skills.

Pmarsico9 · July 2014

I think the way it works is that some abilities do in fact go off weapon power, but scale off spell crit, not weapon crit. So I think the other post is backwards.

I know puncturing strikes for my templar scales off weapon power but not weapon crit, and spell crit instead..........I've tested this and its confirmed.

Maybe it's not consistent between classes, but it's very odd.

I think it would go a long way to help balance Magicka and Stamina NB if they allowed the class skill damage to scale off of which ever stat you have higher as well, similar to what they plan on implementing with Ultimates.

Yeah across all classes, imo.

CapuchinSeven · July 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

It would be so so nice to have a stamina build for my bow, but not totally gimp my class skills.

Actually given this a go, comically loving my stamina build and killing staff users with it.

Teloran · July 2014

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

I know puncturing strikes for my templar scales off weapon power but not weapon crit, and spell crit instead..........I've tested this and its confirmed.

I'm pretty sure that all class abilities scale off spell power. I haven't explicitly tested this with puncturing strikes myself but I have seen videos that confirm that it does indeed scale off spell power. Would you mind posting your numbers and testing methodology?

Pmarsico9 · July 2014

Teloran wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

I know puncturing strikes for my templar scales off weapon power but not weapon crit, and spell crit instead..........I've tested this and its confirmed.

I'm pretty sure that all class abilities scale off spell power. I haven't explicitly tested this with puncturing strikes myself but I have seen videos that confirm that it does indeed scale off spell power. Would you mind posting your numbers and testing methodology?

Yes. They do. I reversed what I meant: Certain abilities go off Weapon Crit others off spell crit. All class abilities go off spell damage.

My mistake.

Since the Thief plus Divines on gear is the only way to raise critical strike and Precise on weapons, does it matter which crit anyway?

Teloran · July 2014

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Teloran wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

I know puncturing strikes for my templar scales off weapon power but not weapon crit, and spell crit instead..........I've tested this and its confirmed.

I'm pretty sure that all class abilities scale off spell power. I haven't explicitly tested this with puncturing strikes myself but I have seen videos that confirm that it does indeed scale off spell power. Would you mind posting your numbers and testing methodology?

Yes. They do. I reversed what I meant: Certain abilities go off Weapon Crit others off spell crit. All class abilities go off spell damage.

My mistake.

Since the Thief plus Divines on gear is the only way to raise critical strike and Precise on weapons, does it matter which crit anyway?

Ah, I see. It's pretty much only an issue of light vs medium and Inner Light for the crit. I actually run a magica build with medium armor on my nightblade just for the crit with siphoning strikes to make up for the magica loss.

Grim13 · August 2014

Questions:

How in the hell do I raise my spell power higher!?

As a v12 NB, what amount of spell power should I be looking for?

Would I be accurate in saying that to increase the damage output of my class skills I'd need to use a staff as a weapon!?!?! (Well, no wonder NBs are @#$%!)

Jaxom · August 2014

Raise spell

Grim13 wrote: »

Questions:

How in the hell do I raise my spell power higher!?

As a v12 NB, what amount of spell power should I be looking for?

Would I be accurate in saying that to increase the damage output of my class skills I'd need to use a staff as a weapon!?!?! (Well, no wonder NBs are @#$%!)

raise spell power by wearing light armor, passives and spell power rings and neck. NB can get up to 132 and 148 in stealth.

Anjelicus · August 2014

For the NB basically Assasination tree scales off Magic dmg, and Weapon crit... which i think should be this way honestly.

If the number 1 execute in the game went off spell crit instead of weapon crit, we would have 100% execute crit with pots. Having this mix is in its own way is a balancing act of sorts... what do you want more of, well overall dmg right?

For the NB(if you want to the big numbers) you want to go Spell Crit > Spell Damage > Weapon Crit, its that easy. My post patch 1.3.3 NB will be amazebawls lol

Heres what im looking at post patch, and this is not including Cyrodill buffs, this is strictly from gear/passives.

+62.6% Spell Critical
+32.6% Weapon Critical
+44 Spell Damage
+688 Magicka

khele23eb17_ESO · August 2014

Vuron wrote: »

I think that part of the problem with people playing "traditional" Nightblades is that they have an aversion to the word "Magicka". I think that if ZoS renamed the pools from Magicka and Stamina to Power and Defense, we'd have a lot less problems.

If they moved all the weapon skills to use Power then yes.

thesongoftimeb14_ESO · August 2014

Sharee wrote: »

All class abilites use spellpower. Only weapon abilities use weapon power(even staves)

Melee abilities use weapon crit, even if they are class abilities (so veiled strike crit is based on weapon crit, but it's damage is based on spellpower)

Can You Repeat The Part Of The Stuff Where You Said All about the things?

GwaynLoki · August 2014

thesongoftimeb14_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

All class abilites use spellpower. Only weapon abilities use weapon power(even staves)

Melee abilities use weapon crit, even if they are class abilities (so veiled strike crit is based on weapon crit, but it's damage is based on spellpower)

Can You Repeat The Part Of The Stuff Where You Said All about the things?

This has been discussed here: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/how-much-visible-damage-does-spell-damage-give/
Post number 15 (just reedited the part between the []):

"Class skills = [spell damage + max magicka] + spell crit (exception below)

Class melee range skills = [like above but:] melee crit not spell crit

Melee weapon skills = weapon damage + max stamina and melee crit

Staff weapon skills = weapon damage + max magicka and spell crit"

Kypho · August 2014

i like that melee is about weapon crit. less nublightarmor.

Code2501 · August 2014

Kypho wrote: »

i like that melee is about weapon crit. less nublightarmor.

meh, I melee in 5/2 light/heavy, is it optimal, nope, but I think it looks cool and It works well enough. Besides, If I want weapon crit I could 5/4 DW Night Mother/Hundings sets for 16% off the bat + passives and weapon traits.
Heck, you could probably get close to 45% melee crit as a DW precise traited dagger/dagger NB with assassin skill loadout without touching medium.
Medium would get you closer to 70%, at the expense of magicka, but your likely to not have a large assassin skill loadout then due exchanging mag for stam, so you'll be back down some.
Pre 1.3 NB's had less options to buff melee crit, but the new sets give you plenty of melee crit options as a NB, as it should be.

reften · August 2014

Anjelicus wrote: »

For the NB basically Assasination tree scales off Magic dmg, and Weapon crit... which i think should be this way honestly.

If the number 1 execute in the game went off spell crit instead of weapon crit, we would have 100% execute crit with pots. Having this mix is in its own way is a balancing act of sorts... what do you want more of, well overall dmg right?

For the NB(if you want to the big numbers) you want to go Spell Crit > Spell Damage > Weapon Crit, its that easy. My post patch 1.3.3 NB will be amazebawls lol

Heres what im looking at post patch, and this is not including Cyrodill buffs, this is strictly from gear/passives.

+62.6% Spell Critical
+32.6% Weapon Critical
+44 Spell Damage
+688 Magicka

Except...more and more PvP'ers are running 600+ impen...

tbrocato · August 2014

I ended up rolling 7 medium - 5 piece Hundings Rage / 4 piece Ashen Grip...pump up stamina until you hit cap....dump the rest into magicka. I wear +magicka / +magicka regen jewlery. Basically rolling Shadow Cloak / Ambush / Concealed Weapon / flying blade or steel tornado / blood craze. Since this is a stamina based build I only use Ambush / Concealed Weapon as opener and roll with flying blade as main dps ability....it hits like a truck. This stamina setup scales much better with my bow setup...

GwaynLoki · September 2014

GwaynLoki wrote: »

This has been discussed here: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/how-much-visible-damage-does-spell-damage-give/
Post number 15 (just reedited the part between the []):

"Class skills = [spell damage + max magicka] + spell crit (exception below)

Class melee range skills = [like above but:] melee crit not spell crit

Melee weapon skills = weapon damage + max stamina and melee crit

Staff weapon skills = weapon damage + max magicka and spell crit"

It's a good thing for Zeni they didn't release their formulas and give people more access to API because in that case people might have worked out more quickly stuff like the bugged spell pen trait.