stealth nerf to crit surge?

Erock25 · August 2014

I logged into pts the other day and my crit surge was providing way less weapon dmg and only healing for 35% of dmg done... What gives? Was my character bugged?

kkampaseb17_ESO · August 2014

Is that for real? Did they change maybe the obnoxious condition that you have to crit through impenetrable for this to work in PvP?

So atm it reads that whenever you critical hit you gain 35% of the damage as healing?

madangrypally · August 2014

I just tested it and it was the same for me. (as in I see the same as what is on live, so no nerf)

I had the same magicka as on live and on PTS and received the same Weapon Damage value of around 75.

The tooltip said it heals for 65% of the damage done when it critically hits.

Artemiisia · August 2014

im not on the PTS server, but it seems like every new piece of info you guys are coming with.

is really taking its tore on light armor dps players, the nerf hammer is on !

Erock25 · August 2014

madangrypally wrote: »

I just tested it and it was the same for me.

I had the same magicka as on live and on PTS and received the same Weapon Damage value of around 75.

The tooltip said it heals for 65% of the damage done when it critically hits.

Okay thanks for this. Please disregard this topic. I must hve been bugged or seeing things.

heyguyslol · August 2014

Artemiisia wrote: »

im not on the PTS server, but it seems like every new piece of info you guys are coming with.

is really taking its tore on light armor dps players, the nerf hammer is on !

Unfortunately the players who are hell bent on stam builds balancing are forcing zos to nerf magicka builds while also buffing stam. This is a very bad move as its going to greatly out balance things in pvp. I have nothing against stam builds and wouldn't mind proper balancing and also maybe try playing one as an alt but zos's approach to fixing the problem is again a bad choice.

The whole Concentration nerf is a huge nerf to light armor players down from 42% to 28% thats a 14% dmg loss. Imo if they are going to nerf it they should have nerfed it to 2/5% down from 3/6%, 2/4% is entirely way to low that stam builds will now probably out dps in pvp and pve.

khele23eb17_ESO · August 2014

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

im not on the PTS server, but it seems like every new piece of info you guys are coming with.

is really taking its tore on light armor dps players, the nerf hammer is on !

Unfortunately the players who are hell bent on stam builds balancing are forcing zos to nerf magicka builds while also buffing stam. This is a very bad move as its going to greatly out balance things in pvp. I have nothing against stam builds and wouldn't mind proper balancing and also maybe try playing one as an alt but zos's approach to fixing the problem is again a bad choice.

The whole Concentration nerf is a huge nerf to light armor players down from 42% to 28% thats a 14% dmg loss. Imo if they are going to nerf it they should have nerfed it to 2/5% down from 3/6%, 2/4% is entirely way to low that stam builds will now probably out dps in pvp and pve.

Stam builds dont have the sustainability to outdps magicka builds. Stam AoE isnt that good compared to Impulse spam either.

Fizzonance · August 2014

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

The whole Concentration nerf is a huge nerf to light armor players down from 42% to 28% thats a 14% dmg loss. Imo if they are going to nerf it they should have nerfed it to 2/5% down from 3/6%, 2/4% is entirely way to low that stam builds will now probably out dps in pvp and pve.

This is terrible, indeed. Any experience from PTS regarding how this, in practice, affects the DPS?

forthewinn2 · August 2014

mikaelvinrothb16_ESO wrote: »

This is terrible, indeed. Any experience from PTS regarding how this, in practice, affects the DPS?

The nerf to the Concentration passive is honestly pretty minor.
Don't get me wrong the nerf was warranted, but it's not going to drastically change anyone's dps.

Brasseurfb16_ESO · August 2014

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

im not on the PTS server, but it seems like every new piece of info you guys are coming with.

is really taking its tore on light armor dps players, the nerf hammer is on !

Unfortunately the players who are hell bent on stam builds balancing are forcing zos to nerf magicka builds while also buffing stam. This is a very bad move as its going to greatly out balance things in pvp. I have nothing against stam builds and wouldn't mind proper balancing and also maybe try playing one as an alt but zos's approach to fixing the problem is again a bad choice.

The whole Concentration nerf is a huge nerf to light armor players down from 42% to 28% thats a 14% dmg loss. Imo if they are going to nerf it they should have nerfed it to 2/5% down from 3/6%, 2/4% is entirely way to low that stam builds will now probably out dps in pvp and pve.

Just a serious question, how did you get a 14% dmg loss with a 14% penetration nerf?

Because to get to such a value, your target should requiere to have 100% mitigation to actualy make you loose that much of dmg. Ennemies in PvE usualy don' t have a lot of armour/spell resist and for PvP not a lot of people run with hardcaped spellresist. They will usualy run softcaped wich is around 30% mitigation. So we are speaking at best for 7% less damage if someone is hardcaped (and thats very rare) in PvP and around 2% less damage in PvE, wich represents nothing realy.

Antirob · August 2014

Hopefully the nerf it more. Being able to hard cap weapon power without enchants is mental.

Attorneyatlawl · August 2014

Antirob wrote: »

Hopefully the nerf it more. Being able to hard cap weapon power without enchants is mental.

I agree it would be mental, but you can't hardcap weapon damage with only crit surge and no enchants or set bonuses, by a mile. You can push 3 points past the softcap only, with critical surge (short temporary buff + costs magicka) + a legendary staff, above the vr14 softcap of 203.

Weapon damage doesn't hardcap until 260 or so per my knowledge.

I can reach 171 weapon damage with a legendary v12 staff and igneous weapons alone (temporary buff costing magicka, longer duration to offset it) out of 198 v12 softcap and no enchants/set bonuses on live.

I can reach 206 out of the 203 softcap with a v14 sorc character and critical surge using a v14 staff on PTS.

I can reach 200 without critical surge on the same v14 pts character by equipping 300 weapdmg rings and one +17 set bonus, and finally 232 with crit surge, well below the hardcap as I know people who run around on live with 240-245 currently.

It was not nerfed on PTS as of this time, thankfully. I'm not actually sure it's possible to hit the hardcap without using hunding's rage + two-fanged snake rings + ashen grip 3pc + a legendary vr14 staff + crit surge + 3x weapon dmg glyphs or some other extreme setup purposefully to try to do so.

Attorneyatlawl · August 2014

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

im not on the PTS server, but it seems like every new piece of info you guys are coming with.

is really taking its tore on light armor dps players, the nerf hammer is on !

Unfortunately the players who are hell bent on stam builds balancing are forcing zos to nerf magicka builds while also buffing stam. This is a very bad move as its going to greatly out balance things in pvp. I have nothing against stam builds and wouldn't mind proper balancing and also maybe try playing one as an alt but zos's approach to fixing the problem is again a bad choice.

The whole Concentration nerf is a huge nerf to light armor players down from 42% to 28% thats a 14% dmg loss. Imo if they are going to nerf it they should have nerfed it to 2/5% down from 3/6%, 2/4% is entirely way to low that stam builds will now probably out dps in pvp and pve.

Stam builds dont have the sustainability to outdps magicka builds. Stam AoE isnt that good compared to Impulse spam either.

Yeah, evil hunter regenning tons of stam while belting out 800-1k crits with steel tornado in a proper build with 95-100% crit obtainable without huge gear sacrifices, (including the 20% campaign bonus, you could if wanted use a potion for another 20% which will tear through the average 30-40% impenetrable the general zerg runs with clocking in at a total rating of 115-120% minus the 30-40% = 75-80% chance to crit them) on sub-40% health targets is really poor compared to impulse spam of at best 400-450 crits on people, and about 600 being the best I've seen on a vampire using a fire staff. Oh, and you're keeping your magicka untouched for other uses.

/sarcasm

dsalter · August 2014

Artemiisia wrote: »

im not on the PTS server, but it seems like every new piece of info you guys are coming with.

is really taking its tore on light armor dps players, the nerf hammer is on !

exept i'm a DW medium user who uses this as his main form of survival.

khele23eb17_ESO · August 2014

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

im not on the PTS server, but it seems like every new piece of info you guys are coming with.

is really taking its tore on light armor dps players, the nerf hammer is on !

Unfortunately the players who are hell bent on stam builds balancing are forcing zos to nerf magicka builds while also buffing stam. This is a very bad move as its going to greatly out balance things in pvp. I have nothing against stam builds and wouldn't mind proper balancing and also maybe try playing one as an alt but zos's approach to fixing the problem is again a bad choice.

The whole Concentration nerf is a huge nerf to light armor players down from 42% to 28% thats a 14% dmg loss. Imo if they are going to nerf it they should have nerfed it to 2/5% down from 3/6%, 2/4% is entirely way to low that stam builds will now probably out dps in pvp and pve.

Stam builds dont have the sustainability to outdps magicka builds. Stam AoE isnt that good compared to Impulse spam either.

Yeah, evil hunter regenning tons of stam while belting out 800-1k crits with steel tornado in a proper build with 95-100% crit obtainable without huge gear sacrifices, (including the 20% campaign bonus, you could if wanted use a potion for another 20% which will tear through the average 30-40% impenetrable the general zerg runs with clocking in at a total rating of 115-120% minus the 30-40% = 75-80% chance to crit them) on sub-40% health targets is really poor compared to impulse spam of at best 400-450 crits on people, and about 600 being the best I've seen on a vampire using a fire staff. Oh, and you're keeping your magicka untouched for other uses.

/sarcasm

1. Im talking PvE; 2. not all targets are daedra/undead; 3. sure, not fighting for your campaign but instead jumping between winning ones is the way to go; 4. steel tornado is a finisher, you have to bring the mobs' HP down quite a bit before you see high crits. About the 1k crits... not likely - with 215 overcharged weapon dmg and 2252 stamina it crits on mobs for about 716-719 at the 'below 20%' stage.

Attorneyatlawl · August 2014

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

im not on the PTS server, but it seems like every new piece of info you guys are coming with.

is really taking its tore on light armor dps players, the nerf hammer is on !

Unfortunately the players who are hell bent on stam builds balancing are forcing zos to nerf magicka builds while also buffing stam. This is a very bad move as its going to greatly out balance things in pvp. I have nothing against stam builds and wouldn't mind proper balancing and also maybe try playing one as an alt but zos's approach to fixing the problem is again a bad choice.

The whole Concentration nerf is a huge nerf to light armor players down from 42% to 28% thats a 14% dmg loss. Imo if they are going to nerf it they should have nerfed it to 2/5% down from 3/6%, 2/4% is entirely way to low that stam builds will now probably out dps in pvp and pve.

Stam builds dont have the sustainability to outdps magicka builds. Stam AoE isnt that good compared to Impulse spam either.

Yeah, evil hunter regenning tons of stam while belting out 800-1k crits with steel tornado in a proper build with 95-100% crit obtainable without huge gear sacrifices, (including the 20% campaign bonus, you could if wanted use a potion for another 20% which will tear through the average 30-40% impenetrable the general zerg runs with clocking in at a total rating of 115-120% minus the 30-40% = 75-80% chance to crit them) on sub-40% health targets is really poor compared to impulse spam of at best 400-450 crits on people, and about 600 being the best I've seen on a vampire using a fire staff. Oh, and you're keeping your magicka untouched for other uses.

/sarcasm

1. Im talking PvE; 2. not all targets are daedra/undead; 3. sure, not fighting for your campaign but instead jumping between winning ones is the way to go; 4. steel tornado is a finisher, you have to bring the mobs' HP down quite a bit before you see high crits. About the 1k crits... not likely - with 215 overcharged weapon dmg and 2252 stamina it crits on mobs for about 716-719 at the 'below 20%' stage.

That's great, but we're all talking about PVP, if you read the context. In there you can root people and they take a large amount of extra damage from dual wield skills thanks to the Ruffian passive

. Additionally, dw swords give you 5% raw damage. 1k crits are entirely possible and often occur.

Regarding a campaign I fight for my guild's home campaign but unless you're running for Emperor it matters not what your home is set to except the buffs you get right now

. You're just shortchanging yourself if you aren't aiming for emp and don't home on a favorable campaign

currently which sucks but is what it is. Not sure what brought that to mind for you anyway... since it had nothing to do with the actual conversation.

trimsic_ESO · August 2014

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

im not on the PTS server, but it seems like every new piece of info you guys are coming with.

is really taking its tore on light armor dps players, the nerf hammer is on !

Unfortunately the players who are hell bent on stam builds balancing are forcing zos to nerf magicka builds while also buffing stam. This is a very bad move as its going to greatly out balance things in pvp. I have nothing against stam builds and wouldn't mind proper balancing and also maybe try playing one as an alt but zos's approach to fixing the problem is again a bad choice.

The whole Concentration nerf is a huge nerf to light armor players down from 42% to 28% thats a 14% dmg loss. Imo if they are going to nerf it they should have nerfed it to 2/5% down from 3/6%, 2/4% is entirely way to low that stam builds will now probably out dps in pvp and pve.

As long as the metagame is almost entirely based on magicka skills, as long as people have the same clone of the light armor + destro staff + inner light + pulsar + equilibrium + immovable + bat swarm, and finally as long as we can't see as many stamina builds as magicka builds in zerging balls in Cyrodiil, then I will support, encourage, and applaud the decisions taken by the game designers to balance the game.

I'm tired, really tired of the the poor metagame in Cyrodiil, which consists in stacking Pulsar and the rest, because of light armor passives and other skill mechanics that make magicka players ultimately overpowered.

I say STOP.

Tamanous · September 2014

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

As long as the metagame is almost entirely based on magicka skills, as long as people have the same clone of the light armor + destro staff + inner light + pulsar + equilibrium + immovable + bat swarm, and finally as long as we can't see as many stamina builds as magicka builds in zerging balls in Cyrodiil, then I will support, encourage, and applaud the decisions taken by the game designers to balance the game.

I'm tired, really tired of the the poor metagame in Cyrodiil, which consists in stacking Pulsar and the rest, because of light armor passives and other skill mechanics that make magicka players ultimately overpowered.

I say STOP.

You are obviously not alone. My frustrations grow each patch this isn't seriously addressed. The biggest issue is that this is setting firm expectations on how this game should be played. This amounts to poisoning the well you drink out of. If finally ZoS wakes up to the seriousness of these issues and makes the required changes we will see a very large portion of the player base disillusioned. Those accepting how this games plays are also those who will quit. This is always the threat of major mechanical changes in an mmo. Each player's faith that is saved dismantles the belief of those currently accepting the status quo.

I've already stated this but ESO is a game where I have to explain to friends (and potential players) that in order to maximize dps you have to take a HEALING STAFF! I am absolutely flabbergasted that a developer can design a game where a healing and support weapon is required to maximize dps. I am honestly too embarrassed to even mention this to a buddy interested in this game who I have over 20 years of pnp rpg gaming with. I simply mention there are balance issues currently and waiting to play isn't a bad thing. If I mentioned the core mechanical issues this games suffers from he would lose interest fast.

I support a min/max game (because a life of rpgs is all about that) but many of the design choices in this game truly bothers me to the point where I have already cancelled my 3 month payment sub. I still enjoy some simple pve action as mainly a solo game at this point but if major changes are not introduced by the time this sub runs out I will not continue. Not a threat ... simple fact.

The game is beautiful and I even put up with the theme park approach to the game but if I cannot see any reason to do nothing more than stand on top of each other and spam heals and dps I am done. Done like dinner.

Varicite · September 2014

Artemiisia wrote: »

The whole Concentration nerf is a huge nerf to light armor players down from 42% to 28% thats a 14% dmg loss. Imo if they are going to nerf it they should have nerfed it to 2/5% down from 3/6%, 2/4% is entirely way to low that stam builds will now probably out dps in pvp and pve.

Just felt the need to pipe in here..

The Concentration nerf is nowhere even close to a 14% damage loss. For starters, 1% spell penetration is NOT the same as 1% damage, by any means.

Secondly, due to the way that spell penetration works currently, it takes away from spell resistance additively. In other words, if you are fighting a player w/ 40% spell resistance (unlikely), and you have 42% spell penetration, your opponent's resistance is now 0. 40 - 42 = -2 (or 0, since you can't have negative resistance).

That's just the way that the mechanic works currently, and makes light armor incredibly strong against literally anybody. This is not even including the 10% from Destro staff that brings it up to 52% spell penetration.

The hardcap for spell resistance is 50%. So 52% spell penetration reduces anybody that you may possibly fight down to 0%.

The mechanic is broken, and the Concentration nerf is justified. If you thought that it was fair to negate 100% of anybody's spell resistance, no matter how much they stacked, w/out doing anything but equipping armor and a staff, then you probably aren't in favor of a balanced game anyway.

/shrug

Mumyo · September 2014

Does Zenimax even know about this stupid math in their game?

Kypho · September 2014

Crit surge was always OP, need ballance, but i think its a bug,because ZoS loves unballanced craps in game. Look at 2h sorcerer build

its funny....
No need to flame. try it self. its BS just like the lolmagickal damage shields and shield stacking.

Attorneyatlawl · September 2014

Varicite wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

The whole Concentration nerf is a huge nerf to light armor players down from 42% to 28% thats a 14% dmg loss. Imo if they are going to nerf it they should have nerfed it to 2/5% down from 3/6%, 2/4% is entirely way to low that stam builds will now probably out dps in pvp and pve.

Secondly, due to the way that spell penetration works currently, it takes away from spell resistance additively. In other words, if you are fighting a player w/ 40% spell resistance (unlikely), and you have 42% spell penetration, your opponent's resistance is now 0. 40 - 42 = -2 (or 0, since you can't have negative resistance).

Do you have a link to actual testing that is controlled and follows some semblance of the scientific method (unlike most I have seen) I can look at?

Honest question.

Varicite · September 2014

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

The whole Concentration nerf is a huge nerf to light armor players down from 42% to 28% thats a 14% dmg loss. Imo if they are going to nerf it they should have nerfed it to 2/5% down from 3/6%, 2/4% is entirely way to low that stam builds will now probably out dps in pvp and pve.

Secondly, due to the way that spell penetration works currently, it takes away from spell resistance additively. In other words, if you are fighting a player w/ 40% spell resistance (unlikely), and you have 42% spell penetration, your opponent's resistance is now 0. 40 - 42 = -2 (or 0, since you can't have negative resistance).

Do you have a link to actual testing that is controlled and follows some semblance of the scientific method (unlike most I have seen) I can look at? Honest question.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/spell-penetration-testing-in-pvp-first-results/

You'll have to read all the way through this thread to get the real gist of what I'm saying, but it's pretty short. : )

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/fire-resist-and-spell-resist-please-confirmunconfirm/

There is a little bit more here to add to the first thread.

Hope this helps.

Attorneyatlawl · September 2014

I've read that first thread before and it doesn't do sufficient testing to draw any conclusion from... .. The second thread has people parroting without sources... Except one post by for the win that has correct info as I always understood it from testing and the wording of the passives . So no, neither thread has any proof of it working in a raw additive fashion or letting you bypass everyone's resistance fully.

Edit. Thanks for the effort on your post though

. The info in them just is not right is all.

Varicite · September 2014

It does let you bypass everyone's resistance fully, however it's also possibly bugged currently, which skews testing results. : /

Edit: Hmm, I thought that one of those threads also supplied the in-game formula for how spell penetration is calculated, which is really what I wanted to show.

I'll keep looking for it, though I do know what it is offhand. I'd just like to show it from a more official source than "random poster on internet forum", lol.

kkampaseb17_ESO · September 2014

Unfortunately I have undocumented tests on live server that show that Light armor + sharpened weapon bypasses up to 43% of spell resistance (maximum I have been able to get) since it does a certain amount of damage irrespectably of enemy resistance levels (0-43%...well you cannot achieve 0). That cannot happen with multiplicative reduction of resistance. It has to be a flat additive reduction to cause that effect.

Comaetilico · September 2014

1) undocumented test say nothing...
2) there is a known bug with sharpened weapon that drasticaly increase the amount of spell penetration (it actualy seem like sharpened multiply your spell penetration by the amount indicated on the weapon as a flat number instead of increasing it by a %... so you have 12X of your spell penetration instead of a 12% additional spell penetration...)... that is what makes most of the test on spell penetration seem wrong when you compare the data...
3) the bug with sharpened also apply to armor... but is harder to find other source of armor reduction that works in % (most armor reduction in fact reduce the target armor by a flat number rather than ingorin x% of his armor that is what the sharpened multiply...)so it is noticed much less

kkampaseb17_ESO · September 2014

Comaetilico wrote: »

1) undocumented test say nothing...
2) there is a known bug with sharpened weapon that drasticaly increase the amount of spell penetration (it actualy seem like sharpened multiply your spell penetration by the amount indicated on the weapon as a flat number instead of increasing it by a %... so you have 12X of your spell penetration instead of a 12% additional spell penetration...)... that is what makes most of the test on spell penetration seem wrong when you compare the data...
3) the bug with sharpened also apply to armor... but is harder to find other source of armor reduction that works in % (most armor reduction in fact reduce the target armor by a flat number rather than ingorin x% of his armor that is what the sharpened multiply...)so it is noticed much less

So the better question here is whether the developers have corrected this bug with sharpened weapons on PTS. Can anyone answer to this?