Rune_Relic wrote: »

The problem for me is I expect a level 40 monster to have comparable health and stats [modified by devs] to a level 40 player. When I see a world boss or minion at a dolmen, I really have no idea how powerful they are compared to me as a player. In many games these monsters always have 1 for 1 equivalent of player level on their name tag so you new exactly how difficult that monster would be.

Actually, in the overwhelming majority of mmos, boss monsters are not simply regarded as higher level normal monsters because that simply doesn't make sense at all.

There are different effects inherent to level that are not present in bosses, and conversely, there are effects inherent to being a boss that are not associated with level.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Your missing the point I think.
How do I know what I am up against if I have nothing (no reference point at all) to compare it too ?

Secondly all monsters have to use the same stats system as players do or you would never be able to do the combat calcs.

Of course they work inside the same system, but that doesn't mean they can't get perks for being a boss.

Regardless, specifically this here

Rune_Relic wrote: »

This helps grouping to a great deal. As I can see that if it is level 50....I will need 5x level 10 players to put up a good fight or just 1x level 50 player to take it head on.

was AFAIK not true in any mmo ever, because level is not linearly translated to power. In ESO specifically, you get a progressively higher miss chance if you attack mobs above your level; player level is not so much a power gauge as it is a gating mechanism.

the lvl is appropriate to the map, a boss will have more health and heavyer hitting attacks, but he will still be the same lvl as the mob that acompanies him although this one will have alot lower health and attackpower,
I think youre more referring to the difficulty lvl of the bosses/mobs, like for instance a normal mob would have the 'normal' difficulty setting, harder enemys could be called 'elite' and bosses may be called 'epic'or something along those lines, thats how I've seen it done in other games
and btw you can see his amount of HP, that gives you an indication of how hard/easy it will be

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

the lvl is appropriate to the map, a boss will have more health and heavyer hitting attacks, but he will still be the same lvl as the mob that acompanies him although this one will have alot lower health and attackpower,
I think youre more referring to the difficulty lvl of the bosses/mobs, like for instance a normal mob would have the 'normal' difficulty setting, harder enemys could be called 'elite' and bosses may be called 'epic'or something along those lines, thats how I've seen it done in other games
and btw you can see his amount of HP, that gives you an indication of how hard/easy it will be

Yes I can see the HP...and it means nothing to me except for a large number.
What about stamina and magicka resources ? What does that mean as a comparison to me ? Has it put all his eggs is one basket ?

This is my point...I have monsters in in zoned level area. That doesn't tell me how powerful they are. Are they mudcrab powerful or troll powerful ?

I can come against a level 36 wolf and a level 36 troll.
Do you think I am going to have the same degree of difficulty attacking both ?
No ..it only tells me this is a level 36 character area....not how difficult the monsters are!

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

the lvl is appropriate to the map, a boss will have more health and heavyer hitting attacks, but he will still be the same lvl as the mob that acompanies him although this one will have alot lower health and attackpower,
I think youre more referring to the difficulty lvl of the bosses/mobs, like for instance a normal mob would have the 'normal' difficulty setting, harder enemys could be called 'elite' and bosses may be called 'epic'or something along those lines, thats how I've seen it done in other games
and btw you can see his amount of HP, that gives you an indication of how hard/easy it will be

Yes I can see the HP...and it means nothing to me except for a large number.
What about stamina and magicka resources ? What does that mean as a comparison to me ? Has it put all his eggs is one basket ?

This is my point...I have monsters in in zoned level area. That doesn't tell me how powerful they are. Are they mudcrab powerful or troll powerful ?

I can come against a level 36 wolf and a level 36 troll.
Do you think I am going to have the same degree of difficulty attacking both ?
No ..it only tells me this is a level 36 character area....not how difficult the monsters are!

I understand what your saying but you dont seem to understand me, you get a feel for monsters thoughness by experience fighting different mobs throughout the game, and watching at the health bar tells you alot, high health bar will probably mean a thougher enemy with harder hitting attacks
trolls and gargoyles will be harder to kill than a skeever, wich is kinda obvious
why would you want everything served on a plate, you want the game to tell you before the fight if hes ranged or melee (wich you can mostly tell visually too) wich special moves he does, if he likes dinner and movie before snuggeling... wheres the fun in that
and btw monters dont "put their eggs in baskets" they have standard attack and maybe a couple special heavy hitting attacks, from the monsters name, visual apperance and your experience you can mostly tell if its gonna be melee/range/stam/magica-focussed
and if your lvl appropriate you *should be able to take down any monster except maybe a worldboss/anchor for which you have to team up, although with a good build even those are soloable
really dont see the problem here

So if you was in cyrodiil and saw 5 VR12 and you was 5 level 50, you wouldn't think twice about taking them on ?
I guess not.

I don't think like that I am afraid. I like to see what I am facing before I take them on.
But if they were all simply called Vet instead of Vet 1-12 then I might have a little problem winning battles.

A wolf in bleakrock....is no where near as dangerous as a wold in eastmarch. Yet they are the same wolf.

I get your point very well....hence the vote

Look the nameplate, if we see the example given in this post, the wolf have nothing on the nameplate while the troll will have a reticule on it, usually with a small orange square on the sides indicating is "elite" monster, or dificulty increased, bosses have soms 2 squares or 3 squares to show the increse on dificult. So higer the square amount higer the dificulty.

Vegaroth wrote: »

Look the nameplate, if we see the example given in this post, the wolf have nothing on the nameplate while the troll will have a reticule on it, usually with a small orange square on the sides indicating is "elite" monster, or dificulty increased, bosses have soms 2 squares or 3 squares to show the increse on dificult. So higer the square amount higer the dificulty.

Well...its a start I suppose. But that tells me little really other than one boss is tougher than another boss. Not how tough they are compared to me (or my group).

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

All of your your stats are base + attribute multiplyer.
Those attributes come through skill level.
Be it health magicka or stamina.

I see no reason why monsters cant be rated against this same system depending on health, magicka and stamina.
Any weaponry is a red herring once those stats run out.
That's no different to sorc vs nightblade vs Templar vs DK.
All have unique weapons and abilities.

Because if sum of levels = power, 5 level 10s could group and have enough dps to do any solo endgame content.

Also, if health and damage grew accordingly, group bosses would scale dramatically out of proportion. A boss intended for 5 players can have 50+ times the health of a regular solo mob, but it can't have 50 times their damage or it would just oneshot people one after another.

Actually flawed.

If you run into a dungeon that needs scaling using character level equivalent is much simpler to cater for.

If I have a group of 7 with levels 10,15,20,25,30,35,40 for arguments sake.
Combined is level 175.
I know that a boss with stats equivalent to 175 will be a challenge for that group of 7 players, because the combined resources are the same. Its just a matter of how effectively you use the resources and luck.

Now if I was level 40 and see an level 175 monster wandering around would I take him on? Hell no ...I would drop into stealth and make a quick exit....or shout at zone...."errrm guys....little help needed here! 7 or 8 level 20 should do it"

Now as for the one shot business....well yeah level 175 is gonna be a really bad ass boss/god. Better not get shot and have that dodge/stealth working well;) But its still only going to be 3.5x more damage than a level 50. So not necessarily unbeatable.

What would be really interesting is when that level 175 boss decides to raid mournhold or similar, with 100 players reading their inventory

Yes a level 10 might simply die if he just stands there and watches the pretty incoming fireball that's about to wipe out the whole area...or he could move and get the hell out the way of his imminent instant death.

I know its gated by design... thats why all the monsters have the same meaningless inaccurate character level thats within the gated range (that simpy tells me I am in an area for level x characters). There is actually nothing stopping me from walking from bal foyen right the way up to the rift....if I so choose. I can guarantee I will have a really bad day if I enter the rift though. Of course if the monsters had meaningful ratings....I wouldn't be tempted to attack them..nor would I roam the area. But then again there might be a few animals to harvest there that are in my skill range. Maybe a few materials to collect, locks to pick, alchemy and rune stuff. Maybe even books and maps.

The quest system merely guides you to the linear locations. You are also advised to just pick up sticks and adventure to see where you end up.

So what happens to the VR content with the champion system ? When everything is level 50. What monsters are seriously hard monsters and which are just a breeze kind of monsters. All will be labelled level 50 no doubt.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

the lvl is appropriate to the map, a boss will have more health and heavyer hitting attacks, but he will still be the same lvl as the mob that acompanies him although this one will have alot lower health and attackpower,
I think youre more referring to the difficulty lvl of the bosses/mobs, like for instance a normal mob would have the 'normal' difficulty setting, harder enemys could be called 'elite' and bosses may be called 'epic'or something along those lines, thats how I've seen it done in other games
and btw you can see his amount of HP, that gives you an indication of how hard/easy it will be

Yes I can see the HP...and it means nothing to me except for a large number.
What about stamina and magicka resources ? What does that mean as a comparison to me ? Has it put all his eggs is one basket ?

This is my point...I have monsters in in zoned level area. That doesn't tell me how powerful they are. Are they mudcrab powerful or troll powerful ?

I can come against a level 36 wolf and a level 36 troll.
Do you think I am going to have the same degree of difficulty attacking both ?
No ..it only tells me this is a level 36 character area....not how difficult the monsters are!

I understand what your saying but you dont seem to understand me, you get a feel for monsters thoughness by experience fighting different mobs throughout the game, and watching at the health bar tells you alot, high health bar will probably mean a thougher enemy with harder hitting attacks
trolls and gargoyles will be harder to kill than a skeever, wich is kinda obvious
why would you want everything served on a plate, you want the game to tell you before the fight if hes ranged or melee (wich you can mostly tell visually too) wich special moves he does, if he likes dinner and movie before snuggeling... wheres the fun in that
and btw monters dont "put their eggs in baskets" they have standard attack and maybe a couple special heavy hitting attacks, from the monsters name, visual apperance and your experience you can mostly tell if its gonna be melee/range/stam/magica-focussed
and if your lvl appropriate you *should be able to take down any monster except maybe a worldboss/anchor for which you have to team up, although with a good build even those are soloable
really dont see the problem here

So if you was in cyrodiil and saw 5 VR12 and you was 5 level 50, you wouldn't think twice about taking them on ?
I guess not.

I don't think like that I am afraid. I like to see what I am facing before I take them on.
But if they were all simply called Vet instead of Vet 1-12 then I might have a little problem winning battles.

A wolf in bleakrock....is no where near as dangerous as a wold in eastmarch. Yet they are the same wolf.

I get your point very well....hence the vote

well first off, pcs (normally) play smarter as monsters, you cant compare a pve fight with a pvp fight, and a coordinated group of lvl 50 players could take out a random bunch of VR12, seen it happen before
secondly ofc 1 wolf wil be harder than the other, since the lvl of the map is different the mobs will scale with it, but fighting a lvl 5 wolf as a lvl 5 will be largly the same as fighting a VR10 wolf as a VR10 the will have the same basic attack and the same special attacks, they wil still be melee ...
sorry no I-win-button, if you charge in at an unknown enemy you will quickly figure out the mobs/boss skill/attackpattern and adapt and succeed, or die and learn from that, the game is already childishly easy because of vr nerf, you wanne make it even easyer ....

You can if you use resources....they will still burn through them as quick as you.

So you did compare level 50 vs VR12 then ? /rollseyes

So a wolf is not a wolf if it lives elsewhere ? Same as a mudcrab is not a mudcrab if you wander from bleakrock to windhelm ? This is my point. You cant tell the difference between a normal version and a super version.

Why would I want to charge in destroying armour and resources to beat a monster I know I cant beat ? Especially if the group content people want harder bosses in open play. The outcome if a forgone conclusion either way (it wont be any easier or harder knowing beforehand how tough they are). The difference is I get the choice before battle commences.

Take Mannimarco. Would I have taken him on if I could see his real stats as a character level ? Hell no I wouldn't. I would come back at level 50+ not level 40. I wiuld have also saved my self a fortune on gear repairs, pots, time and anger.

you stopped making all sense

player vs player both use resources, and if one has blown through his hes screwed, also players will react, think, improvise
a monster has a standard attack pattern, like example a couple light attacks, a special, again couple light, another special, they dont have to manage resources, they dont improvise
so that the difference
and secondly, just because you think a couple lvl 50 players vs a couple VR12 players is decided before the battle, its not

then the wolf thing
no idea what your brabbeling about
a wolf is a wolf
at lvl 5 vs a wolf lvl 5, you wil have largely the same experience as at vr10 vs a vr10 wolf
super version....? what u smoking bub?

and the mannimarco example
your perfectly well equipped to beat mannimarco at the requiered lvl (what is it a lvl 45 quest?) so at that lvl you've got all the tools to beat him, if you cant beat him at the appropiate lvl, your doing something wrong, change some skills, upgrade some gear, use some food, ...

so if u get destroyed by a equal lvl monster your doing something wrong, except maybe some worldbosses or anchor, but most of those to are soloable

really dont get what all the drama is about, its good as it is, yes you can die sometimes, thats part of the game, but you guys want to have your hands hold all the way through it seems

Zanderscotxub17_ESO wrote: »

Zenimax allows this its called

ADD-ON

Download minion, welcome to eso

Excellent. Thanks for the heads up. Much appreciated.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Azraeel wrote: »

Not really needed, you can always just attack the enemy and see for yourself. The ability to win against a boss here is not related to the level, it is related to your defensive abilities against that boss. For example, as a vampire with no fire resistance, attacking a fire mage boss would kill you faster than other types of bosses. A melee boss can be kited, if you were ranged, and might be easier than casting type of bosses. Etc...

The world bosses and group public dungeon bosses that I usually solo sometimes require of me to change some of the skills to adapt.

Thats my point....once you have attacked the enemy
I have already argued this point....re NB, Templar, Sorc and DK.
We know they all have different specialies.
We also know the same level players SHOULD be balanced.

Tell me honestly. Have you looked at 1 world boss and been able to decide if you stand a chance WITHOUT FIGHTING HIM ? Unless you can answer with a categorical yes then the current tags are useless.

answer: yes
looking at his healthbar you get a sense of his power, looking at the boss itself you get a sense of what attacks he will be using, looking at the chevrons like SirAndy mentioned above you will get a sense of how hard it will be
and again, you should be able to take on almost every enemy (except maybe a world boss here or there) solo at the equivalent lvl
you might be wrong sometimes, but you learn from that and grow
bot noooo you want your hand hold, easy mode walk through the park, newsflash, its no park, its a wildernis filled with mysterious and dangerous monsters

this might be the right game for you
hellokittyonline.com/

now please stop this nonsense, this is not an issue, there are alot of issues with the game, but this is not one of them

Rune_Relic wrote: »

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Azraeel wrote: »

Not really needed, you can always just attack the enemy and see for yourself. The ability to win against a boss here is not related to the level, it is related to your defensive abilities against that boss. For example, as a vampire with no fire resistance, attacking a fire mage boss would kill you faster than other types of bosses. A melee boss can be kited, if you were ranged, and might be easier than casting type of bosses. Etc...

The world bosses and group public dungeon bosses that I usually solo sometimes require of me to change some of the skills to adapt.

Thats my point....once you have attacked the enemy
I have already argued this point....re NB, Templar, Sorc and DK.
We know they all have different specialies.
We also know the same level players SHOULD be balanced.

Tell me honestly. Have you looked at 1 world boss and been able to decide if you stand a chance WITHOUT FIGHTING HIM ? Unless you can answer with a categorical yes then the current tags are useless.

answer: yes
looking at his healthbar you get a sense of his power, looking at the boss itself you get a sense of what attacks he will be using, looking at the chevrons like SirAndy mentioned above you will get a sense of how hard it will be
and again, you should be able to take on almost every enemy (except maybe a world boss here or there) solo at the equivalent lvl
you might be wrong sometimes, but you learn from that and grow
bot noooo you want your hand hold, easy mode walk through the park, newsflash, its no park, its a wildernis filled with mysterious and dangerous monsters

this might be the right game for you
hellokittyonline.com/

now please stop this nonsense, this is not an issue, there are alot of issues with the game, but this is not one of them

Lets cut the crap. Knowing how tough an enemy is going to be DOESN'T MAKE THE JOB ANY EASIER. So just stop spouting the rubbish. Its tedious tiresome.

Now unless you have something new and constructive to add that hasnt been put forward and answered already....PLEASE STFU! Otherwise I will be trolling your threads in the same manner you have trolled this one

I think this whole threat is a troll
totally useless discussion, there are important things they should be focussing on, this is not even an issue, but well enjoy yourself in your rainbow land full of unicorns and carebears

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Azraeel wrote: »

Not really needed, you can always just attack the enemy and see for yourself. The ability to win against a boss here is not related to the level, it is related to your defensive abilities against that boss. For example, as a vampire with no fire resistance, attacking a fire mage boss would kill you faster than other types of bosses. A melee boss can be kited, if you were ranged, and might be easier than casting type of bosses. Etc...

The world bosses and group public dungeon bosses that I usually solo sometimes require of me to change some of the skills to adapt.

Thats my point....once you have attacked the enemy
I have already argued this point....re NB, Templar, Sorc and DK.
We know they all have different specialies.
We also know the same level players SHOULD be balanced.

Tell me honestly. Have you looked at 1 world boss and been able to decide if you stand a chance WITHOUT FIGHTING HIM ? Unless you can answer with a categorical yes then the current tags are useless.

You seem to have missed my main point. My point is that there is no true level that would indicate whether you are capable of defeating a boss or not. Unless it takes into consideration your current vulnerabilities and weaknesses, and whether the boss is able to exploit them. Let's be honest, such a thing is not possible.

However, there is a way to know how "strong" a boss is by the border around the health bar of the boss. If it has 1 square at the side, then it is a basic boss who usually can be CC'd, if it had 2 squares, it is a little harder, usually done by groups unless you can tank well, and 3+ squares are those big bosses in private dungeons.