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Bow - discussion
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ArRashid✭✭✭✭Actually, half of what I proposed are just cosmetic changes or fixes, not actual buffs. And as I wrote in the end, a single change to Poison Arrow could make bow comparable to other weapons.
As for magicka vs stamina / spell power vs weapon power:
- the reason for all unbalance is that you have about 40% more weapon power than spell power (if you do not invest jewelry enchants that is), BUT the damage coefficient for weapon power is 1.9 compared to 1.0 for spells. I believe the other coefficient (max stamina vs max magicka) is equal to both. And ofc every spell has different coefficient for damage. This is just an example of SCALING from GEAR.
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- on my lvl 32 archer, I have 52 spell power and 73 weapon power (yellow lvl 26 bow)
- 52/1 = 52
- 73/1.9 =38.4
- with YELLOW bow, weapon abilities still deal less damage than class abilities without any effort at all.
- if you count even bonus from resto staff while using all-class abilities: 52*1.1= 57.2
- which means even with yellow bow, I have just about 67% effectiveness compared to spells+resto stick.
And since they insist this won't change, they should at least do something with weapon abilities. Unless they really want to force everyone into using magicka only.2 -
Kego✭✭✭✭That would mean, ZOS only has to change the 1.9 to 1.4 and change the 10% DMG of Resto Staff to 10% DMG at Heavy Attacks and a lot would be more balanced?
Well, than I think they should just do it. Can't be that much of a work.3 -
uzul77Soul ShrivenLike the guy above mentioned, bow is one of the best weapons for ranged CC, best interrupt in the game and huge huge burst potential.
Therefore, if you like to hear it or not, it is one of the top weapons for gankers in Cyrodiil. I get hit for 1500 by Lethal Arrow alone in 2Heavy5Light. Significantly increasing its damage, like you suggest, will end up with people getting one shotted all over the place.
A bow is the best weapon for short burst periods, utility and CC, all of it in safe distance. If you want long term sustained dps, pick another weapon. Other weapons dont offer the benefits of a bow. And vice versa. Having to pick different weapons for different occasions makes the game so much more interesting.Edited by uzul77 on 1 August 2014 13:402 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Therefore, if you like to hear it or not, it is one of the top weapons for gankers in Cyrodiil. I get hit for 1500 by Lethal Arrow alone in 2Heavy5Light. Significantly increasing its damage, like you suggest, will end up with people getting one shotted all over the place.
You dont need to buff burst in order to increase sustained. You can have dot stacking, proc buffs, weapon power stacking over time, etc. For example have a passive that increases bow weapon dmg by 1 with every heavy attack against one target... stacking to 20. Have poison dots stack 3-4 times. Things like that.A bow is the best weapon for short burst periods, utility and CC, all of it in safe distance. If you want long term sustained dps, pick another weapon. Other weapons dont offer the benefits of a bow. And vice versa. Having to pick different weapons for different occasions makes the game so much more interesting.
So which weapon should I pick for 1k+ sustained? Let me guess ... a staff?Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on 5 August 2014 11:34P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.1 -
CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »CapuchinSeven wrote: »Therefore, if you like to hear it or not, it is one of the top weapons for gankers in Cyrodiil. I get hit for 1500 by Lethal Arrow alone in 2Heavy5Light. Significantly increasing its damage, like you suggest, will end up with people getting one shotted all over the place.
You dont need to buff burst in order to increase sustained. You can have dot stacking, proc buffs, weapon power stacking over time, etc. For example have a passive that increases bow weapon dmg by 1 with every heavy attack against one target... stacking to 20. Have poison dots stack 3-4 times. Things like that.A bow is the best weapon for short burst periods, utility and CC, all of it in safe distance. If you want long term sustained dps, pick another weapon. Other weapons dont offer the benefits of a bow. And vice versa. Having to pick different weapons for different occasions makes the game so much more interesting.
So which weapon should I pick for 1k+ sustained? Let me guess ... a staff?
I have no idea why you're mis-quoting me dragging me back into a thread where the same 3 people who don't know how to play or actually understand where the balance issues are (reminder, the argument is lost ZOS have stated no large scale weapon buffs, instead they are focusing on stamina and other armours outside of light), pat each other on the back by clicking "awesome" on each others posts.
Hint, you're quoting someone else with my name.2 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »I have no idea why you're mis-quoting me dragging me back into a thread where the same 3 people who don't know how to play or actually understand where the balance issues are (reminder, the argument is lost ZOS have stated no large scale weapon buffs, instead they are focusing on stamina and other armours outside of light), pat each other on the back by clicking "awesome" on each others posts.
Hint, you're quoting someone else with my name.
Yes, you mentioned that in the first line of your post... Fixed.P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.0 -
Kego✭✭✭✭
Bow does not need a large scale Weapon Buff, it just need adjustments. The DoT Effect of Venom Arrow f.e. should stack up to 4 if used frequently. The second morph of Poison Arrow should be changed that the Arrow does more DMG the lower health the Target has. The current More DMG out of the DoT Effect if the target has low health is not useful cause more DMG from as good as no DMG ist still as good as no DMG.CapuchinSeven wrote: »reminder, the argument is lost ZOS have stated no large scale weapon buffs,
For passives there could be one that you get a 3/6% chance that Snipe can be used instant, but does no Crit DMG. This would push the DMG of Bow as well and would make Snipe more viable during ongoing combats, without getting to OP.
Just some ideas for buffing Bow, without making it OP.
Edited by Kego on 6 August 2014 11:082 -
CapuchinSeven wrote: »Kinda finding a lot of this crap about bow "needing a fighting chance" to be a little strange to be honest. It could use a spammer but frankly it is THE weapon to take if you want to ruin a casters day.
On the contrary of what you people believe, this game DOES have actual PvE part, you know. We don't all go to cyrondil on lvl 10 and never come back. And Venom Arrows only work on spells with actual cast time, which are like what, 3 total? Or less?
contrary to what some believe this game does have class skill you can throw in there for your pve and you dont need to get every single thing you want from a single weapon.2 -
ArRashid✭✭✭✭dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »CapuchinSeven wrote: »Kinda finding a lot of this crap about bow "needing a fighting chance" to be a little strange to be honest. It could use a spammer but frankly it is THE weapon to take if you want to ruin a casters day.
On the contrary of what you people believe, this game DOES have actual PvE part, you know. We don't all go to cyrondil on lvl 10 and never come back. And Venom Arrows only work on spells with actual cast time, which are like what, 3 total? Or less?
contrary to what some believe this game does have class skill you can throw in there for your pve and you dont need to get every single thing you want from a single weapon.
Class skills
- benefit from magicka /spell damage only, which makes them a bad match for anything but staves, which at least use magicka as well
- NB lacks skills that can be used with a bow. All skills are either too weak, or melee-range only. Not to mention we can cast like 3 of them till we completely run out of magicka
don't mix apples with pears ...
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CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭- NB lacks skills that can be used with a bow. All skills are either too weak, or melee-range only. Not to mention we can cast like 3 of them till we completely run out of magicka
L O L
http://www.esohead.com/skills/36935-siphoning-attacks
http://esohead.com/skills/34851-impale
http://esohead.com/skills/33357-mark-target
http://www.esohead.com/skills/37001-incapacitate
http://www.esohead.com/skills/25380-shadowy-disguise
http://www.esohead.com/skills/37475-manifestation-of-terror
http://www.esohead.com/skills/34835-swallow-soul
http://www.esohead.com/skills/36957-crippling-grasp
Edited by CapuchinSeven on 7 August 2014 10:411 -
Kego✭✭✭✭Melee class skills benefit from Spell DMG and Weapon Crit. Means Magicka Builds get higher base DMG and Weapon Builds more Crits.
In my Bow/Shield build I use 3 Class Skills:- Mass Hysteria - CC against Melee Attacker
- Cripling Grasp - 1.5 Sec Stun, nice DoT DMG and Snare/Speed Buff
- Impale - Finisher
- Shadowy Disguise - 100% Crit Chance (would like Dark Cloak more but as long as it is bugged...)
- Focussed Attacks - 40% Stamina Regen, Haste still bugged but since the new Softcap of Stamina Regen it is quit nice.
- Leeching Strike - Don't have to explain, right?
Stamina Skills are:- Venom Arrow
- Lethal Arrow
- Shielded Assault
- Absorb Magic
Ofc. I talk about PvP, cause PvE sucks anyway.
Edited by Kego on 7 August 2014 11:060 -
ArRashid✭✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »- NB lacks skills that can be used with a bow. All skills are either too weak, or melee-range only. Not to mention we can cast like 3 of them till we completely run out of magicka
L O L
http://www.esohead.com/skills/36935-siphoning-attacks
http://esohead.com/skills/34851-impale
http://esohead.com/skills/33357-mark-target
http://www.esohead.com/skills/37001-incapacitate
http://www.esohead.com/skills/25380-shadowy-disguise
http://www.esohead.com/skills/37475-manifestation-of-terror
http://www.esohead.com/skills/34835-swallow-soul
http://www.esohead.com/skills/36957-crippling-grasp
Siphoning Attacks - reduce your damage by 23% (when at max rank), no thanks
Impale - scales with spell power, therefore really bad damage. Currently contemplating if it's worth at least on 2nd bar which would be used under 25%.
Mark Target - entirely useless in PvE, makes you vulnerable as hell (literally can be one-shot) while providing almost no dps increase (as PvE mobs have almost no armor/resistance). The only good part is the 50% HP heal on kill, which again, is just worth in PvP, not boss fights.
Incapacitate - Ranged weapons don't benefit from attack speed at all (still hasn't been fixed since betas). Not worth a slot (and magicka) just for heavy attack increase.
Shadowy Disguise - if you were reading the first post (I assume you didn't), you'd know that EVERYTHING bow-related pulls you out of stealth in a blink of your eye. Again practically only usable while runnning away from someone in PvP, while you're not shooting and have no DoT on anyone.
Manifestation of Terror - a trap that fears enemies for 4 seconds. Again, might be okay for PvP, in PvE, not so much. Especially since you're running stamina and this would eat away half your magicka.. and I bet fear breaks on first damage dealt
Swallow Soul - is a way to say "I'm a lone wolf" (or in less nice way: ""F you all, I only take care of myself"). Most of us use Funnel Health to help others as well. Then again, Funnel Health is one of the very few usable RANGED NB spells, because it provides instant (more or less) damage (low though) while also healing you for a bit.
Crippling Grasp - another spell that spends ages inactive on your bar (if you have the nerve) to become somewhat better later. Since it won't heal you, and you need other slots for weapon abilities, it's still worse than Funnel Health. And as pure stamina, you can't afford 2 magicka abilities - you don't have enough magicka to cast them..
in the end, I end up with
Venom Arrow
Funnel Health
Magnum Shot
Focused Aim
Bombard
Soul Tether
and since bow doesn't provide a finisher (and we can agree that Impale has terrible damage as pure stamina character - about as high as my Heavy Attack lol), I took dual wield for my second bar.. since it gets very high bonuses vs low HP. Though I still have time to switch it for 2handed if I wanted, but that would mean sacrificing 1 set item for just Reverse Slash (which is the only good skill in 2handed), and that doesn't sound exactly good..0 -
CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭Siphoning Attacks - reduce your damage by 23% (when at max rank), no thanks
And that's the reason you're giving yourself problems.
Your maths is also wrong as well, damage is calculated from Stamina/Magic and Weapon/Spell power. SA reduces weapon/spell power it does not, as you say, reduce your damage by 23%, it works out to around 10% DPS loss.
Slot Flawless Dawnbreaker if it bothers you that much, and turn it off when you're in your opening stages of a fight.
You sit in a huff over a damage reduction and I'll lol all the way to the bank with a never ending flow of magic on a build with no magic points or glyphs.Impale - scales with spell power, therefore really bad damage.
I crit Impale for 800 damage with a full stamina, no points or glyphs in magic at all, build, Ambush, Soul Harvest and Impale all sit on my 2nd bar ready for surprised stun and burst in a stamina bow build. Again, you're hopeless.Incapacitate - Ranged weapons don't benefit from attack speed at all (still hasn't been fixed since betas). Not worth a slot (and magicka) just for heavy attack increase.
So use a different moprh, I'm not your baby sitter I copied and pasted skills for you because you're clearly unable to work out how to make a decent build, I don't even use Incapacitate I use Focused Attacks. There's a reason my stamina regen sits at 130 in 1.3 and yours doesn't, think a little, I'm giving you options not building you from the ground up.Swallow Soul - is a way to say... yadda yadda yadda.
OR you could just... YOU KNOW, like above, use a different morph TO BETTER SUIT YOUR BUILD!Crippling Grasp - another spell that spends ages inactive on your bar
...with a morph'd, ranged, spamable 1.5 second immobilize... you are really bad at this...(and we can agree that Impale has terrible damage as pure stamina character - about as high as my Heavy Attack lol)
No.I took dual wield for my second bar..
So take a hard target in PVE or PVP to 50% health with bow (easy in if you get the open in PVP, even easier in PVE), building ultimate to 200% if you use your bow bar properly (which I can tell from above you don't and don't understand NB passives), swap to duel wield, Ambush 500 crit stun, Soul Harvest for 1.k and Impale for 500 upward, using Whirlwind if needed, which on a single target below 40% health will crit for around 500 +. Some might prefer Flying Blade instead.
ALL of that damage on a full stamina build, with no magic points at all with Siphoning Attacks turned on.
I'm sorry to keep bashing you like this, but you don't really seem to understand your class.Edited by CapuchinSeven on 7 August 2014 13:350 -
Jaxom✭✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »
I started leveling haste for this specifically. I'm sitting at 120 Stamina regen in combat right now before this skill. I'm convinced once I get it, I can probably sustain indefinitely with this and stamina pots.
As for the gentleman above me (not Capuchin whom I've quoted), Yes, Impale may scale it's damage with magicka, but the crit is Weapon Crit. My Impale hits for 500 or so on targets below 25% in my stamina build. With my 50% crit, it pushes 800-1000 damage that I can spam 3-4 times since it has a low magicka cost. You are also neglecting that fact that having this on your bar then applies the Passive Hemorrhage. This increases bonus critical strike damage by 10% just by having an assassination ability on your bar. This will make your weapon crits do 10% damage as well.0 -
Kego✭✭✭✭Siphoning Attacks - reduce your damage by 23% (when at max rank), no thanks
You know, that you can toggle it? No one says you always have to keep it active.
Impale will anyway only used if the Target hits 25% HP and than you can spam it right away with your 60% Weapon Crit Chance.Impale - scales with spell power, therefore really bad damage. Currently contemplating if it's worth at least on 2nd bar which would be used under 25%.
Here I'm with you. that spell is in it's current state just useless.Mark Target - entirely useless in PvE, makes you vulnerable as hell (literally can be one-shot) while providing almost no dps increase (as PvE mobs have almost no armor/resistance). The only good part is the 50% HP heal on kill, which again, is just worth in PvP, not boss fights.
How about the other Morph Focussed Attack that raises you Stamina Regen in Combat for another 40%?Incapacitate - Ranged weapons don't benefit from attack speed at all (still hasn't been fixed since betas). Not worth a slot (and magicka) just for heavy attack increase.Shadowy Disguise - if you were reading the first post (I assume you didn't), you'd know that EVERYTHING bow-related pulls you out of stealth in a blink of your eye. Again practically only usable while runnning away from someone in PvP, while you're not shooting and have no DoT on anyone.
I know that but same counts for Dark Cloak and there for Shadow Disguise can still be used as opener Assist with Sneak -> Lethal Arrow -> Shadowy Disguise -> Lethal Arrow. Thats some awesome burst to begin with. But yeah after Venom Arrow it gets useless cause of it's buggyness.Manifestation of Terror - a trap that fears enemies for 4 seconds. Again, might be okay for PvP, in PvE, not so much. Especially since you're running stamina and this would eat away half your magicka.. and I bet fear breaks on first damage dealt
1. Mass Hysteria Morph is way better cause after the Fear the Enemy is snared for ~4 Seconds. And no, Fear does not break with DMG.Swallow Soul - is a way to say "I'm a lone wolf" (or in less nice way: ""F you all, I only take care of myself"). Most of us use Funnel Health to help others as well. Then again, Funnel Health is one of the very few usable RANGED NB spells, because it provides instant (more or less) damage (low though) while also healing you for a bit.
Swallow Soul is for Tanks, Funnel Health for DDs. Easy as that.Crippling Grasp - another spell that spends ages inactive on your bar (if you have the nerve) to become somewhat better later. Since it won't heal you, and you need other slots for weapon abilities, it's still worse than Funnel Health. And as pure stamina, you can't afford 2 magicka abilities - you don't have enough magicka to cast them..
It gives a nice 1.5 Sec, stun a Snare & Speed Buff and a Really nice DoT that even with a Stamina Build deals around 700 DMG in it's 8 Seconds. And seriosly, Funnel Health? For what as a Bow User? It does crapy DMG and crapy Heal as Stamina User. If I need heal I throw a Pot, activate Leeching Strikes and heal me up.
It does twice as much dmg than heavy attack, cause you can't spam Heavy Attacks. Until you made one, I already did 2-3 Impales.and since bow doesn't provide a finisher (and we can agree that Impale has terrible damage as pure stamina character - about as high as my Heavy Attack lol)
Best DPS for Low HP Mobs is 2H cause you can Impale and Execute depending on your Ressources.I took dual wield for my second bar.. since it gets very high bonuses vs low HP. Though I still have time to switch it for 2handed if I wanted, but that would mean sacrificing 1 set item for just Reverse Slash (which is the only good skill in 2handed), and that doesn't sound exactly good..
Edited by Kego on 7 August 2014 13:301 -
ArRashid✭✭✭✭/throw peas on a wall
people, you are missing my point..
1) I've made this topic to discuss BOW, not to get shouted at by PvP players (which seem to be omnipresent on forums, even in sections clearly marked as "PvE discussion")
2) I'm playing an ARCHER, that is NOT a Nightblade that happens to use bow, that's a BOWMAN that happens to be of nightblade class.
That means I use mainly BOW skills. Therefore I have exactly TWO empty places on my bar (since we can all agree volley is not worth using) - one for normal ability and one for ultimate.
I don't pretty much have a choice for ultimate, as Soul Tether is the only worthwhile choice for PvE I have access to (because Death Stroke deals about 30% bonus damage instead of listed 275% and seems to deal less damage even at 1000 ultimate than my heavy attack crits), and ONE slot for magicka ability.
Which I really don't want to use for more CC (even though I might like the powerful DoT from it), but rather use it to get self heal. F me, right?
I may, MAY switch to something else, when I'll be able to. But so far I'm almost not using assassination and shadow lines at all, so it might take a good long while to get them to 42+ to even get haste. Maybe they'll even finally fix attack speed till then.
Also, Siphoning Strikes reduce WEAPON DAMAGE, that means it not just cuts from all abilities, but also taking FULL 23% away from your light and heavy attacks. I have my experiences with it, and don't want anything with it anymore on this character.
Don't suppose you'd read this far into my posts anyway, but I'm LEVEL 38 right now. That means I don't really give a damn about single-target damage in my current build and I'm using my bow skills to lock enemies and burst them down, while self healing myself to minimize downtime (since those pesky rangers don't give a damn about immobilizes), as I'm playing ALONE.
I'm more or less happy with it as I'm able to comfortably kill even "hard" world bosses (aka those with numerous elite guards, etc - I was able to clear Lost Caravan an hour ago without Mother Sands or any of her duneripper children to even hit me once).
I'll most probably change my whole loadout when (or IF) I ever arrive into archives or god knows what else will be available till I get this char to max level..
This entire topic was made to discuss bow abilities, to point out their bugs, etc. If you have something to add, feel free to do so, but so far this topic is filled pretty much with just angry posts of PvP players sensing a change that would affect their little corner, and reacting like a cornered badger..
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CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ugh bored of you now. YOU are the person that claimed Nightblades have no class skills useful to an archer, you got proved wrong so you, yet again, move the goal posts.
This is a CLASS game, if you're not using class abilities to supplement your weapon attacks, for a less or greater amount, then you're doing it wrong.
The fact that you are level 38 and you're making this post literally makes me throw up my arms.
I'm done, enjoy sucking.1 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭Melee class skills benefit from Spell DMG and Weapon Crit. Means Magicka Builds get higher base DMG and Weapon Builds more Crits.
In my Bow/Shield build I use 3 Class Skills:- Mass Hysteria - CC against Melee Attacker
- Cripling Grasp - 1.5 Sec Stun, nice DoT DMG and Snare/Speed Buff
- Impale - Finisher
- Shadowy Disguise - 100% Crit Chance (would like Dark Cloak more but as long as it is bugged...)
- Focussed Attacks - 40% Stamina Regen, Haste still bugged but since the new Softcap of Stamina Regen it is quit nice.
- Leeching Strike - Don't have to explain, right?
Stamina Skills are:- Venom Arrow
- Lethal Arrow
- Shielded Assault
- Absorb Magic
Ofc. I talk about PvP, cause PvE sucks anyway.
Great, now not only does what ZOS very succintly states via their decisive design decisions about their care for PvE - little to nothing...PvEr's here are denigrated by those that actually can have fun!
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cazlonb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭/throw peas on a wall
people, you are missing my point..
1) I've made this topic to discuss BOW, not to get shouted at by PvP players (which seem to be omnipresent on forums, even in sections clearly marked as "PvE discussion")
2) I'm playing an ARCHER, that is NOT a Nightblade that happens to use bow, that's a BOWMAN that happens to be of nightblade class.
That means I use mainly BOW skills. Therefore I have exactly TWO empty places on my bar (since we can all agree volley is not worth using) - one for normal ability and one for ultimate.
A narrow approach like that won't work for any weapon in the game ( except maybe resto staff at the moment, which we all know will be nerfed hard in the near future ). You have to mix and match to create a strong build.
That's how the system works.2 -
nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wonder about sustained dps vs. short fight dps. In the short fight say against a small boss mob or a group of v9 to 12 mobs the bow can really get up there with the right rotation, passives and items, I personally run between 1150 and 1450 dps with my bow in that situation.
Against real bosses thing are very different, then you are happy with 700 dps and often it drops to around 600.
So the issue is not so much whether or not a stamina bow build can do damage, it is more an issue of being able to stay in the fight. The medium armor upgrades in update 2 helped a lot.
If you increase the raw damage of bows things become silly, but some kind of stamina recovery like all the many magicka recoveries in the game would help to balance things out.0 -
CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder about sustained dps vs. short fight dps.
You're right, I think this is why so many are using full light armour and full class magic attacks. It's better for sustained fights possibly.nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »If you increase the raw damage of bows things become silly, but some kind of stamina recovery like all the many magicka recoveries in the game would help to balance things out.
Agree.0 -
Jaxom✭✭✭✭nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder about sustained dps vs. short fight dps. In the short fight say against a small boss mob or a group of v9 to 12 mobs the bow can really get up there with the right rotation, passives and items, I personally run between 1150 and 1450 dps with my bow in that situation.
Against real bosses thing are very different, then you are happy with 700 dps and often it drops to around 600.
So the issue is not so much whether or not a stamina bow build can do damage, it is more an issue of being able to stay in the fight. The medium armor upgrades in update 2 helped a lot.
If you increase the raw damage of bows things become silly, but some kind of stamina recovery like all the many magicka recoveries in the game would help to balance things out.
Completely agree. Increasing bow damage would make the bow unbalanced in PvP. You can already burst someone down with Snipe (mine hit's on average for 1350 with a 50% healing debuff). Before the snipe hits, I've already fired off a Venom Arrow and Light Attack. It's certainly a thin line between underpowered PvE and Overpowered PvP. Glad I'm not a dev.0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder about sustained dps vs. short fight dps. In the short fight say against a small boss mob or a group of v9 to 12 mobs the bow can really get up there with the right rotation, passives and items, I personally run between 1150 and 1450 dps with my bow in that situation.
Against real bosses thing are very different, then you are happy with 700 dps and often it drops to around 600.
So the issue is not so much whether or not a stamina bow build can do damage, it is more an issue of being able to stay in the fight. The medium armor upgrades in update 2 helped a lot.
If you increase the raw damage of bows things become silly, but some kind of stamina recovery like all the many magicka recoveries in the game would help to balance things out.
Completely agree. Increasing bow damage would make the bow unbalanced in PvP. You can already burst someone down with Snipe (mine hit's on average for 1350 with a 50% healing debuff). Before the snipe hits, I've already fired off a Venom Arrow and Light Attack. It's certainly a thin line between underpowered PvE and Overpowered PvP. Glad I'm not a dev.
There are ways of buffing sustained damage without buffing burst.P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.0 -
ArRashid✭✭✭✭Root of our balance issues currently is the damned mechanics allowing animation canceling. If that wasn't possible, things would be MUCH easier to balance for them.
Anyway, that's just one problem. The other is that magicka is INFINITE while stamina has just 2 options - stamina regen and stamina potion. That, paired up with the fact that stamina is used for all forms of defeding, makes stamina a very poor choice for sustained damage.0 -
Jaxom✭✭✭✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder about sustained dps vs. short fight dps. In the short fight say against a small boss mob or a group of v9 to 12 mobs the bow can really get up there with the right rotation, passives and items, I personally run between 1150 and 1450 dps with my bow in that situation.
Against real bosses thing are very different, then you are happy with 700 dps and often it drops to around 600.
So the issue is not so much whether or not a stamina bow build can do damage, it is more an issue of being able to stay in the fight. The medium armor upgrades in update 2 helped a lot.
If you increase the raw damage of bows things become silly, but some kind of stamina recovery like all the many magicka recoveries in the game would help to balance things out.
Completely agree. Increasing bow damage would make the bow unbalanced in PvP. You can already burst someone down with Snipe (mine hit's on average for 1350 with a 50% healing debuff). Before the snipe hits, I've already fired off a Venom Arrow and Light Attack. It's certainly a thin line between underpowered PvE and Overpowered PvP. Glad I'm not a dev.
There are ways of buffing sustained damage without buffing burst.
In regards to the bow, how would you accomplish this?0 -
ArRashid✭✭✭✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder about sustained dps vs. short fight dps. In the short fight say against a small boss mob or a group of v9 to 12 mobs the bow can really get up there with the right rotation, passives and items, I personally run between 1150 and 1450 dps with my bow in that situation.
Against real bosses thing are very different, then you are happy with 700 dps and often it drops to around 600.
So the issue is not so much whether or not a stamina bow build can do damage, it is more an issue of being able to stay in the fight. The medium armor upgrades in update 2 helped a lot.
If you increase the raw damage of bows things become silly, but some kind of stamina recovery like all the many magicka recoveries in the game would help to balance things out.
Completely agree. Increasing bow damage would make the bow unbalanced in PvP. You can already burst someone down with Snipe (mine hit's on average for 1350 with a 50% healing debuff). Before the snipe hits, I've already fired off a Venom Arrow and Light Attack. It's certainly a thin line between underpowered PvE and Overpowered PvP. Glad I'm not a dev.
There are ways of buffing sustained damage without buffing burst.
In regards to the bow, how would you accomplish this?
There are many ways.
But they would require putting additional lines into abilities or passives:
- stamina return ability (so you don't run out of it in 10 seconds of shooting)
- proc ability, for example giving Snipe a 15% chance from heavy attack (OR any attack consuming stamina) that your next Snipe will be instant and half cheaper, pretty much like Sorcerer's Crystal Fragment)
- stackable buff (you deal few % more damage the longer the fight, up to a cap) OR finisher (increased damage on the lower the target's HP is - which both other stamina weapons already have)
- ....
but ofcourse, PvP whiners would find a reason to b***h about that anyway, so why even try..0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder about sustained dps vs. short fight dps. In the short fight say against a small boss mob or a group of v9 to 12 mobs the bow can really get up there with the right rotation, passives and items, I personally run between 1150 and 1450 dps with my bow in that situation.
Against real bosses thing are very different, then you are happy with 700 dps and often it drops to around 600.
So the issue is not so much whether or not a stamina bow build can do damage, it is more an issue of being able to stay in the fight. The medium armor upgrades in update 2 helped a lot.
If you increase the raw damage of bows things become silly, but some kind of stamina recovery like all the many magicka recoveries in the game would help to balance things out.
Completely agree. Increasing bow damage would make the bow unbalanced in PvP. You can already burst someone down with Snipe (mine hit's on average for 1350 with a 50% healing debuff). Before the snipe hits, I've already fired off a Venom Arrow and Light Attack. It's certainly a thin line between underpowered PvE and Overpowered PvP. Glad I'm not a dev.
There are ways of buffing sustained damage without buffing burst.
In regards to the bow, how would you accomplish this?
3 off the top of my head apart (they could tweak the numbers for the right effect):
1) Stackable dots: change poison injection from 'deals more dmg to low hp targets' to 'effect stacks up to 4 times' (or as many as balance requires).
2) Stacking damage buffs or debuffs: each heavy attack increases either total damage dealt or weapon dmg or skill dmg or light/heavy attack dmg (depending on how much of a buff is needed) by 1%. Stacks up to 10% (or whatever ZOS deems sufficient). If they want to limit it a bit: switching targets resets the stacks. This can be a passive or a debuff applied with a skill.
3) Procs: each light attack has 10% chance (ppm to avoid proc streaks) to apply a bleed debuff on the target dealing X dmg over Y seconds / shoot 2 arrows instead of 1 / apply vulnerability increasing poison dmg taken by 20% (synergy with suggestion 1). Passive.
Oh and 4) Haste: make this useful for bows.
You could also give light attacks a bump in damage.Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on 10 August 2014 08:53P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.0 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bow does need a finisher. the Poison from the poison arrow either needs to do more damage or be instant. not DoT. the DoT does not break my cloak as much as others, but I can see why it does for other people, and it needs to be fixed. I found arrow spray totally a waste, and volley simply did not do enough damage, and was to slow. by the time the arrows hit, the enemies will have already moved. and it sucks against stationary powerful enemies, because, again, its weak. it needs to do more damage.0 -
Marsalla✭Instead of making a pointer thread I wanted to jump in and mention that I have posted a PvE specific thread regarding the Bow Skill line and its issues. I posted over on the PTS since we have some PvE Bow balancing in this patch. I won't repost since it's long, but if anyone would like to participate in meaningful, constructive discussion on how to make the Bow competitive in ESO's PvE endgame please come over and read and post!
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/128624/the-bow-as-a-sustained-pve-end-game-single-target-dps-weapon0