Make tanking meaningful!

ArRashid · August 2014

So, while leveling Lady Lyanna, I haven't come across a single tank... don't get me wrong, there are plenty of guys running around with shields, but they categorically refuse to tank dungeons.

Up till lvl 42 I've seen no tank. I had to do all dungeons so far with 3 dps and 1 healer, or 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 hybrid.

People just see no reason to tank, if another dps does better than tank.. well, except on bosses that go on rampage..
This last group of dungeons - Volenfell, Direfrost and Tempest - we had to do with 3 dps and 1 seriously underleveled healer (lvl 24).. well, truth be told, we managed to do all 3, but we wiped more times that I cared to count..

It's hard to suggest something since on first sight there is nothing plainly wrong with tanking.. it just feels... unimportant. Heavy armor was buffed, yes, but only a tiny bit, and it's still used more for looks and for 2h specs rather than by actual tanks.

I think instead of Low Slash (which seems rather useless to me, though I might be wrong... but I never seen anyone use it) it would be nice to introduce an AoE taunt. Not the 15 second long taunt - some 5 seconds would suffice, but let it taunt 3-6 targets, so tanks actually feel they are useful in trash pulls.

Otherwise it seems best for tanks to have a dps second bar, and only actually use their shield bars for boss fights.

Right now it seems that every shield-bearer runs straight to Cyrondil, without giving tanking a second thought..

Rune_Relic · August 2014

I am trying to tank right now with a full stamina shield with 0 class skills.
If taunt fails you can shield charge and knockdown instead.
I think its more a question of experimentation on best way to tank for each type of enemy. Absorb magic can suck up magical damage quite well if you spam it carefully.

I used to get wiped in 5 seconds taking on 3 NPCs all the time, until I learned to use my shield properly. Now I am lucky if I lose 10% health.

Granted I am no expert, but I am enjoying it more and more as I try new tactics.

bosmern_ESO · August 2014

To be 100% I never tanked (I was going to back in the non vet levels but that was when re-specs cost a lot and i was poor). I plan on going through vet dungeons and eventually do trials.

I've really only done PvP though, I have a permanent over charge on my armor and it takes about 5 people to take me down (though I'm not amazing at putting out damage while defensive) and its usually because I run out of resources.

P.S. I have and alt templar that I tank on, but my V11 atm is a NB and I'm really interested in seeing how well it is.

Cody · August 2014

I have a level 25 tank.
the problem, is like you said. Tanks don't feel important, and, shame to say, they are mostly not even needed(save for some of the veteran dungeons) in PvP you don't even need to be built as a tank to tank players. just don a dress/jerkin, use reflective scales, green dragon blood, and block. you will do much better than someone in full on heavy armor, with an actual shield.(unless that person also uses the previously mentioned combination, then they will ALMOST do as well as you) tanking in this game is odd. im not saying ZOS has to follow the WoW path with it(there are of course more MMOs than WoW, but WoW is the only other I have played) but they do need to make the actual tank, the only build that can really tank. we don't need people in regular clothes taking the role of someone in full steel armor with a shield.

Hypertionb14_ESO · August 2014

if you have never had a good tank, you probably dont know what its like..

its true in this games current state however, they are mostly pointless...

ArRashid · August 2014

I've had plenty of tanks in dungeons since the betas.. but each week it seems that more shield-holders are just using it as a PvP weapon for increased survival and CC, rather than for actual tanking.

Well, I can's say I blame them, tanking kit was clearly made for PvP - as in PvE, anything you can do, the bosses are immune to it, so wtf, really.. For PvP you have reflect, massive slow, knockdown with rather lengthly stun,... for PvE, you have... BLOCK. Extra cool!

Koensol · August 2014

Im a tank and I agree tanking needs additional mechanics to help it stand out more. Example of this from other games is the guard function. Protect a certain ally by taking over 50% of the damage he takes. That damage goes through your mitogation first.

On the other hand I don't think an AoE taunt is feasable in ESO. This isn't any other mmo and having all mobs in the room on you WILL kill you. Trust me this game is not fit for letting tanks take on everything. Mitigation from armor and spell resist just sucks too much amd there is no way to survive 3 archers and a mage shooting at you while you try to face tank 2 melee. No way in hell. You can sort of controll rooms as a tank by using your AoE cc (roots/fear/kb). Sadly not every class ia as good in this department (templar+nightblade).

Rune_Relic · August 2014

Koensol wrote: »

Im a tank and I agree tanking needs additional mechanics to help it stand out more. Example of this from other games is the guard function. Protect a certain ally by taking over 50% of the damage he takes. That damage goes through your mitogation first.

On the other hand I don't think an AoE taunt is feasable in ESO. This isn't any other mmo and having all mobs in the room on you WILL kill you. Trust me this game is not fit for letting tanks take on everything. Mitigation from armor and spell resist just sucks too much amd there is no way to survive 3 archers and a mage shooting at you while you try to face tank 2 melee. No way in hell. You can sort of controll rooms as a tank by using your AoE cc (roots/fear/kb). Sadly not every class ia as good in this department (templar+nightblade).

No you cant stand while archers are taking potshots although the magic absorb helps with mages 1st strikes a lot.
I always take out he archers 1st with stealth and shield charge to give me some time. You can of course chain shield charge from archer to archer....just if you are careful.
Putting absorb magic and shield charge together can help you ping pong mage to archer. Hard part is trying to preserve the stamina long enough to do some damage and take out enemies.
This is also why I chose medium armour. I need stealth flexibility and speed over standing there and suck it up. But the shield will let you stand there and suck it up (melee wise).

Basically instead of calling all agro, you jump from enemy to enemy to distract them off of your healers and other assets with knockdowns.

Popeguard · August 2014

Tanking is currently very complicated, due to the lack of taunt mechanics.

It is true that packs of 3 mobs are tankable with experience, once you get to some other dungeons like Hircine's Haunt, where the pack's are 5 and 7 mobs it gets really complicated.

There is a lack of AOE aggro sustain and there should be.

Inner fire and it's morphs is cool as a third or forth taunt, but having a full taunt rotation creates a lack of survivability, forcing people to have one hand and shield in both bars. which means having to get one or more weapon to be able to DPS properly.

I would add one AOE taunt and the option to have the same weapons in both bars.

Xsorus · August 2014

As someone who's tanked every dungeon including all the VR dungeons, and gotten every achievement (except the Banished Cells one, that they just changed cause it wasn't working..) I can tell you a few things about tanking.

Most of the Trash in this game, You're going to be just AOEing down. The Tank has to know which Big mobs to grab in a fight to hold (Remember the way taunt works in this game is you hit the mob once, you don't have to keep hitting with taunt..Only refresh it when it runs out or is close to running out) and which mobs you can just let other people clear.

Other then that you need a Tank in the dungeons that are your level, and you will want one in the Vr12 one for sure.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · August 2014

Tanking isn't about aggro it's about control. It's about having someone to run in and get the trash clumped up, someone to debuff the heavy hitters and MAYBE taunt them off other team members. Tanking is about interrupting those pesky archer volleys, blocking the shield charge and preventing the myriad of other things that could turn a trash pull into a disaster (see heat wave, dagger throw, healers and a few others.)

A tank controls the fight in this game. They run out of range of heals to stop enemy abilities from turning the tide, they step dead in front of a shield charge to stop a wipe while your dps are tunnel visioning a healer. And most importantly they engage safely.

ArRashid · August 2014

Still doesn't change the fact that tanks feel unwelcome and unneeded.. at least till VR.

DMuehlhausen · August 2014

Tanks aren't really needed early on this is true.

The biggest reason why you struggle to find Tanks/Healers later in these types of games is the way they are treated in groups.

DPSers can be extremely rude and be causing the wipes and then go off on the tank/healer. For the same level of crappy rewards it just isn't worth it for people to want to tank/heal.

This being said I always start off as DPS in MMOs then after a couple months make my main a tank or healer. I must love being yelled at...

ArRashid · August 2014

Well.. then there are times when 80% people use resto staves (aka lvl 40+) and it's a problem to get a dps

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs · August 2014

I love tanking and in good play with me

eliisra · August 2014

Think it's hard to make a functional tank at lower levels. You dont have enough shield passives and only one taunt (unless you play DK). But you don't need a fully spec'ed tank for lowbie dungeons anyway.

I guess you never really need a traditional tank in this game. You need a dps with sword and board, some block reduction and tanking abilities for dungeons, it's how it's designed.

That's also why tanks and healers gets unnecessary badmouthing from dps'ers at lower levels. People come from other MMOs and have no clue how it works here. They assume a tank can keep aggro on everything and still be alive to tell the story, while the healer effortlessly keeps everyone at full health dishing out endless heals w/o going oom lol.

UPrime · August 2014

I think that the problem is of perception. Tanks in ESO are not that much different from regular DPS. You just need a couple specific skills. So any DPS can pick up and start tanking and be descent at it. In fact, ESO has the easiest, most stress free tanking.

But there's still the perception that tanking is hard.

Anastasia · August 2014

ArRashid wrote: »

So, while leveling Lady Lyanna, I haven't come across a single tank... don't get me wrong, there are plenty of guys running around with shields, but they categorically refuse to tank dungeons.

Up till lvl 42 I've seen no tank. I had to do all dungeons so far with 3 dps and 1 healer, or 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 hybrid.

People just see no reason to tank, if another dps does better than tank.. well, except on bosses that go on rampage..
This last group of dungeons - Volenfell, Direfrost and Tempest - we had to do with 3 dps and 1 seriously underleveled healer (lvl 24).. well, truth be told, we managed to do all 3, but we wiped more times that I cared to count..

It's hard to suggest something since on first sight there is nothing plainly wrong with tanking.. it just feels... unimportant. Heavy armor was buffed, yes, but only a tiny bit, and it's still used more for looks and for 2h specs rather than by actual tanks.

I think instead of Low Slash (which seems rather useless to me, though I might be wrong... but I never seen anyone use it) it would be nice to introduce an AoE taunt. Not the 15 second long taunt - some 5 seconds would suffice, but let it taunt 3-6 targets, so tanks actually feel they are useful in trash pulls.

Otherwise it seems best for tanks to have a dps second bar, and only actually use their shield bars for boss fights.

Right now it seems that every shield-bearer runs straight to Cyrondil, without giving tanking a second thought..

Naw ArRashid, then everybody couldn't be everything and how would all the solo-centric content be so comfy and amazing? /sarcasm

Skyhawk462 · August 2014

I have played a tank since lvl 1, so I have had a completely different experience than the original post. All the way through the pre-VR content, and even now in the VR zones, I watched groups spamming for tanks for the dungeons, which is normal...tanks are usually rare in the MMOs I have played. Its actually quite nice because you can literally pick and choose when you want to run a dungeon. But I have joined groups which started from the beginning as well as mid-through the dungeon, and those who I joined mid-through have always been glad to finally have a tank join the group. Most loose a dps and look for a tank, but often find that they have to make do with three dps. I have never heard of a group preferring to run with three dps and a healer as opposed to having a tank...but with so many people in the game it's expected that everyone's experience will be different.

The only dungeon I have run without the standard setup was Vaults of Madness, and that was because our one DPS lagged out and didn't come back until we had killed the last boss. Ran through with me as a tank and two healers, and we did fantastic, one of them even commented "Tank and two healers is OP". Had they had a DPS instead of a tank, they would have never made it because of the hard damage some of the bosses do, and I was able to taunt them to keep them focused on me to take the hard hits.

So the bottom line, tanking does exist and is still useful in ESO, but tanks and healers are always rare, usually tanks more than healers. So when you get that tank who says "I can tank" just because he's holding a sword and shield...don't waste your time. Some will do it just to get a group going and end up making it difficult for the group because they can't taunt or have the health to keep themselves alive, or try to dps instead of actually tank...you get the point. Find a good tank, add them as a friend and keep running with them.

ArRashid · August 2014

Well, that's a good thing to do.. on max level.

Take virtually any two random people who create a character at the same time, and they'll never be the same level after the first day or two. Same with anone in your friend list. That's why my ring of mara certificate is still sitting in my mailbox..(the other reason is being constantly overleveled even without it, I guess it's for those who prefer grinding or PvP for leveling..)

Nihili · August 2014

I've seen numerous tanks. I did Banished Cells with a tank who saved my life. Tanking is still pretty well-handled in the game in my opinion (just need to buff heavy armor)

Koensol · August 2014

UPrime wrote: »

I think that the problem is of perception. Tanks in ESO are not that much different from regular DPS. You just need a couple specific skills. So any DPS can pick up and start tanking and be descent at it. In fact, ESO has the easiest, most stress free tanking.

But there's still the perception that tanking is hard.

Nah.. tanking in wow is alot more easy. Just taunt and loldps away. Impossible to lose aggro. In eso you need to know when to block/dodge or move. On trash you also need to pay attention to CCing the right mobs and stopping those nasty shield charges.

Maverick827 · August 2014

ArRashid wrote: »

So, while leveling Lady Lyanna, I haven't come across a single tank... don't get me wrong, there are plenty of guys running around with shields, but they categorically refuse to tank dungeons.

Up till lvl 42 I've seen no tank. I had to do all dungeons so far with 3 dps and 1 healer, or 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 hybrid.

People just see no reason to tank, if another dps does better than tank.. well, except on bosses that go on rampage..
This last group of dungeons - Volenfell, Direfrost and Tempest - we had to do with 3 dps and 1 seriously underleveled healer (lvl 24).. well, truth be told, we managed to do all 3, but we wiped more times that I cared to count..

It's hard to suggest something since on first sight there is nothing plainly wrong with tanking.. it just feels... unimportant. Heavy armor was buffed, yes, but only a tiny bit, and it's still used more for looks and for 2h specs rather than by actual tanks.

I think instead of Low Slash (which seems rather useless to me, though I might be wrong... but I never seen anyone use it) it would be nice to introduce an AoE taunt. Not the 15 second long taunt - some 5 seconds would suffice, but let it taunt 3-6 targets, so tanks actually feel they are useful in trash pulls.

Otherwise it seems best for tanks to have a dps second bar, and only actually use their shield bars for boss fights.

Right now it seems that every shield-bearer runs straight to Cyrondil, without giving tanking a second thought..

Low Slash morphs into Deep Slash, which reduces weapon and spell damage by 15%. I haven't really done any testing on this, but theoretically it should be a decent tanking ability if mitigation is your focus. The problem is that mitigation isn't really required.

Also, an AoE taunt isn't very necessary. The tank should take on the toughest enemy or two in a trash pull and the DPS should focus on the rest. This isn't like other MMOs where trash mobs will destroy a DPS but the tank can tank on 50 of them at once. That said, a properly specced group would probably rather elect to just burn down all enemies with AoE.

Natjur · August 2014

DPS is easy, do not stand in the red.
Healing is almost as easy, don't spam and get healer aggro, do not stand in the red.

Tanking... its about controlling the pull, what you taunt, what to interrupt, and what to block and what to let the others take care of.

If EVERY mob in a 5-7 mob pull went for just the tank, the healer would have a hard time keeping him up. The tank should not have all the mobs on them, but have control of the pull. That takes a knowledge and some skill. Healing and DPS takes almost no skill.

As a templar, I try to full all three roles (dps not so well)
I find DPS easy (and in vet dungeons its ok, but for trials....)
Healing is easy if the group keeps out of the red and the tank knows the pulls
Tanking, I enjoy this as I have to be on the ball, the other roles you can do half awake.

Most people I know, who do not want to tank or heal, it is not cause its harder (which is it) but cause other people hassle them and they do not get a chance to learn the pulls. DPS (even when its their fault) seem to always blame the tank or healer and until this changes, very few people will 'volunteer' to be the tank or healer in PUG groups.

The LFG system and zone chat is almost always looking for a tank (and sometimes a healer). Its very rare you are ever looking for a DPS (except for trials as u need 8 dps, 1-2 tanks and 2-3 healers)

Azraeel · August 2014

You guys are taking tanking like your other standard average MMOs. That is wrong.

People, most probably, don't want to tank because they might be worried that they would under-perform or fail. However, the idea of tanking in this game is totally different.

Unlike other games, the tank here CAN NOT hold aggro on all of the adds, however, the tank can mass CC and taunt the heavy hitters. One handed/shield is a must while tanking in dungeon no matter what your setup is because of the reduced block cost and mitigation. Moreover, the tank could also help with supporting the whole party with buffs and shields.

It all depends on the party you are in, if it is good, lean towards more dps, if the party is having a hard time, lean towards support. This is how tanking works in this game imo.

Kego · August 2014

ArRashid wrote: »

People just see no reason to tank, if another dps does better than tank.. well, except on bosses that go on rampage..
This last group of dungeons - Volenfell, Direfrost and Tempest - we had to do with 3 dps and 1 seriously underleveled healer (lvl 24).. well, truth be told, we managed to do all 3, but we wiped more times that I cared to count..

I am Tank specced, with 5 Heavy/ 2 Medium and to be true, the time I did the dungeons you talked about, we only died once in Volenfell or Direfrost. It's the Boss where you jump of the cliff and she stands at the altar. Some how she managed to one hit me, but with the second try she died.

So, seems like tanks are meaningfull, cause I bet we managed all three Dungeons in the time you made one of them.

ArRashid · August 2014

Kego wrote: »

ArRashid wrote: »

People just see no reason to tank, if another dps does better than tank.. well, except on bosses that go on rampage..
This last group of dungeons - Volenfell, Direfrost and Tempest - we had to do with 3 dps and 1 seriously underleveled healer (lvl 24).. well, truth be told, we managed to do all 3, but we wiped more times that I cared to count..

I am Tank specced, with 5 Heavy/ 2 Medium and to be true, the time I did the dungeons you talked about, we only died once in Volenfell or Direfrost. It's the Boss where you jump of the cliff and she stands at the altar. Some how she managed to one hit me, but with the second try she died.

So, seems like tanks are meaningfull, cause I bet we managed all three Dungeons in the time you made one of them.

because, like I already said, it's getting harder and harder to FIND tanks. People rather risk countless wipes than looking for tank in zone chat for hours. Especially in Alik'r, that zone seem to be rather empty all the time.

And yes, most of our wipes happened on that boss bellow the cliff. Her nasty heavy attack hit me for over 1600 dmg each time, even though I rolled away or knocked myself away with Magnum Shot.. she simply had terrific range and because my weapon damage was highest in the group, she was also coming for me first.. and when I had to avoid her with all my attention, those exploding scamps got us instead.. just wonderful fight...

AtriasNaradan · August 2014

Koensol wrote: »

Im a tank and I agree tanking needs additional mechanics to help it stand out more. Example of this from other games is the guard function. Protect a certain ally by taking over 50% of the damage he takes. That damage goes through your mitogation first.

On the other hand I don't think an AoE taunt is feasable in ESO. This isn't any other mmo and having all mobs in the room on you WILL kill you. Trust me this game is not fit for letting tanks take on everything. Mitigation from armor and spell resist just sucks too much amd there is no way to survive 3 archers and a mage shooting at you while you try to face tank 2 melee. No way in hell. You can sort of controll rooms as a tank by using your AoE cc (roots/fear/kb). Sadly not every class ia as good in this department (templar+nightblade).

Do you have any DK? here's a tip of a good mob tanker for DK.

1. Use 1h+Board on first skill set.
2. First skill sets: Shield Charge, Circle of Protection, Green Dragon Blood, Volatile Armor, Sea of Flames, and Standard Might(Ultimate)

Now, search for mobs 4 and above, shield charge into mids of them, hold block, cast (in order): Sea of Flames, Volatile Armor, Circle of Protection. Use Dragon Blood and re-cast Volatile Armor as needed. Look at you ultimate charged like crazy, and when it's on, go cast Standard of Might. Most if not all members of mobs dead, and your magicka replenished, time to charge into another mobs.

Better yet, try go to any public dungeon, and in an open wide area with many mobs, charged into the mids of one group, and then go charged straight to second group of mobs. Do the rest like above, kill any range mobs that's not killed by Standard of Might.

The best is though, go to group dungeon and use this method on one large group of lesser mobs there. As long as there's no boss is around, standard of might will deal with most, if not all, of those pesky mobs.

Now after that, see if you can still say that having all mobs in the room will kill you.