Forward Camp

Antirob · August 2014

I know Brian and them are/were looking at a way to balance them but they have gotten out of hand. Please remove them from the game forever or atleast till you find a balanced solution to them. Currently they are ruining pvp. Also makes trans lines,small groups, big groups and ganking pointless. It reduces all pvp to zerging hardcore then "hard switching with camps"

NorthernFury · August 2014

No they're not, lol.

Anomaly 2 · August 2014

Forward camps are a essential part of Cyrodiil.. Removing them would be the imbalance to the game.

Antirob · August 2014

NorthernFury wrote: »

No they're not, lol.

Youre kidding right.

yorzo · August 2014

Remove foward camps and the amount of actually fighting will drop like crazy. 90% of keep takes would turn into player vs wall and maybe 1-2 people who are willing to ride down there. At most I would suggest a cooldown on fwc's so they cannot be spammed, but even that would result in much easier keep captures.

Enodoc · August 2014

They don't need to be removed, it just needs to be set so that you can only resurrect there if you die within their radius. Thereby, no suicide-porting.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · August 2014

The only issue with them is that they are fast travel teleporters. Suicide and then go wherever you want.
The ywould be fine by just being "respawn in radius" tools and leave the transitus network as the traveling tool.

Lava_Croft · August 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

They don't need to be removed, it just needs to be set so that you can only resurrect there if you die within their radius. Thereby, no suicide-porting.

This still is the most sane solution mentioned.

Chillic · August 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

They don't need to be removed, it just needs to be set so that you can only resurrect there if you die within their radius. Thereby, no suicide-porting.

Agreed!

Also, how about if you are the last to use the camp and it goes down, you cannot move until you place another down.

Antirob · August 2014

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

They don't need to be removed, it just needs to be set so that you can only resurrect there if you die within their radius. Thereby, no suicide-porting.

This still is the most sane solution mentioned.

You would still have the problem of people infinity respawing when defending/attacking a keep. Just need 1 guy to continually place forward camps while 20 other people just rush in/out to whittle down the enemy. It would also not fix the problem of people placing them in the middle of an open field balltle or off to the side.

Chillic · August 2014

Antirob wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

They don't need to be removed, it just needs to be set so that you can only resurrect there if you die within their radius. Thereby, no suicide-porting.

This still is the most sane solution mentioned.

You would still have the problem of people infinity respawing when defending/attacking a keep. Just need 1 guy to continually place forward camps while 20 other people just rush in/out to whittle down the enemy. It would also not fix the problem of people placing them in the middle of an open field balltle or off to the side.

I don't see this as a problem. The problem is if they can come from all over the map to help out instead of having to ride to the keep, it takes away from "they are busy there, lets attack here" strategy. If you want camps completely out of the game, this would destroy the PVP for a map of this size. I also do not see the issue of placing a camp in an open field battle. I rarely see this as usually it would be placed where it cannot be found by the enemy.

Durham · August 2014

Antirob wrote: »

I know Brian and them are/were looking at a way to balance them but they have gotten out of hand. Please remove them from the game forever or atleast till you find a balanced solution to them. Currently they are ruining pvp. Also makes trans lines,small groups, big groups and ganking pointless. It reduces all pvp to zerging hardcore then "hard switching with camps"

I think they need to never be placed inside a keep or on a tower... They should never be placed at Farms Mines or Lumber Mills... The cost of them should be increased.... They to have a perimeter to be placed around keeps... Also players that use them should have a 1 minute rez sickness... Sorry but using them should also come with a downside

I think protecting your supply lines is an aspect of this game that is missing

Ganking between keeps would surge! Yes it would creat more missery for the keep takers but it would force death to mean a little more !! This would also force more leaders to surface and take control of certian aspects of the Alliance Battles ....

Durham · August 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

They don't need to be removed, it just needs to be set so that you can only resurrect there if you die within their radius. Thereby, no suicide-porting.

better Idea forget everything i just said above

Maulkin · August 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

They don't need to be removed, it just needs to be set so that you can only resurrect there if you die within their radius. Thereby, no suicide-porting.

I don't personally like this idea. It will lead to too much steatlh (ninja) sieging and taking of keeps. Too much PvWall by avoiding defended keeps and attacking empty ones.

Say AD try to take Drakelowe Keep, 20 of them ride there. It so happens that there are 2 EP in the keep at the time. They shout in the zone for help but if they put down a forward camp the only people who can spawn there is...them 2? The others have to ride for 5+ minutes by which time the keep will be lost.

And that doesn't apply only to the faraway keeps of Brindle, Drakelowe and Dragonclaw. It also applies to your home keeps. Can you imagine two coordinated groups attacking your base keeps to open a scroll gate and the rest of your faction which is fighting around the Imperial City keeps come to help in time?

Agrippa_Invisus · August 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

They don't need to be removed, it just needs to be set so that you can only resurrect there if you die within their radius. Thereby, no suicide-porting.

I don't personally like this idea. It will lead to too much steatlh (ninja) sieging and taking of keeps. Too much PvWall by avoiding defended keeps and attacking empty ones.

Say AD try to take Drakelowe Keep, 20 of them ride there. It so happens that there are 2 EP in the keep at the time. They shout in the zone for help but if they put down a forward camp the only people who can spawn there is...them 2? The others have to ride for 5+ minutes by which time the keep will be lost.

And that doesn't apply only to the faraway keeps of Brindle, Drakelowe and Dragonclaw. It also applies to your home keeps. Can you imagine two coordinated groups attacking your base keeps to open a scroll gate and the rest of your faction which is fighting around the Imperial City keeps come to help in time?

In the Drake/Brindle/Dragon scenario you posit -- If there are 2 EP at Drake shouting a warning, shouldn't the rest of EP be able to suicide to a Gate/Keep and then use the transit system? One would assume that the two EP would have noticed the siege before the wall reached 50%.

At the same time, Zenimax may want to make it so transit doesn't cut until the outer wall falls entirely.

Maulkin · August 2014

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

They don't need to be removed, it just needs to be set so that you can only resurrect there if you die within their radius. Thereby, no suicide-porting.

I don't personally like this idea. It will lead to too much steatlh (ninja) sieging and taking of keeps. Too much PvWall by avoiding defended keeps and attacking empty ones.

Say AD try to take Drakelowe Keep, 20 of them ride there. It so happens that there are 2 EP in the keep at the time. They shout in the zone for help but if they put down a forward camp the only people who can spawn there is...them 2? The others have to ride for 5+ minutes by which time the keep will be lost.

And that doesn't apply only to the faraway keeps of Brindle, Drakelowe and Dragonclaw. It also applies to your home keeps. Can you imagine two coordinated groups attacking your base keeps to open a scroll gate and the rest of your faction which is fighting around the Imperial City keeps come to help in time?

In the Drake/Brindle/Dragon scenario you posit -- If there are 2 EP at Drake shouting a warning, shouldn't the rest of EP be able to suicide to a Gate/Keep and then use the transit system? One would assume that the two EP would have noticed the siege before the wall reached 50%.

At the same time, Zenimax may want to make it so transit doesn't cut until the outer wall falls entirely.

Evidence shows that what you propose doesn't work.

With 20 dominion/pact/covenant ballistas up before you start firing, you can take the outer walls from 100% to 0% in under 60 secs. Or below the 50% teleport threshold in under 30 secs. That leaves no reaction time as the other faction players have to
a) notice the siege
b) type something in the zone chat
c) the others have to notice it in the zone chat
d) they have to get to a wayshrine to teleport

All that takes way more than 30 secs and even with forward camps keeps are sometimes lost completely before you even have time to react. That's not healthy

If you suggest that players can TP until the outer wall is completely down or the inner wall is below 50% then all the gankers will be up in uproar as that will give them even less opportunity to cut supply lines.

The fact remains that the map is too big. If you cut the ability to teleport or use camps, people won't even bother going to defend as they will invariably arrive too late. That will lead to the PvWall scenario I described

Enodoc · August 2014

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

They don't need to be removed, it just needs to be set so that you can only resurrect there if you die within their radius. Thereby, no suicide-porting.

I don't personally like this idea. It will lead to too much steatlh (ninja) sieging and taking of keeps. Too much PvWall by avoiding defended keeps and attacking empty ones.

Say AD try to take Drakelowe Keep, 20 of them ride there. It so happens that there are 2 EP in the keep at the time. They shout in the zone for help but if they put down a forward camp the only people who can spawn there is...them 2? The others have to ride for 5+ minutes by which time the keep will be lost.

And that doesn't apply only to the faraway keeps of Brindle, Drakelowe and Dragonclaw. It also applies to your home keeps. Can you imagine two coordinated groups attacking your base keeps to open a scroll gate and the rest of your faction which is fighting around the Imperial City keeps come to help in time?

In the Drake/Brindle/Dragon scenario you posit -- If there are 2 EP at Drake shouting a warning, shouldn't the rest of EP be able to suicide to a Gate/Keep and then use the transit system? One would assume that the two EP would have noticed the siege before the wall reached 50%.

At the same time, Zenimax may want to make it so transit doesn't cut until the outer wall falls entirely.

Indeed. As Agrippa_Invisus says, defence of a keep can be maintained by tweaking the warning-to-transit ratio of outer wall integrity based on number of resources controlled (Sasky's idea), and buffing the health of outer walls. They fall too quickly at the moment anyway. With these two changes, forward camps wouldn't be needed to get to the keep in time.

This below was originally posted by @Sasky. I've tweaked the numbers a bit.

Example (large swings to illustrate - obviously could be tuned down a bit):
3 resources - keep under attack at 90%, transit in stops at 0%
2 resources - keep under attack at 90%, transit in stops at 30%
1 resource - keep under attack at 70%, transit in stops at 50%
0 resources - keep under attack at 70%, transit in unavailable (as all resources are taken)

Agrippa_Invisus · August 2014

The other options I've mentioned before in regards to making siege warfare more about fighting players over objectives than ninjaing nodes is --

1. Increase the HPs of walls/doors (or reduce damage from siege) with the HP of walls going up considerably more than doors (giving a good reason to go through them).
2. Substantially reduce NPC power. Especially archer/mages. Make it so that a group of 8 (of average skill) can fairly easily wipe the keep out of NPCs.
3. Modify the Flag/Transport percentages such as suggested by Enodoc.

This leaves you with keeps/outposts that are tougher, more resilient to damage, but can be taken if players don't intervene. This extends the 'flagged to lost' time considerably and even extends the time it takes to flag it. The change in when the keep flags will allow players more time to get there to fight.

Keep fights should be desperate battles between players, not about who can click right mouse the most or AE guards down quickly.

Kewljag_66_ESO · August 2014

Antirob wrote: »

I know Brian and them are/were looking at a way to balance them but they have gotten out of hand. Please remove them from the game forever or atleast till you find a balanced solution to them. Currently they are ruining pvp. Also makes trans lines,small groups, big groups and ganking pointless. It reduces all pvp to zerging hardcore then "hard switching with camps"

I didnt see this thread and made my own but i think you would really like what i say and my ideas to fix it.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/126567/forward-camp-changes-ideas-to-improve-siege-warfare#latest

Antirob · August 2014

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

Antirob wrote: »

I know Brian and them are/were looking at a way to balance them but they have gotten out of hand. Please remove them from the game forever or atleast till you find a balanced solution to them. Currently they are ruining pvp. Also makes trans lines,small groups, big groups and ganking pointless. It reduces all pvp to zerging hardcore then "hard switching with camps"

I didnt see this thread and made my own but i think you would really like what i say and my ideas to fix it.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/126567/forward-camp-changes-ideas-to-improve-siege-warfare#latest

Like your idea about only being able to place them at forward camps. But now it gives the attackers infinite respawns.

Antirob · August 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

They don't need to be removed, it just needs to be set so that you can only resurrect there if you die within their radius. Thereby, no suicide-porting.

I don't personally like this idea. It will lead to too much steatlh (ninja) sieging and taking of keeps. Too much PvWall by avoiding defended keeps and attacking empty ones.

Say AD try to take Drakelowe Keep, 20 of them ride there. It so happens that there are 2 EP in the keep at the time. They shout in the zone for help but if they put down a forward camp the only people who can spawn there is...them 2? The others have to ride for 5+ minutes by which time the keep will be lost.

And that doesn't apply only to the faraway keeps of Brindle, Drakelowe and Dragonclaw. It also applies to your home keeps. Can you imagine two coordinated groups attacking your base keeps to open a scroll gate and the rest of your faction which is fighting around the Imperial City keeps come to help in time?

In the Drake/Brindle/Dragon scenario you posit -- If there are 2 EP at Drake shouting a warning, shouldn't the rest of EP be able to suicide to a Gate/Keep and then use the transit system? One would assume that the two EP would have noticed the siege before the wall reached 50%.

At the same time, Zenimax may want to make it so transit doesn't cut until the outer wall falls entirely.

Evidence shows that what you propose doesn't work.

With 20 dominion/pact/covenant ballistas up before you start firing, you can take the outer walls from 100% to 0% in under 60 secs. Or below the 50% teleport threshold in under 30 secs. That leaves no reaction time as the other faction players have to
a) notice the siege
b) type something in the zone chat
c) the others have to notice it in the zone chat
d) they have to get to a wayshrine to teleport

All that takes way more than 30 secs and even with forward camps keeps are sometimes lost completely before you even have time to react. That's not healthy

If you suggest that players can TP until the outer wall is completely down or the inner wall is below 50% then all the gankers will be up in uproar as that will give them even less opportunity to cut supply lines.

The fact remains that the map is too big. If you cut the ability to teleport or use camps, people won't even bother going to defend as they will invariably arrive too late. That will lead to the PvWall scenario I described

I disagree with you about how the map is too big. With the trans lines you teleport to any keep your faction owns (or by getting killed and respawning there) the problem with camps is that it provides a near infinite respawn point for attackers and defenders.

NorthernFury · August 2014

Antirob wrote: »

NorthernFury wrote: »

No they're not, lol.

Youre kidding right.

Not kidding at all. Removing forward camps would turn Cyrodiil into a yawn-fest, much like watching a soccer game, the golf channel, or grass grow.

People would just gate-camp with their zergs

dbishop · August 2014

Just go find them and torch them. It's not like you can hide them anywhere.

Antirob · August 2014

dbishop wrote: »

Just go find them and torch them. It's not like you can hide them anywhere.

You cant torch them when they are instantly used and another one is placed somewhere else to be used up again.

Enodoc · August 2014

Antirob wrote: »

dbishop wrote: »

Just go find them and torch them. It's not like you can hide them anywhere.

You cant torch them when they are instantly used and another one is placed somewhere else to be used up again.

There really needs to be a cooldown. Say, for example, no new Forward Camp within the radius of a used-up Forward Camp for 60 seconds. No new Forward Camp within the radius of a burned-down Forward Camp for 3 minutes.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · August 2014

A cooldown isn't really appropriate to ESO. Even the combat has no cooldowns but uses resource management.

Forward camps already come at a hefty cost and don't bring anything back, so there is attrition going on there.

The real issue is the "teleport from anywhere". A smaller radius and no possibility to respawn there after death outsideof it would go a long way to improve the game.

dbishop · August 2014

Antirob wrote: »

dbishop wrote: »

Just go find them and torch them. It's not like you can hide them anywhere.

You cant torch them when they are instantly used and another one is placed somewhere else to be used up again.

Keep on burning them. Disrupt the flow of players. Repair the walls. Attack fades and counter attack begins.

If however you could place multiple FCs around a Keep I would change my mind but the radius around a single FC is so huge the attack can be pretty quickly stopped and pushed back.

Jaxom · August 2014

The problem is, as others have mentioned, the time it takes to burn walls down with a coordinated group is 60s or less. You can attack the outer and inner to 51% with no warning. By the time the map updates, most times the enemy is already on the flag. Forward Camps give the defenders the opportunity for a last ditch effort to come in and wipe from behind.

Like many things with Cyrodiil, my guess is ZOS did not foresee the amount of Forward Camp spamming and suiciding to get around the transitus system. I do like the idea of making it so you can only spawn within the radius of the Forward Camp, though if they make that change, they need to adjust the time it takes to take a keep.

I'm not sure if there is a way to scale the Keep's HP based on population, but I think that would be a fair solution. If you are at 1 bar, then the keep HP is what it is today. This is so we arent balancing the campaigns based on 1 locked server as it wouldnt necessarily apply to the less populated ones. As the population increases and you go to 2 bars-> 3 bars-> locked, the HP of keep walls and doors scale proportionally making it more difficult to take.

Another change they would need to make if they only allowed you to spawn within the FC radius is to allow defenders to transitus until the outer wall is down. The Map can show the keep under attack once it hits 49% but this will give you those needed seconds to rush to the keep before the wall goes down. This will balance the fact that you can no longer use a FC from across the map.

/my 2 cents

JamilaRaj · August 2014

Anomaly 2 wrote: »

Forward camps are a essential part of Cyrodiil.. Removing them would be the imbalance to the game.

Comparing with pre-fix era, when forward camps were unsuable often as soon as set up, current state is (or rather gradually turned up to be) imo worse, for tents being abused for fast travel and inducing sort of zombie behaviour, with players attacking in mindless waves while relying on tents popping up over and over.
Tents at least should be available only for the dead within their action radius, if not making that radius smaller on top of that.
So yay to the proposal of temporary removing them untill fixed.

Animal_Mother · August 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

Antirob wrote: »

dbishop wrote: »

Just go find them and torch them. It's not like you can hide them anywhere.

You cant torch them when they are instantly used and another one is placed somewhere else to be used up again.

There really needs to be a cooldown. Say, for example, no new Forward Camp within the radius of a used-up Forward Camp for 60 seconds. No new Forward Camp within the radius of a burned-down Forward Camp for 3 minutes.

Cooldowns will just result in even more instant 20-man floods the moment camps are put up again making them even tougher for attackers or defenders to counter.

rich.magab14a_ESO · August 2014

Dumbest thread to date. Forward camps cant be called an unbalance to the game because everyone can employ the same tactics. You're mad because the enemy laid down a bunch of forward camps and wiped you? you shouldnt be mad at forward camps, you should be mad that yourself or your group for not laying down forward camps also. And no Forward camps are not instant transport, someone has to travel to lay them down near a keep or where ever. They have to run the risk of gankers and running into another enemy groups while finding a spot to lay it down. Also you cant just lay a forward camp down any where either there is always a condition of terrain and space along with other forward camp areas overlapping. And here is an idea you want enemies to stop pouring out of camps but cant get near the camp, put down a fire ballista and aim it at the camp. People cant spawn at a camp if it's under attack. Yes there are things that need to be fixed, F_camps arent one of them. To many people have the mentality that they should always win and if they lose it should be by a small margin. I can understand gripes about differences in classes at times. But it seems like some of you just want to ruin the game just so you can boost your ego.