Strangely, it actually feels like stamina builds are better with the 1.3 changes...

Hypertionb14_ESO · July 2014

At least with a AOE Night Blade

i created 2 characters, both Night Blades

both use a AOE build but one uses Light armor and magicka focus and the other uses medium and stamina focus.

Both use Dual Weild for steel tornado, Power Extraction, Siphoning Attacks for endless aoe spam. Using a staff on the mage one would only weaken the build since the addtional AOE that uses stam is better as a backup to power extraction than using Impulse and getting lower ultimate generation. also the mage version easily runs out of magicka and without the Stam AOE becomes a sitting duck.

On my mage its mostly spam of Power Extraction for damage, hitting 300+ on crits on up to 9 targets, if MP gets low i pop out a few steel tornados... Inner light and Mirage are used as well.

On the Rogue, Its mostly Steel Tornado spam, using Power Extraction at the start of fights purely for the damage boost and on the rare times i run out of stam.. Steel tornado seems to hit around 300 on 100% enemies... and i have seen over 1k damage on low HP enemies in these tests. Elude and Ambush are used as well.

In both situations i am blocking the entire fight. even when Steel Tornado is the primary spam, Siphoning attacks keeps the Stam up. Additionally the Ultimate of choice is Soul Tether, due to How easily these aoe spams can get ultimate allowing the stun effect to stunlock enemies and the powerful (likley bugged on PTS atm) heal which is hitting up to 1.7k per tick amazingly (seems directly releated to the weapon damage boost from power extraction if anyone else wants to experiment and confirm)

Amazingly its the Rogue that seems to do better damage have has better durability it seems.. Holding 2k+ easily vs groups and taking little damage in return thanks to Eludes effectiveness. Ambush is also very nice to open up from stealth for the armor bonus, and it gives me a few seconds to pop out the starting ultimate and power extraction.

i am actually having lots more fun with the stam version Night Blade currently than i am the Magi version. I just might have to switch my Live NB back to stam when this update hits!

Jaxom · July 2014

Which stamina sets were you considering getting? Hundings Rage 5 piece of Torug Pact 3?

Axer · July 2014

Um no, using duel wield is not a mage.

If you think it's somehow better to duel wield on a magicka build, your rather confused.

Impulse is insanely powerful spell, and the highest ultimate gain in the game.

And even if you aren't smart enough to go destro, resto is also a dps boost.

And 2k aoe damage is pretty bad. High dps means 3k+ AoE on a NB vs 6+ targets.

Especially considering this patch should be a massive boost to both build types, with the softcaps being raised a ton.

I imagine this should at least allow stamina builds to be "viable" - in the sense they will pass the dps checks in the trials.. But imo without more severe changes, they will still be severely behind magicka builds.

Plus still a massive detriment to use in any kind of fight where you at serious risk of death, so using stamina for defensive purposes is more key. (Stam builds need not try the warrior fight in hel ra)

So yes your OP title is right - they are better, a lot better with the higher caps and stronger gear. But so are magicka builds. The balance doesn't change.

Snit · July 2014

It wouldn't be the first time an MMO over-corrected. We'll see.

I think virtually everyone wants stamina- or magicka-based builds to be approximately equal in all phases of the game. Happily, it appears that ZOS is heading in that direction with some urgency.

Snit · July 2014

Axer wrote: »

And 2k aoe damage is pretty bad. High dps means 3k+ AoE on a NB vs 6+ targets.

You are declaring his AoE DPS insufficient, without knowing how many targets he is hitting or what quality gear he uses. That seems to be just a bit premature.

Hypertionb14_ESO · July 2014

Impulse can easily do 500 per mob on crits.. 3k at max of 6

Steel Tornado can easily do 350-1k per mob on crits 2--6k at max of 6

Power Extraction easily does 300-350 per mob on crits and has a 9 target hit limit, addtional 2 ultmiate per hit thanks to passives. 2.7k on the 9 target limit and an additonal 16 ultimate.

Both steel tornado and Impulse have a Hard target limit of 6, steel tornado has a much bigger radius. Ultimate gains from damage are the same between them

Impulse is far from the end all option... Power Extraction has much better ultimate gain for more ultimate use.. and can hit reasonably hard

both are using not damage bonus gear, and not fighting targets that evil hunter can affect, just the trials gear sets you get from the Template, neither has any stone effects, so both have crit rates that are not above 50% in fact the crit rates on the stam build are still lower than the magicka build.

Finally on this build, hitting more targets = more procs from Siphoning attacks... so the 3 extra targets from Power Extraction nearly mean 100% chance to restore 15% mp+sp. Resources are a non issue...

Axer wrote: »

Um no, using duel wield is not a mage.

If you think it's somehow better to duel wield on a magicka build, your rather confused.

Impulse is insanely powerful spell, and the highest ultimate gain in the game.

And even if you aren't smart enough to go destro, resto is also a dps boost.

And 2k aoe damage is pretty bad. High dps means 3k+ AoE on a NB vs 6+ targets.

Especially considering this patch should be a massive boost to both build types, with the softcaps being raised a ton.

I imagine this should at least allow stamina builds to be "viable" - in the sense they will pass the dps checks in the trials.. But imo without more severe changes, they will still be severely behind magicka builds.

Plus still a massive detriment to use in any kind of fight where you at serious risk of death, so using stamina for defensive purposes is more key. (Stam builds need not try the warrior fight in hel ra)

So yes your OP title is right - they are better, a lot better with the higher caps and stronger gear. But so are magicka builds. The balance doesn't change.

Very narrow Minded...

demonlkojipub19_ESO · July 2014

The real thing they need to do is create a different resource for dodge/block/etc... Then we can call it balanced. Unless they want to put half the cost into magica as well.

I still make myself easier to kill with each weaponskill.

Hypertionb14_ESO · July 2014

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

The real thing they need to do is create a different resource for dodge/block/etc... Then we can call it balanced. Unless they want to put half the cost into magica as well.

I still make myself easier to kill with each weaponskill.

ya... as long as skills can use stamina, the old TES system of using stam for blocking and such wont work as well..

Hypertionb14_ESO · July 2014

Btw.. part of why it works is because Soul Tether spam = AOE stunlock, meaning i am not losing much stam due to blocking attacks.. in fact generally i dont lose more stam and MP than i gain via spamming. This in addtion to the dodge gained from Elude which is greater than Mirage and effects both melee and ranged means i avoid most of the incoming damage^^

If i switch to Veil of blades which again thanks to spam i can keep up INDEFINITLY i boost my DPS potential on both builds by 1.2k

Soul Tether des 600-1k per target instantly tho in addition to the stun and heal. Its a FAR better option for soloing groups.

Axer · July 2014

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Very narrow Minded...

I'm probably one of the most opended minded, pro stamina build guys onthe forum.

I made a huge extensive post about how bad two handed is and how to buff it months ago. Really wanted it to work well, but it simply can't.

I almost never play mages in any mmo, vastly prefer melee, and I play the one class that actually has semi viable melee (since its magicka based) - templar (biting jabs).

I mean look at my name for crying out loud. It sure isn't Destrostaffer or Healer.

After that I extensively tried duel wield too, and came to the same conclusion.

I lead a guild thats focused on getting the best trial times. We simply can't even consider a stamina build due to the horrible game balanced.

And we really want to. Have plenty of great nightblades that really want to play duel wield, and tried every which way to make it happen.

So like I said, the pathc should at least allow duel wield to have some chance at completing the raids, (without being carried).

But they still won't have any place in my guild, or any other that wants to top the leaderboards.

Simple facts that won't change without massive changes to the game. I'm just being realistic, so the devs don't read this thread and go "oh look we fixed it, nothing more needs to be done"

More needs to be done.

Melee/Stamina dps should be the #1, not ranged/magick.

Oberon · July 2014

Poor sustainable single target damage for boss kills is what is currently keeping stamina builds out of raid groups. Has that improved enough to change this?

Hypertionb14_ESO · July 2014

you came into a topic pointing out that i have been enjoying a stamina builds power for the first time since early lvl 10 and so with the comment "its still no good" and "thats not a mage". I have seen people argue that the stamina setup i used is effectively "still a spell caster since 3/5 abilitys are magic". You got called out on the comment that simply due to the fact i was using and prefer DW on what is otherwise your typical spell spammer build it is not a "legitimate Mage build". Finally in response you make one of the most contradictory posts i have ever seen "I support stam but would never accept one until its the best option"

"Your doing it wrong" posts never result in constructive conversation...

the goal isnt to make one better than the other.. its to make them relatively even, otherwise The opposite of the current system is going to be the problem..

Yes its still not there, But these changes honestly feel like a massive improvement to me.

Oberon wrote: »

Poor sustainable single target damage for boss kills is what is currently keeping stamina builds out of raid groups. Has that improved enough to change this?

No... Whirlwind is still pretty much the only exception to the otherwise weakness of Stam moves... save maybe silver shards.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · July 2014

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

The real thing they need to do is create a different resource for dodge/block/etc... Then we can call it balanced. Unless they want to put half the cost into magica as well.

I still make myself easier to kill with each weaponskill.

ya... as long as skills can use stamina, the old TES system of using stam for blocking and such wont work as well..

Yea, A single player system not working for an MMO. Fancy that.

Unlike Single player games, you have to balance one way of doing things with the other way of doing things someone right next to you is doing. In Skyrim, NO ONE ELSE is capitalizing on you using your stamina resource to attack. In fact in skyrim unless you modded it stamina and weapon attacks were better than magicka attacks. Maybe we should do it the skyrim way and nerf magicka into lol land while weapon attacks can just 1-shot things ey?

Magicka heavy builds get to save their stamina for getting away, while those using stamina to attack constantly reduce that ability. That is unbalanced and forever hurts any stamina build until it changes.

Reremnu · July 2014

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Magicka heavy builds get to save their stamina for getting away, while those using stamina to attack constantly reduce that ability. That is unbalanced and forever hurts any stamina build until it changes.

Bolt Escape, Shadow Cloak, Mist Form <- Magicka based escape skills

demonlkojipub19_ESO · July 2014

Reremnu wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Magicka heavy builds get to save their stamina for getting away, while those using stamina to attack constantly reduce that ability. That is unbalanced and forever hurts any stamina build until it changes.

Bolt Escape, Shadow Cloak, Mist Form <- Magicka based escape skills

Not everyone has access to those, they take slots on skill bars, and they are optional additions to mandatory stamina drains of blocking, dodging, and CC breaking. Roll dodging alone costs a ton, and doesn't even get you as far as those optional skills.

rashkosh127ub17_ESO · July 2014

I have tested this rather extensively being a NB that originally wanted to focus on a stam build. While a stam build in terms of AOE has become increasingly more competitive with this patch, it still does not surpass destro AOE. The AOE is sufficient enough to do trials, but if you are looking for maximum AOE dps, destro is still the way to go. As far as single target goes I was not able to build a single target stam build that was able to put up anywhere close to the dps that the new magicka builds were able to. By all means, the stam builds WILL be able to put out enough dps now to complete the trials, but they are still inferior in plenty of ways.

dtere1_ESO · July 2014

Why do you need to be a nightblade to do a stamina build?

Here my thoughts... cause i'd like some input.

Imperial Sorceress Stam Build
1.) Critical Surge
2.) Whirling Blades or Steel Tornado... leaning Steel Tornado
3.) Silver Bolts
4.) Bound Armaments (8% increased heavy damage + Armor for leveling)
5.) <up for debate>
U.) Batswarm or Overload

Benefits of this build:
- Critical Surge and Steel Tornado work very well together.
- Duel wield allows crit% to increase substantially
- Hunding's Rage (1.3.0) set will give +8% crit and 24 dmg

Drawbacks:
- Low magic Resist
- How to rebuild stamina quickly

Anyone have some thoughts on this build? I think it can out-dps the NB class easily for AOE damage. It also has the benefit of hardcore self healing and potentially more damage than magicka based sorceress using Breton or other.

With the stat changes, imperial bonuses of +12% hp and +10% stamina are going to be huge. That, on top of weapon damage stat increasing +9, combined with critical surge increase should put you over limit of weapon damage and imperial +10% should put you close if not over stamina max.

Aeratus · July 2014

Sorc has always had pretty good DW. However, NBs can:

(1) gain +99% weapon damage for 20 seconds using power extraction (although in practice, only around 60% since there won't always be 9 mobs around you to extract from),

(2) slot skills in the assassination tree to increase crit;

(3) use siphoning attacks + whirling blades for nearly unlimited stamina regeneration. While Sorc can attain a high burst damage, Sorc can't sustain stamina as well as NB can. Also, NB has a stamina regen passive.

Xnemesis · July 2014

Jaxom wrote: »

Which stamina sets were you considering getting? Hundings Rage 5 piece of Torug Pact 3?

I am going to get a hundings rage 5 piece and 2 ashen grip... should be a great combo with the weapon damage cap increase

demonlkojipub19_ESO · July 2014

Xnemesis wrote: »

Jaxom wrote: »

Which stamina sets were you considering getting? Hundings Rage 5 piece of Torug Pact 3?

I am going to get a hundings rage 5 piece and 2 ashen grip... should be a great combo with the weapon damage cap increase

I was going to do the same thing, but ashes 3 set!

If you dual wield you can get hundings 5 and ashen 4 and it would be even better.

Jaxom · July 2014

Xnemesis wrote: »

Jaxom wrote: »

Which stamina sets were you considering getting? Hundings Rage 5 piece of Torug Pact 3?

I am going to get a hundings rage 5 piece and 2 ashen grip... should be a great combo with the weapon damage cap increase

Yeah. Actually looking back at my response, I meant Ashen's grup. Torug's Pact is for Spell damage. On Hundings Rage, Does anyone know what the 5 set piece actually does? It says Increases Weapon Power by 24 but thats not the same as Weapon Damage. What exactly is Weapon Power vs Weapon Damage?

demonlkojipub19_ESO · July 2014

I think increasing weapon power by 24 is better than increasing weapon damage by 24, by what degree I don't know. I do know that when I used wrecking blow, which gave the next attack +50 weapon power, its gave a pretty decent boost. All I know is adding 21 weapon damage does very little for our weapon skills.

Im pretty sure somewhere out there theres somewhere who has damage calculations all done out.

The new hundings rage will also affect light and heavy attacks too, not just weapon skills.

Jaxom · July 2014

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

I think increasing weapon power by 24 is better than increasing weapon damage by 24, by what degree I don't know. I do know that when I used wrecking blow, which gave the next attack +50 weapon power, its gave a pretty decent boost. All I know is adding 21 weapon damage does very little for our weapon skills.

Im pretty sure somewhere out there theres somewhere who has damage calculations all done out.

The new hundings rage will also affect light and heavy attacks too, not just weapon skills.

Thanks!