Melee should out dps Range - Pve 101

Mykah · July 2014

Risk vs Reward. Pretty simple stuff here. In every situation 2hand and Duel Wield should be out dpsing Destro and Resto staff. Why? Because they require melee range to land attacks.

Im fairly confident in saying you devs in this game are not elite melee players, the imbalances between light armor and medium armor alone tell me all I need to know about your preferred playstyles.

To balance your game you MUST increase the raw damage of melee beyond that of ranged to compensate the inherrent difficulty of staying in melee range to dps. In the game's current state Destro/Resto out dpses 2h/DW while also being easier to use, this is the opposite of risk reward, it is poor game design.

Wake up guys.

someuser · July 2014

Don't forget, most ranged options include light/medium armor which has to also be taken into account.

If melee is to be buffed, I'm fine with that (they do need it). But if you buff it, you also have to take into consideration survivability or the pendulum just swings to the other side.

Food for thought

Maleficus · July 2014

I will split your wig with my 2 handed axe....

Emperor · July 2014

someuser wrote: »

Don't forget, most ranged options include light/medium armor which has to also be taken into account.

If melee is to be buffed, I'm fine with that (they do need it). But if you buff it, you also have to take into consideration survivability or the pendulum just swings to the other side.

Food for thought

This ^

It's not as simple as it was in old games when melee classes did more damage than range classes because melee classes took more damage while range classes could hide while attacking.

Now adays the range classes are squishy which makes up for the fact that they can kite things. IMO they should both do about the same DPS.

Mykah · July 2014

Range classes arent squishy in this game. There is simply no excuse for this very basic flaw in game design.

BBSooner · July 2014

While I agree, they also need to weigh in that all classes has some sort of gap closer - some better than others - but a gap closer just the same. Again though, I agree, a melee and ranged given optimum builds should have the melee winning the dps race.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · July 2014

Mykah wrote: »

Im fairly confident in saying you devs in this game are not elite melee players

And you are?

NorthernFury · July 2014

Mykah wrote: »

Risk vs Reward. Pretty simple stuff here. In every situation 2hand and Duel Wield should be out dpsing Destro and Resto staff. Why? Because they require melee range to land attacks.

Im fairly confident in saying you devs in this game are not elite melee players, the imbalances between light armor and medium armor alone tell me all I need to know about your preferred playstyles.

To balance your game you MUST increase the raw damage of melee beyond that of ranged to compensate the inherrent difficulty of staying in melee range to dps. In the game's current state Destro/Resto out dpses 2h/DW while also being easier to use, this is the opposite of risk reward, it is poor game design.

Wake up guys.

Agree with you 100%. I would also speculate that many melee builds are not even adequately tested. All the videos I have seen of in-house (testers and devs) is overwhelmingly dress-and-stick wearers.

I play one of each (Vet Melee 2H DPS and Ranged magicka DPS) and I have noted that boss mechanics in dungeon content are extremely over-the-top punishing to melee.

SFBryan18 · July 2014

Don't ranged attacks give more time to block or dodge?

NorthernFury · July 2014

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Don't ranged attacks give more time to block or dodge?

Being at range gives you more time to block or dodge (boss and mob attacks) as well.

Mykah · July 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Mykah wrote: »

Im fairly confident in saying you devs in this game are not elite melee players

And you are?

Yes.

Phantax · July 2014

Nonsense.... Casters should have highest DPS ! Been a 'glass cannon' for years and its always suited me well. Melee are cannon fodder... always have been....lol

DeLindsay · July 2014

Mykah wrote: »

Melee should out dps Range - Pve 101

Nope that's just your OPINION and not remotely the way is should or has to be to make sense. If anything ZoS IS trying to bring Stamina based builds in line with Magicka based builds for DPS. It's a good start (the 1.3 set bonus changes) and only time will tell if they need to do even more. BTW, have you bothered to look at the PTS changes to soft caps? Like where Physical damage cap is WAY higher than Spell damage cap. It's like 185 compared to 131 or something close to that, which in itself is a soft nerf for Magicka DPS builds.

poodlemasterb16_ESO · July 2014

Oh sure some idiot with a sword is gonna just destroy a Master Wizard.

Apart from RP, in any real encounter the guys in the front will take the damage.

I have a tough sorc at level 38 he can mix it up pretty well. It's an experiment and he does well with the sorc cc and surge to buff his big axe. Fighters Guild Victor at level 36, we won't be able to use the PM till level 43.

My witch, the glass canon and a Vampire has very similar numbers at level 35, she has more health regen which although counter intuitive really speaks to the buffs I have arranged for her. She hits harder and has much more spell resist although he has more armor. Master Wizard at level 34, poor Haskill. "Oh no, the bats!".

You might want to take your MMO elitism and find a good place to ... put it.

Auric_ESO · July 2014

To the OP: I understand where you are coming from on your first and third paragraphs and they have stated that they know of the problem and are working on it. If you look at the pts notes for 1.3 you'll see the START of the charges.

The snotty second paragraph was just un-neccessary.

Obscure · July 2014

+1

High Risk should equate to High Reward

Low Risk should equate to Low Reward

In ESO High Risk equates to the same reward a Lower Risk equates to.

Pretty sure this is being addressed though. Should expect some changes in 1.3. Time will tell.

maxilaub17_ESO · July 2014

Mykah wrote: »

Risk vs Reward. Pretty simple stuff here. In every situation 2hand and Duel Wield should be out dpsing Destro and Resto staff. Why? Because they require melee range to land attacks.

Im fairly confident in saying you devs in this game are not elite melee players, the imbalances between light armor and medium armor alone tell me all I need to know about your preferred playstyles.

To balance your game you MUST increase the raw damage of melee beyond that of ranged to compensate the inherrent difficulty of staying in melee range to dps. In the game's current state Destro/Resto out dpses 2h/DW while also being easier to use, this is the opposite of risk reward, it is poor game design.

Wake up guys.

And you forgot to add the Cyrodiil designed Zerg style PvP requires melee to stand in the thick of the zerg (and their damage). They (melee) should at least be able to dish out more damage in the short time they will survive up there.

Lord_Hev · July 2014

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

Oh sure some idiot with a sword is gonna just destroy a Master Wizard.

In TES. A Legendary Warrior can very well destroy a Master Wizard. Well, destroy being a strong word. But it's not as one-sided as you suggest.

And this is coming from someone whom plays a mage/conjurer in all TES games 75% of the time.

Mr.Turtlesworth · July 2014

I Definately agree with this. Melee is so much more risky to use in pve as well as pvp. Increased damage is fair.

Nox_Aeterna · July 2014

And i dont agree with you OP.

Melee should give a bit more dps than ranged only in situations it would not be interrupted.

Usually devs give melee a bonus to compensate for the time they need to move out of certain atks and so on , which is usually more often than the ranged need.

In the end , both got pretty much the same dps overall , melee can give more burst , but has to move more and ranged can keep it going , but can be like a turret more often.

For this to work , the fights themselves require such atks to be implemented , so that the players are forced to move into these situations.

NorthernFury · July 2014

Lord_Hev wrote: »

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

Oh sure some idiot with a sword is gonna just destroy a Master Wizard.

In TES. A Legendary Warrior can very well destroy a Master Wizard. Well, destroy being a strong word. But it's not as one-sided as you suggest.

And this is coming from someone whom plays a mage/conjurer in all TES games 75% of the time.

It's kind of like watching a good wrestler go at it with a jiu-jitsu master......the jiu-jitsu guy has more and fancier tools, but just as often the wrestler will just impose his will and pound the crap out of him and his fancy skills. I view warriors vs. wizards in the same fashion.

vyal · July 2014

Mykah wrote: »

Risk vs Reward. Pretty simple stuff here. In every situation 2hand and Duel Wield should be out dpsing Destro and Resto staff. Why? Because they require melee range to land attacks.

Im fairly confident in saying you devs in this game are not elite melee players, the imbalances between light armor and medium armor alone tell me all I need to know about your preferred playstyles.

To balance your game you MUST increase the raw damage of melee beyond that of ranged to compensate the inherrent difficulty of staying in melee range to dps. In the game's current state Destro/Resto out dpses 2h/DW while also being easier to use, this is the opposite of risk reward, it is poor game design.

Wake up guys.

This logic is lost on Zenimax. It's sticks and dresses at a distance, from now to the distant future.

Dress up or get out.

( You're 100% correct, but they don't care, as long as x people keep paying per month. Whether or not the game is designed well is very low on the list of priorities, evidently. )

Wifeaggro13 · July 2014

Emperor wrote: »

someuser wrote: »

Don't forget, most ranged options include light/medium armor which has to also be taken into account.

If melee is to be buffed, I'm fine with that (they do need it). But if you buff it, you also have to take into consideration survivability or the pendulum just swings to the other side.

Food for thought

This ^

It's not as simple as it was in old games when melee classes did more damage than range classes because melee classes took more damage while range classes could hide while attacking.

Now adays the range classes are squishy which makes up for the fact that they can kite things. IMO they should both do about the same DPS.

i tank in light Friggin armor . Everything shadda's tear Trials VR dungeons. Surviveablity comes from buffs and stacking glyphs and AP for health. Ranged sit out side and flick spells with litte consquence of boss damage just spamming away on your rotations while heavy attacking with a resto /destro swap . you dodge roll out of a couple puddles and thats it. melee DPs does not even compare to a magica based build its ridiculous. eve if the DPs were even you still would have extreme situational awareness that melee has to deal with . Crap shooting out of bosses feet that get wider and wider as you go out and all that other non sense and several other mechanics that punish melee. melee DPS needs a severe buff and i mean severe. this game is so im balanced it has surpassed the point of funny to Negligent on the part of the developers.

SFBryan18 · July 2014

NorthernFury wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Don't ranged attacks give more time to block or dodge?

Being at range gives you more time to block or dodge (boss and mob attacks) as well.

So like most multiplayer games, range is suppose to be stronger, but also slower and easier to avoid. CQC is suppose to be weaker, but faster and harder to avoid. Think of a sniper vs. an MP7. Same concept. If a melee player closes the gap, they can unleash on the slower range player. This is the balance.

robertlive2014 · July 2014

The PvE in this game follows the trinity design, am I right? You have Tanks, Healers, and Damage (DPS) roles. If you run around solo, you will need a balanced build to succeed, neither 100% melee, or 100% ranged. As soon as you party up, you will need to designate roles and specialize in order to succeed. Tanks are required to do almost no damage for a party with good composition to succeed. Almost without fail, Tanks are in melee range. Healers are usually positioned just outside of melee range, but close enough for AOE heals to heal the tank. Ranged DPS will have the benefit of requiring almost no defense, and thus, often achieve the highest DPS. The Risk/Reward is shared by the party, not the individual.

Some classes have high damage skills that require melee or near melee range, such as the Dragonknight (DK) skills Searing Strike, Fiery breath, and Lava Whip. These skill have morphs for either more damage, or more sustain, depending on the role the player is trying to fill (DPS or Tank). As a result of requiring melee range for these high damage skills, the Dragonknight class also has some good "tanky" skills, which can also benefit the role of Tank. The Nightblade, Templar, and Sorcerer classes seem to have their distinct thematic balance, such as stealth, healing, and escape.

Weapon choice is secondary to class choice. For example, my DK DPS rotation uses absolutely no weapon skills beyond light and heavy attacks, all skills come from the DK class trees and the guild trees. I use a Fire Staff because DKs have a lot of synergy with fire damage. So I disagree that 2hand and Duel Wield should be out dpsing Destro and Resto staff. My DK can do the same high DPS with any weapon in the game. Many Nightblades use Resto staff for max DPS only because of a Resto passive that gives 10% damage bonus for staying at full health, something only possible in a coordinated party, their DPS comes from class skills. "2hand and Duel Wield" are not classes, and you don't balance a game around weapon skills. Some weapon skills are just not as good in certain situations. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

Soliss · July 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

Mykah wrote: »

Melee should out dps Range - Pve 101

Nope that's just your OPINION and not remotely the way is should or has to be to make sense. If anything ZoS IS trying to bring Stamina based builds in line with Magicka based builds for DPS. It's a good start (the 1.3 set bonus changes) and only time will tell if they need to do even more. BTW, have you bothered to look at the PTS changes to soft caps? Like where Physical damage cap is WAY higher than Spell damage cap. It's like 185 compared to 131 or something close to that, which in itself is a soft nerf for Magicka DPS builds.

Unfortunately from the damage calculators that I have seen the contribution from Weapon Damage is about half of what Spell Damage contributes

For example:

Magicka based Class skill damage:
( ([Magicka] / 20) + ( [Spell Damage] ) ) * [Skill Coefficient]

Stamina based Weapon skill damage
( ([Stamina] / 20) + ( [Weapon Damage] / 1.9 ) ) * [Skill Coefficient]

Skill Coefficient is an individual number for each skill that determines how the skill scales for damage.

So 185 Weapon Damage will contribute about what 97 Spell Damage would.

Phinix1 · July 2014

someuser wrote: »

If melee is to be buffed, I'm fine with that (they do need it). But if you buff it, you also have to take into consideration survivability or the pendulum just swings to the other side.

An excellent point. Melee have many defensive advantages built into their armor and weapons, and their proximity and stamina resource pool and high regen puts them in better position to interrupt/exploit, which also boosts their attacks.

I have not yet delved into Heavy Armor however as that is mainly a tanking resource however let us consider the advantages of Medium vs. Light for their respective archetypes, as I hear this talk of light being superior in all cases far too often here. These are the total stat gains possible with a full set of each type and all associated passives equipped:

Light Armor:

Reduce magic cost by 21%
Increase magic recovery by 28%
Increase spell resist by 56%
10% spell crit with 5+ light armor pieces
42% spell penetration

Medium Armor:

21% weapon crit
28% stamina recovery
Reduce stamina cost by 7%
Reduce detection radius by 35%
Reduce stealth cost by 49%
Increase attack speed by 10% with 5+ medium armor pieces
Increase sprint speed by 21%
Decrease roll cost by 28%

At first glance based on pure stat size this may seem overly one-sided, and the "class gimicky" buffs to sneak, sprint, and detection may feel underwhelming to compensate.

However, considering the biggest complaint I have heard RE: Nightblade is the need for more sustained DPS, things begin to balance out a bit more.

One advantage melee and all physical weapon users have over ranged magic is that their regular and heavy weapon attacks benefit from their armor and class synergy, while for the most part ranged magic staff users do not. To my knowledge (unless they changed it), people on the foundry worked out that staff light and heavy attacks don't benefit from Spell Crit OR weapon crit at all.

Medium armor melee users on the other hand get a HUGE amount of crit (21% JUST from medium armor, not to mention class passives), which goes directly to sustain. Even when you are out of stamina to use mele abilities with this crit, your light and heavy attacks get it as well, while the staff does NOT. This is how melee was designed in this game, to encourage you to mix in much more light/heavy attacks than ranged magic users. This lets you keep up light/heavy attacks with decent DPS while your resources regenerate.

Stamina recovery for medium armor is now EQUAL to magic recovery for light armor.

You don't get as much cost reduction (7% vs. 21%), however keep in mind that staff attacks get ZERO crit from light armor (and only 10% for actual magic abilities).

This is further balanced out when you consider the 10% attack speed boost from medium armor, which lets your massively high crit rating light and heavy attacks hit more often.

I feel that Medium VS. Light are actually pretty well balanced now. The only thing I might consider changing, is to apply the 28% cost reduction you get to roll cost to Block, Bash, and Interrupt as well.

MasterSpatula · July 2014

No, ranged should do the highest damage. Their risk should be that they're squishy as hell, and part of the point of that high damage is that they desperately try to avoid taking hits.

The real problem is with the mitigation factor of MA and HA, as well as the fact that every boss seems to have a close-range massive-damage AOE . These makes the risk factor of being melee higher than it should be and the risk factor of being ranged lower than it should be.

ferzalrwb17_ESO · July 2014

someuser wrote: »

Don't forget, most ranged options include light/medium armor which has to also be taken into account.

If melee is to be buffed, I'm fine with that (they do need it). But if you buff it, you also have to take into consideration survivability or the pendulum just swings to the other side.

Food for thought

If that food is my dinner I'm going to be hungry.

People are tanking with light armour in this game because armour is almost irrelevant as a stat on its own. It's all about the passives.

Currently a skirtwearer can take just as much of a pounding as a heavy whilst dishing out twice the dps. This makes heavy armour totally pointless. It may as well not be in the game at all in its current form as all it does is trick some players into gimping themselves.

But I can't see an easy way to alter the mechanics here so that survivability can be increased whilst dps is decreased - that is, there is no way at all to create a traditional tank and no way to make heavy armour matter. The game was designed by skirtwearers for skirtwearers. The entire game is based around that - from the mechanics of the dungeons to the fields of Cyrodiil.

I have fun using medium armour but my build is gimped. That's the price I'm willing to pay for the fun but I know I'll always be disadvantaged in PvP (which I can live with) and fairly useless in dungeons (which is a shame).

poodlemasterb16_ESO · July 2014

NorthernFury wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Don't ranged attacks give more time to block or dodge?

Being at range gives you more time to block or dodge (boss and mob attacks) as well.

There are many enemies you want to stay pretty close to. Staying behind what I'm killing is always my preferred method and many bosses are much easier up close. They are mostly pretty slow too. Some you have to interrupt, so you often need to be close.

Don't get me wrong my fragile sorc stays well out of the way of harm, but sometimes that is right beside the boss. A 30 degree cone is nothing much to dodge if you are close but can be tough at the back of the room.

Hilgara · July 2014

Dont bring a sword to a gun fight.....Unless its one MoFo of a sword!