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"Automatic" Emperor Farming
leewells
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A little over two days ago, we crowned an emperor in our guild on a low populated server (no names being mentioned). To say the least, this emp was ill prepared and didn't have the skill points ready and abdicated the throne shortly after getting emperor. For the next two days, our guild fought tooth and nail to preserve the inner keeps as "red". However, exactly 48 hours later, we noticed something that we have not read anywhere else happening; a new emperor was crowned on our faction, without a single emperor keep flipping. There was no maintenance, nothing out of the ordinary that would have caused emperor to change, except the new emperor was crowned precisely 48 hours after the previous emperor abdicated.
With all the complaining going around that "passing" emperor to the next person in your alliance as being "unintended", it is looking more and more like this method of "passing" was indeed intended. Why would the devs have a "Emperor by default" if this wasn't intended? Why would the message "abdicated the throne" be in the game in the first place? Unless, it was an intended mechanic to strengthen your alliance.
I do not advocate that anyone "flip" emp as fast as they can, in fact we only pass emp when we loose it, otherwise, we hold it for as long as we can, however when our current emp is deposed, we drop it to the next person in our faction.
Let me lay out some of the pros and cons I've seen with this over the course of a few months. Argue if you will, but this is actual "in-the-field" experience.
Emperor Dropping
The act of dropping emperor to your alliance when you have been organically deposed.
PROS
1. Giving everyone hope of being crowned emperor tends to make a server a lot more active
2. Having multiple former emperor buffs tends to strengthen a group which can strengthen the alliance -- a 100-man raid of former emps is effectively a 101 man raid, and a 500 man raid is effectively a 505 man raid.
3. Cycling emperor helps identify the really strong and adaptive players, which can identify, at a future date a more permanent emperor -- points, how long someone can play is not in my opinion or many people's opinion a good metric for determining if someone makes a great emperor/player; anyone can afk in a heated battle to get defense ticks 24/7 with the aid of multiple people playing the account.
CONS
1. Former emps on other servers seem to think that this cheapens their "title" that they somehow earned differently (How did they earn the points differently btw?).
Hoarding Emperor and Locking the Scoreboard
In case you don't know what this is, it is the act of someone playing 24/7 for 2-6 weeks straight, effectively placking more than 1,000,000 ap between himself and the second person in line and never dropping emperor.
PROS
1. All former emps feel elitist. This is a con
CONS
1. Other players become demoralized, they leave as they see no hope of ever obtaining the crown themselves. The only motivating factor besides emp is the end-of-campaign reward which is less than leveling an alt from 0 to 30, which takes just a few hours.
2. Having a lack of former emperors, against an opposing alliance with a lot of former emerperors places the alliance at a disadvantage.
3. These emperors tend to be very weak emperors, they don't group with other players, and afk at large battles to collect all defensive ticks unless they actively have emp.
THE REAL PROBLEM
The real problem seems to me that people do not respect the choices of others. If I earn emperor and "choose" to abdicate it to someone in my alliance, I feel that as earning that position, I have the right to do so. I also feel that if I earn it and want to retain it for myself for as long as I legitimately beat other players as per the rules, that is also my right to do so, but it is not my right to complain about players leaving the campaign because I did so. Everyone earned the points to get where they are, trying to dictate what they do with the crown seems to the the epitome of a mob tyranny.
Edited by leewells on 4 July 2014 07:28 With all the complaining going around that "passing" emperor to the next person in your alliance as being "unintended", it is looking more and more like this method of "passing" was indeed intended. Why would the devs have a "Emperor by default" if this wasn't intended? Why would the message "abdicated the throne" be in the game in the first place? Unless, it was an intended mechanic to strengthen your alliance.
I do not advocate that anyone "flip" emp as fast as they can, in fact we only pass emp when we loose it, otherwise, we hold it for as long as we can, however when our current emp is deposed, we drop it to the next person in our faction.
Let me lay out some of the pros and cons I've seen with this over the course of a few months. Argue if you will, but this is actual "in-the-field" experience.
Emperor Dropping
The act of dropping emperor to your alliance when you have been organically deposed.
PROS
1. Giving everyone hope of being crowned emperor tends to make a server a lot more active
2. Having multiple former emperor buffs tends to strengthen a group which can strengthen the alliance -- a 100-man raid of former emps is effectively a 101 man raid, and a 500 man raid is effectively a 505 man raid.
3. Cycling emperor helps identify the really strong and adaptive players, which can identify, at a future date a more permanent emperor -- points, how long someone can play is not in my opinion or many people's opinion a good metric for determining if someone makes a great emperor/player; anyone can afk in a heated battle to get defense ticks 24/7 with the aid of multiple people playing the account.
CONS
1. Former emps on other servers seem to think that this cheapens their "title" that they somehow earned differently (How did they earn the points differently btw?).
Hoarding Emperor and Locking the Scoreboard
In case you don't know what this is, it is the act of someone playing 24/7 for 2-6 weeks straight, effectively placking more than 1,000,000 ap between himself and the second person in line and never dropping emperor.
PROS
1. All former emps feel elitist. This is a con
CONS
1. Other players become demoralized, they leave as they see no hope of ever obtaining the crown themselves. The only motivating factor besides emp is the end-of-campaign reward which is less than leveling an alt from 0 to 30, which takes just a few hours.
2. Having a lack of former emperors, against an opposing alliance with a lot of former emerperors places the alliance at a disadvantage.
3. These emperors tend to be very weak emperors, they don't group with other players, and afk at large battles to collect all defensive ticks unless they actively have emp.
THE REAL PROBLEM
The real problem seems to me that people do not respect the choices of others. If I earn emperor and "choose" to abdicate it to someone in my alliance, I feel that as earning that position, I have the right to do so. I also feel that if I earn it and want to retain it for myself for as long as I legitimately beat other players as per the rules, that is also my right to do so, but it is not my right to complain about players leaving the campaign because I did so. Everyone earned the points to get where they are, trying to dictate what they do with the crown seems to the the epitome of a mob tyranny.
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demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭The way scoreboard points are earned needs to be changed. Kills should have minimal impact. Capturing and defending objectives should give significantly greater amount of points, but amount of activity involving hp healed to players or walls and damage done to players and walls should impact tic points. Fortunantly repairing walls already gives points so they have one thing right so far. But for a kill i can get 800 or so points, keep cap 400 or so. Its backwards.
The proccess of crowning an emperor is way simplistic, and only got exoloited on low pop servers to increase the number of former imp buffs and achieves. Most people with former emp didnt earn emp. Dunno how the automatic thing works. Sounds like a bug or exploit to me.Edited by demonlkojipub19_ESO on 4 July 2014 09:211 -
Rylana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭what the hell? less ap for a kill? against a player? in a pvp zone?
someone done missed the point ^@rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin2 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO I think you may have read the post incorrectly. Slow down and read it again.
Playtime VR14 Sorcerer
99% PvP I do my best to never leave Cyrodiil
Keep your PvE out of my playground and Ill keep my PvP opinions out of your threads. They are two different games and need to be treated as such by both the developers and the gaming community.2 -
heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »Lol, time for ESO to open a cash shop & start selling emperor title.
This subject is not about getting Emperor, its about holding it. Simply put, there is no logical reason not to pass the title to the next person in line other than personal pride.
Playtime VR14 Sorcerer
99% PvP I do my best to never leave Cyrodiil
Keep your PvE out of my playground and Ill keep my PvP opinions out of your threads. They are two different games and need to be treated as such by both the developers and the gaming community.2 -
Limitless✭✭✭dat signature
Ebonheart Pact
The Red Sun: Templar
Arch-Mage Zeus: Sorcerer
Ethereal Flame: Dragonknight
Silent Edge: NightBlade
Join my guild; The Red Sun Republic today!1 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hoarding Emperor and Locking the Scoreboard
In case you don't know what this is, it is the act of someone playing 24/7 for 2-6 weeks straight, effectively placking more than 1,000,000 ap between himself and the second person in line and never dropping emperor.
This is one of many reasons why we have dull emp farming on low pop campaigns.
It's impossible to catch up to a guy that's actively emp hoarding. Doesn't matter how much everyone else on the leaderboard plays or how much they deserve it. As active emperor you make way more AP than everyone else due to passives, therefore more kills. So if someone is greedy and doesn't feel like sharing the glory, than every aspiring emperor in your faction is screwed.
Of course, people have different options about these things. The guys not giving a crap about getting emperor usually enjoys seeing the same guy get crowned over and over and farming billions of AP for himself. It makes them feel proud having a strong and active emp and so on. I can sort of sympathize with that as well, especially when your faction is the weaker one. Than you dont want some flip-flopping buff farmer to get crowned, you want someone that's going to be useful and stick around.
Anyway, the emperor system needs a revamp for so many reasons.1 -
indytims_ESO✭✭✭✭Emp 'farming' shouldn't even be possible. It cheapens the title, and boils down to a bunch of min-maxers 'passing it around' for the bonus.
The game should be designed such that the emperor title can not change hands very often by any means, perhaps once a week or every two weeks, or even once a month. It should be something that pvpers aspire to and work toward - not 'arrange and trade off' like a cheap hooker at a frat party.
Again - bad design by the Zeni pvp team.2 -
leewells✭✭✭indytims_ESO wrote: »Emp 'farming' shouldn't even be possible. It cheapens the title, and boils down to a bunch of min-maxers 'passing it around' for the bonus.
The game should be designed such that the emperor title can not change hands very often by any means, perhaps once a week or every two weeks, or even once a month. It should be something that pvpers aspire to and work toward - not 'arrange and trade off' like a cheap hooker at a frat party.
Again - bad design by the Zeni pvp team.
No, the actual solution has been stated several times: make the "former" passive's "strength" or potency based on how long the emp had it (1 day being the weakest, 1 week being the strongest). That will stop the "fast farming". (after 1 week, the passive should start to get weaker again to give *** a "risk" for being an ***, such as if, he/she looses emp, its pretty much gone -- no passive. Likewise, if you keep emp for less than a day, then you get no passive.)
The deal is though, about those min-maxers. If they legitimately earned the AP, they should be the ones to decide what they do with "their" hard-earned crown, not you.Edited by leewells on 4 July 2014 18:211 -
thelg✭✭✭Real problem is not people passing emperor. It is people farming each other to generate AP to be top of the board for emperor. This basically kills any meaningful AvA in a campaign and should be a suspension followed by account ban on second offence.1
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demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I might have
I don't think many people are going to pass on their emperorship for very many reasons, which is whyyyyyyy there needs to be a different method to the whole emperor deal. The person at the top of the scoreboard is most likely going to stay there until the shorter campaigns take effect. One idea was to reduce the person who is crowned emperor's points. Was to 0 in that Idea, but I thing by half is more appropriate.
And not many are going to go with any ideas that in any way change cyrodil, like @Rylana .... yes kills should give significantly less ap than capturing a keep or scroll. Keeps and flags are cyrodil. Kills are a side effect. If anything kills near a keep or scroll should give a good amount of AP still because they are most likely attacking or defending an objective, but those gank squads just out to farm ap shouldn't get as much.Edited by demonlkojipub19_ESO on 4 July 2014 19:290 -
Rylana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cyrodiil is not PvE
End of discussion.@rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin1 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Capturing keeps and scrolls isn't pve either, and both of those are cyrodil.1
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Dekkameron✭✭✭✭✭I agree that holding on to Emperor does in fact hinder your faction as a whole. but i also think that having about 785 former emperors fighting alongside each other is just frankly ridiculous.
Tiber Septim had Emperor for about 80 years if i remember.- Veteran Combat Librarian -2 -
PadSoul ShrivenWhat about remove this emperor former title (passive bonus) and stay only with the small bonus when faction as emperor ?0
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demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I guess I should clarify what I meant. Kills should count less towards scoreboard points unless they are in defense or capture of a scroll or keep. Whatever AP they give toward buying siege equipment is fine, since kills are required to even get siege equipment. Scoreboard gains and spendable AP should be separate increases.0
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apostate9✭✭✭✭✭demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »The way scoreboard points are earned needs to be changed. Kills should have minimal impact. Capturing and defending objectives should give significantly greater amount of points, but amount of activity involving hp healed to players or walls and damage done to players and walls should impact tic points. Fortunantly repairing walls already gives points so they have one thing right so far. But for a kill i can get 800 or so points, keep cap 400 or so. Its backwards.
The proccess of crowning an emperor is way simplistic, and only got exoloited on low pop servers to increase the number of former imp buffs and achieves. Most people with former emp didnt earn emp. Dunno how the automatic thing works. Sounds like a bug or exploit to me.
How on Earth....Wait. So if the Emperor abdicates, you feel it is a "bug or exploit" that the game, through no human agency, enthrones the next highest-scoring player from the same alliance? The WINNING alliance? What exactly did you think would or should happen? Do you even play PVP?
The system is working as intended. Like it or not.
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apostate9✭✭✭✭✭Real problem is not people passing emperor. It is people farming each other to generate AP to be top of the board for emperor. This basically kills any meaningful AvA in a campaign and should be a suspension followed by account ban on second offence.
Yes. A thousand times, yes. THIS is exploiting, and undermining the competitive element of the game, as designed. Passing emp to your second in command on abdication is fine. I can't even figure out what the crying is about there. But yeah, rigging battles so that everyone can farm each other for AP is sketchy. That however, is a whole different thing.
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demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »The way scoreboard points are earned needs to be changed. Kills should have minimal impact. Capturing and defending objectives should give significantly greater amount of points, but amount of activity involving hp healed to players or walls and damage done to players and walls should impact tic points. Fortunantly repairing walls already gives points so they have one thing right so far. But for a kill i can get 800 or so points, keep cap 400 or so. Its backwards.
The proccess of crowning an emperor is way simplistic, and only got exoloited on low pop servers to increase the number of former imp buffs and achieves. Most people with former emp didnt earn emp. Dunno how the automatic thing works. Sounds like a bug or exploit to me.
How on Earth....Wait. So if the Emperor abdicates, you feel it is a "bug or exploit" that the game, through no human agency, enthrones the next highest-scoring player from the same alliance? The WINNING alliance? What exactly did you think would or should happen? Do you even play PVP?
The system is working as intended. Like it or not.
I don't think you know what I meant by automatic.0 -
apostate9✭✭✭✭✭demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »The way scoreboard points are earned needs to be changed. Kills should have minimal impact. Capturing and defending objectives should give significantly greater amount of points, but amount of activity involving hp healed to players or walls and damage done to players and walls should impact tic points. Fortunantly repairing walls already gives points so they have one thing right so far. But for a kill i can get 800 or so points, keep cap 400 or so. Its backwards.
The proccess of crowning an emperor is way simplistic, and only got exoloited on low pop servers to increase the number of former imp buffs and achieves. Most people with former emp didnt earn emp. Dunno how the automatic thing works. Sounds like a bug or exploit to me.
How on Earth....Wait. So if the Emperor abdicates, you feel it is a "bug or exploit" that the game, through no human agency, enthrones the next highest-scoring player from the same alliance? The WINNING alliance? What exactly did you think would or should happen? Do you even play PVP?
The system is working as intended. Like it or not.
I don't think you know what I meant by automatic.
I don't think you do either. But I do know what actually happens. In actual reality.
Edited by apostate9 on 10 July 2014 03:290 -
Jaxom✭✭✭✭The "Real Problem" of what LeeWells is describing is only a small portion of people. I can understand why he would want to step down so a guild member could have a chance at the throne, not that I condone it, but I can understand that point of view.
What is being left out is the elephant in the room, when factions are working together, and flipping keeps as fast as possible to give the former emperor passives to each other. This essentially destroys any meaningful PvP, especially when your own faction is sabotaging any defensive efforts. This is the Real Problem, not what LeeWells is describing. Also, if you abdicate the throne to give it to a fellow guild member, but put no effort in defending the inner keeps, well you are basically doing the same thing without the official colluding.
I agree 100% with another comment he has made though. The passives should unlock based on the amount of time you are holding the throne. This makes sense since it deters Emperor Farming. You will not gain the full benefit of the skill line if you flip it right away. This is a nice compromise that I think many can agree with.
There is another idea out there which I'd like to suggest. Make the Emperor and Former Emperor passives a buff instead of a skill line. In this scenario, you instantly gain all the benefits, however, there can only ever be 1 person with the Emperor Buff and 2 with the Former Emperor Buffs (one for each faction). The two factions currently not holding the throne will have 1 Former Emperor each at a time. Of course, if this was the case, I would suggest buffing the Former Emperor skill line to make it more worthwhile. Once you crown a new Emperor for your faction, the person who has the Former Emperor buff would go away.
This will would deter emperor farming as the buff would be for a limited time only and people would fight tooth and nail to keep their buff. This would also correct the issue with people farming emperor for the passives solely for trials.
my 2 cents at least.1
