Intended?: Puncturing Strikes+Morphs and dysfunctional cc immunity?

Thejollygreenone · July 2014

Generally every cc in the game in pvp applies a cc immunity to the affected player for about 3 seconds after the effect ends. This occurs without having to cc-break and use stamina, but it also occurs when cc-breaking because the immunity is applied when the effect ends, which obviously happens with cc-breaking.

The problem that I'm seeing, is that Puncturing Strikes and morphs do not apply said immunity independent of cc-breaking after the effect ends, either that or a secondary knockback can occur on second activation of the ability (spamming) BEFORE the cc immunity applies, therefore nullifying it and allowing it to be chained.

Regardless of the cause, I know without a shadow of a doubt that the knockback from this ability and its morphs when used consecutively can keep a target cc'd indefinitely, rendering the affected player immobile and unable to use abilities for more than a split second between knockbacks.

Whenever a templar with this ability can catch someone without stamina (and sometimes even with a good bit of stamina), they can spam the hell out of either of this abilities morphs and perma-cc a target til they die. Unless of course they happen to have something like mist form/immovable handy and are able to get it off between stuns, or preferably beforehand but I rarely am afforded such luxurious forethought.

I'm going to go ahead and assume this ability to cc chain not intended and suggest this ability+morphs needs a good looking at in this regards. However if it is intended, I'd like to know that's the case so I can start permanently avoiding templars as well as dragonknights in 1v1 fights and be able to plan accordingly.

P.S. When I brought this up to a templar who I fought and used this tactic, he simply informed me that there was no such cc immunity without cc-breaking, and that I was flat out wrong. I was almost positive this wasn't the case. I asked him to test it with me and he simply refused and kept asserting he was correct without needing to test...

contd...

Momentarily afterwards I found an unsuspecting AFK enemy, stunned him with the various types of cc I had, waited till the effect ended and saw the swirly circle around the enemies feet, tried to cc again, and voila! Immune to the cc portion of the abilities. I tested this with wrecking blow and mass hysteria, the two cc's I typically use in pvp.

So, if anyone has the same doubts, I implore you to go test it for yourself, please prove me wrong, because as it is I'm at least 99% positive this cc immunity does indeed exist and is a regular part of pvp life. And even furthermore I'm just as sure that Puncturing Strikes and its morphs when spammed are able to get around this cc-immunity, leading to easy kills through a one ability spam tactic.

So TLDR; someone look into this, I've done all that I can while being refused the assistance of a player from another faction to test it on. Or if a dev could swoop in and tell me either this is intended, or is being looked into, I'd very much appreciate the insight.

dcincali · July 2014

So basically a Templar has the chance to actually kill someone so now it needs a nerf.. Gotcha..

Thejollygreenone · July 2014

dcincali wrote: »

So basically a Templar has the chance to actually kill someone so now it needs a nerf.. Gotcha..

If it's through a bug, yes. Not a nerf, a fix. And idk, what you're talking about, templars were pretty good in pvp before all the buffs. They're in a damn good place now, not trying to ruin that. Just trying to get a broken mechanic fixed, or at least confirmed that it's broken.

Please don't misinterpret me, not screaming for a nerf. Just at least some info of whether or not it's intended, and if not it needs to be looked at. If it's indeed broken, you're saying it shouldn't be fixed JUST because that would be considered a nerf with templars in such a decent place in pvp?

If, by some act of god, this mechanic was brought back in line to apply cc-immunity properly, and during the same patch templars got a change that resolved their magicka regeneration issues, would you still have the same position as you seem to be taking?

But by all means, if you want to interpret this as a scream for nerfs, whatever floats your boat mate, carry on.

dcincali · July 2014

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

dcincali wrote: »

So basically a Templar has the chance to actually kill someone so now it needs a nerf.. Gotcha..

If it's through a bug, yes. Not a nerf, a fix. And idk, what you're talking about, templars were pretty good in pvp before all the buffs. They're in a damn good place now, not trying to ruin that. Just trying to get a broken mechanic fixed, or at least confirmed that it's broken.

Please don't misinterpret me, not screaming for a nerf. Just at least some info of whether or not it's intended, and if not it needs to be looked at. If it's indeed broken, you're saying it shouldn't be fixed JUST because that would be considered a nerf with templars in such a decent place in pvp?

If, by some act of god, this mechanic was brought back in line to apply cc-immunity properly, and during the same patch templars got a change that resolved their magicka regeneration issues, would you still have the same position as you seem to be taking?

But by all means, if you want to interpret this as a scream for nerfs, whatever floats your boat mate, carry on.

tldr.. What ifs aren't what ifs until they happen.

Mojomonkeyman · July 2014

dcincali wrote: »

So basically a Templar has the chance to actually kill someone so now it needs a nerf.. Gotcha..

Templars are incredibly strong in pvp, right now. The strong ones don`t abuse the puncturing strikes knockback, tho, since there`s far better skills for them to use.

OP is right, from time to time you encounter such a puncturing strike spammer and when they catch you offguard they`ll just spamknock you to death. No cc immunity will be applied from puncturing strikes alone in my experience.

Best regards

tplink3r1 · July 2014

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

dcincali wrote: »

So basically a Templar has the chance to actually kill someone so now it needs a nerf.. Gotcha..

Templars are incredibly strong in pvp, right now. The strong ones don`t abuse the puncturing strikes knockback, tho, since there`s far better skills for them to use.

OP is right, from time to time you encounter such a puncturing strike spammer and when they catch you offguard they`ll just spamknock you to death. No cc immunity will be applied from puncturing strikes alone in my experience.

Best regards

that right, everyone is forced to roll caster.

timidobserver · July 2014

I think the difference is that biting jabs doesn't give you a traditional cc for x seconds. It's not a stun, immobolize, or snare for x seconds. It simply knocks you back, and it is possible that a knock back of unspecified duration doesn't proc the same immunity that an actual stun for x seconds does. Whether that is by design or a bug Zenimax would have to chime in on.

So, to test this properly, find another ability that does nothing but knock back(no stun for x seconds, immobilize, ect) and test it.

-Meteor is another ability with no duration specified. It simply knocks all enemies back, so test that to see if it procs immunity.
-Magnum shot is another ability that knocks back for unspecified duration. Test that.
-Destructive touch is another.

Thejollygreenone · July 2014

timidobserver wrote: »

I think the difference is that biting jabs doesn't give you a traditional cc for x seconds. It's not a stun, immobolize, or snare for x seconds. It simply knocks you back, and it is possible that a knock back doesn't proc the same immunity that an actual stun does. Whether that is by design or a bug Zenimax would have to chime in on.

So, to test this properly, find another ability that does nothing but knock back(no stun for x seconds, immobilize, ect) and test it. Meteor is another ability with no duration specified. It simply knocks all enemies back, so test that to see if it procs immunity.

Yeah I'd agree with this, whether bug or intended, ZoS would have to give us some info unfortunately.

Your theory about knockbacks is a valid one, I had had a similar thought. However I think using meteor to test might be a little exhaustive due to it being an ultimate with a high cost.

My recommendation would be to test it with scatter shot/draining shot. I would, but I have the ability morphed to magnum shot and I think the 6 second disorient at the end would mess with the results.

Thanks for the responses to those of you with constructive things to say ^.^

timidobserver · July 2014

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I think the difference is that biting jabs doesn't give you a traditional cc for x seconds. It's not a stun, immobolize, or snare for x seconds. It simply knocks you back, and it is possible that a knock back doesn't proc the same immunity that an actual stun does. Whether that is by design or a bug Zenimax would have to chime in on.

So, to test this properly, find another ability that does nothing but knock back(no stun for x seconds, immobilize, ect) and test it. Meteor is another ability with no duration specified. It simply knocks all enemies back, so test that to see if it procs immunity.

Yeah I'd agree with this, whether bug or intended, ZoS would have to give us some info unfortunately.

Your theory about knockbacks is a valid one, I had had a similar thought. However I think using meteor to test might be a little exhaustive due to it being an ultimate with a high cost.

My recommendation would be to test it with scatter shot/draining shot. I would, but I have the ability morphed to magnum shot and I think the 6 second disorient at the end would mess with the results.

Thanks for the responses to those of you with constructive things to say ^.^

I guess you could get 5 people to drop a meteor on someone one after another and see if they ever become immune. Regardless of the result, this would be entertaining at least, and that is all that matters at the end of the day lol.

timidobserver · July 2014

I can confirm that there is no immunity from the knockback on magnum shot. A bow user can just spam you with it.

Thejollygreenone · July 2014

timidobserver wrote: »

I can confirm that there is no immunity from the knockback on magnum shot. A bow user can just spam you with it.

Good to know, thanks for testing.

I wonder if it keeps the enemy locked down as easily as with puncturing strikes, as the templar knockback is much shorter and keeps the target in range for the next strike to hit.

With Magnum shot/variants the knockback is 6m, while the max range is 10m. After two knockbacks you'll be out of range unless quickly advancing on the target.

But that would only be counting the knockback, so that applies to Draining Shot but not Magnum shot.

Magnum shot you're able to hit the enemy once and after that hit you are 2m out of range. If you run in you can get another in, and this may be repeatable, but at least requires some constant positioning to pull off.

Honestly, I would just say that knockbacks should be changed to apply cc immunity so that this can't be done with any ability. But by the sound of it, this sounds like an intended mechanic, just easily abused unfortunately.

On a side note, since I use bow, I might respec to change my magnum shot into draining shot for better knockback spamming in dire straits

timidobserver · July 2014

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I can confirm that there is no immunity from the knockback on magnum shot. A bow user can just spam you with it.

Good to know, thanks for testing.

I wonder if it keeps the enemy locked down as easily as with puncturing strikes, as the templar knockback is much shorter and keeps the target in range for the next strike to hit.

With Magnum shot/variants the knockback is 6m, while the max range is 10m. After two knockbacks you'll be out of range unless quickly advancing on the target.

But that would only be counting the knockback, so that applies to Draining Shot but not Magnum shot.

Magnum shot you're able to hit the enemy once and after that hit you are 2m out of range. If you run in you can get another in, and this may be repeatable, but at least requires some constant positioning to pull off.

Honestly, I would just say that knockbacks should be changed to apply cc immunity so that this can't be done with any ability. But by the sound of it, this sounds like an intended mechanic, just easily abused unfortunately.

On a side note, since I use bow, I might respec to change my magnum shot into draining shot for better knockback spamming in dire straits

I am not one of those theorcrafter types that test things thoroughly, so you might want to test this a bit more before changing your spec lol. What I thought I saw with magnum should could very well be wrong.