lol, you sir are clueless, this ability is very strong atm. and a part of many Fotm or Unbalanced Builds.... and you want it to make it stronger in some other way?

The point seems to elude you. The proposition is to change its mechanics because the toggle is very wonky to use in PvP, much like weapon swapping. It seems to be suffering from the same queueing issues. You don't wanna improve weapon swapping responsiveness either because it'll become too powerful, then?

Well, it was good in PvE in conjunction with siphoning spirit , elemntal drain and the old ult gain but now it is just absolute rubbish. Not even close to worth it for a fifth tier ability.

IceDread wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Baphomet
They certainly aren't going to get the myriad of actual problems fixed any faster if they burn their time changing skills that don't need to be changed in the first place. The just need to fix the unresponsiveness, which effects more than just Inferno. There's no reason to mess with the skill, except for the under performing Sea of Flames morph. Inferno isn't a bad skill, the morph Sea of Flames is garbage because the magicka restoring portion only triggers if Sea of Flames itself kills the target, but that's not nearly a large enough issue to rework the entire skill. A skill that's part of the meta builds mind you. If meta gamers tweaking builds for optimal performance use it, maybe there's nothing wrong with the skill and there happens to be something wrong with the way your using it. I'd ask them for some pro tips and pointers on using it if I were you.

About all I can offer you on the subject is use magicka potions while it's active. The recovery from magicka potions more than covers the cost. If you have issues trying to turn it off, just weapon swap and it'll shut off like any other toggle ability. Once they fix the actual problem of skill/weapon swap unresponsiveness that shouldn't be an issue anyhow.

How can you stay it's not a bad skill?

35 damage / second and you get no mana regen. Sounds like the worst skill ever seen in this game.

Thats why I don't use it. Its crap unless you have a specific setup for rapid MP returns, like restoration staffing and some of the light armor sets. Definitely not a good choice for anything other than those. And the radius isn't all that great with it either, less than talons

Obscure wrote: »

IceDread wrote: »

How can you stay it's not a bad skill?

35 damage / second and you get no mana regen. Sounds like the worst skill ever seen in this game.

Flame damage is the most supported element type for damage in the game. I do around 50 flame damage a second with it. Keep in mind every tick can crit, every tick generates ultimate, and every tick can proc a DoT like every other flame damage source. Pop a magicka pot while it's up and there's your magicka regen whilst it's active.

I say it's not a bad skill because there are clearly many factors being willfully ignored by players, such as yourself, that contribute to making it function in builds. You say it's only junk damage at the cost of magicka recovery, and that is an incomplete description of what that skill can do and be used for. Passives in the ardent flame line for example allow for players to use the skill to maintain a permanent 40% snare on everything in 5m. Suffice it to say there are ups and downs to many skills, some with more downs than others, but having used the skill myself in earlier versions of my present build I know first hand that it isn't bad at all.

Just a small correction, the snare has a 30% magnitude, not 40%.

Secondly, I'll ask you the question the other way around : What does Inferno (+morphs) gives you that Fiery Breath doesn't already do better?

Obscure wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

IceDread wrote: »

How can you stay it's not a bad skill?

35 damage / second and you get no mana regen. Sounds like the worst skill ever seen in this game.

Flame damage is the most supported element type for damage in the game. I do around 50 flame damage a second with it. Keep in mind every tick can crit, every tick generates ultimate, and every tick can proc a DoT like every other flame damage source. Pop a magicka pot while it's up and there's your magicka regen whilst it's active.

I say it's not a bad skill because there are clearly many factors being willfully ignored by players, such as yourself, that contribute to making it function in builds. You say it's only junk damage at the cost of magicka recovery, and that is an incomplete description of what that skill can do and be used for. Passives in the ardent flame line for example allow for players to use the skill to maintain a permanent 40% snare on everything in 5m. Suffice it to say there are ups and downs to many skills, some with more downs than others, but having used the skill myself in earlier versions of my present build I know first hand that it isn't bad at all.

Just a small correction, the snare has a 30% magnitude, not 40%.

Secondly, I'll ask you the question the other way around : What does Inferno (+morphs) gives you that Fiery Breath doesn't already do better?

I stand corrected then, I haven't looked at the passive in awhile, once upon a time in the PTS it was 40%.

That aside Fiery Breath gives you a 10m cone effect, Inferno gives you a 5m radius effect. One is better when your surrounded whilst the other is contingent on facing. Flames of Oblivion also increases critical rates, stacking with Molten Armaments, medium armor, critical rate weapons, and the thief stone for good measure, all come together to round out a substantial critical hit rate. Most certainly something that cannot be done with Fiery Breath (+morphs).

My argument concerning proper application in a build stems from learning to use said builds. I expect others to give such skills a fair shake before dismissal.

I see where you want to go, and it is true you can get a lot of critical hit chance with both Flame of Oblivion + Molten Armaments, but the issues comes again to mana sustain. Using those 2 skills are going to ask you to spam Molten Armament every 6sec and you will continualy loose magicka every 2sec while your recovery is at 0 giving you no room for magicka defensive/utility skills

You can indeed use potions and Restoration/Destruction staffs to gain magicka back, but anyone using another weapon set will be hugely penalize.

That magicka penalty is the only issue on that skill. If they would actualy remove that penalty it would put Inferno on par with Fiery Breath and each of both powers morphs would include their own flavour of effects opening up those skills to a larger variety of builds.

Is Inferno a bad power, no, it actualy has some good morphs and side effects. But right now, the magicka + penalty cost are just not worth for most of the possible builds out there.

Obscure wrote: »

@Brasseurfb16_ESO
As I said:

If meta gamers tweaking builds for optimal performance use it, maybe there's nothing wrong with the skill and there happens to be something wrong with the way your using it.

Every skill flat out isn't going to be viable for every build. That's the entire point of character building; one character may use things differently and often better than another character not built to do so.

Sorry but I have to respectfully disagree, the classes in this game are created around a base concept in mind. Those are supposed to be viable and balanced around the game. You also get the option to imrpove your skills even further by finding synergies between class abilities and weapon abilities with the freeform sytem allowing you to min/max your character.

In the case of Inferno, you are forced to min/max your character to get something out of a power that should techicaly be viable in the core concept of the class. And the worse of it is you actualy can do way better in your build if you just replace it with Fiery Breath.

When you need to start min/maxing a character to get something out of power, something is definitly wrong with the viability of that power because nobody shouldn't get that far to get something out of a power wich should supposely be vaible.

That's the point I'm trying to make.

Obscure wrote: »

That's before mentioning the meager cost associated with Flames of Oblivion and Molten Weapons, which I personally used in a Dual Wield spec. Sure it had issues with Magicka sustain, it was a medium armor dual wield spec, though the build wasn't at all "hugely penalized" by the use of those skills. It was actually a reasonable drain on my resources for what I was getting out of it, and once I threw in Warlock jewelry, it became vastly more sustainable. No dress or sticks required. Molten Weapons every 6 seconds worked as a stamina and ultimate battery that increased my crit rate for the duration along side Flames of Oblivion. In combination with the ultimate gain from AoE critical hits from Whirlwind and Ember Explosion I rapidly charged my ultimate which I would activate to replenish my resources...and burninate the country side...

Meager cost? That skill has certainly the worst dmg/magicka ratio in the entire game, the difference is you actualy loose the magicka over time instead of using it instantly for a lingering effect. To actualy solve part of that issue you rely on a 1min proc to get a bit of your magicka back but completely loose the passive magicka recovery benefits out of those same items by reducing your magicka regen to 0.

So basicaly you are giving up around an extra 20 magicka/sec from jewelry items to get a small magicka return every minute. And you call that min/maxing?

Obscure wrote: »

I could reliably drop a Standard or activate Magma Armor every 11-15 seconds so long as I was fighting 3 or more targets. Actually the higher the number of enemies the better the build performed. I recall tests where I deliberately pulled 10 VR zombies and my Standatd charged fast enough to cast twice before I killed them. Nothing tends to handle such harsh double standards.

Old news friend, but ultimate generation from critical hits got reduced and ultimate and Zenimax reduced the amount of target you can affect with those skills and the duration of Magma Armour, reducing the ultimate generation even further.

The point is, Inferno while it is definitly not a bad power on paper, it just hinders your build to the point you have to rely on min/maxing to actualy make it work, wich is just stupid.

Obscure wrote: »

Suffice it to say, if you don't like it, you're entitled to not like it. Personal preference however has no bearing on objective realities. Learn to use it or just leave it alone, your choice.

It has nothing to do about liking a skill or not, if you can't see how bad Inferno can hinder a build instead of actualy helping it and compare that skill to a similar power performing way better than it, just tell me. I shall stop this discussion right now and I will stop wasting your time.

@Brasseurfb16_ESO is correct in his assessment of the ability. If you build around it, you become a one trick pony. It does not promote or encourage the flexibility that is the base principle of the game/class design.

I love the concept behind the ability but it needs to be tweaked a little. As it stands, it is not really practical nor useful, which tells me that there is room for improvements.

Obscure wrote: »

@Brasseurfb16_ESO
The premise that every class skill must be viable for every possible configuration of build that can be created with the class is, in a word, impractical. That's just not how any class in any game that's ever been designed has ever worked. You find skills, you cater your build to those skills, and you ignore the skills that don't help you do what you do.

Have you ever played the Secret World? Because this game is a prime exemple that skills can be balanced around a viable concept and reward players for finding out synergies between the different trees.

Obscure wrote: »

Yes, Inferno has a more narrow build scope than Dark Talons. That's healthy. Classes need skills with narrow build scopes to encourage build diversity. Otherwise we have a sort of skill convergence where every player of the class conforms to the same build no matter what they try to do which removes the customization involved in character building, a long standing staple in RPGs. There are going to be builds that are bad at using some of their class skills and there are going to be builds that excel at using those very same skills. That was, is, and always will be the point of character customization.

Excuse me? Narrowing build scope promote build diversity? If people get 2 viable choices instead of 1, does that promote build diversity? If people can choose wich power they want to orient their character around (for isntance : more fire damage from their fire skills, armour penetration for melee attacks, or extra critical for some extra burst) they all offer options to different weapon/magicka builds, don't you think in that case it would open up build variety sinds you can get to similar level of min/maxing but with different types of flavours in those builds?

So again, if I follow your statement, narrowing power viability promotes build variety, ok.

So Templars and Nightblades should be adequate choices for min/maxing because their viable roles are much more narrowed compared to the two other classes? Oh, wait, no they don't because Dragon Knights and Sorcerers out perform both of those classes in most of their narrowed roles and can do other things aswell that those classes could have done if they had viable and versatile abilities that allowed them to go there.

Obscure wrote: »

Some skills aren't stand alone skills, they are pieces of larger puzzles deliberately put there to interest players who enjoy complex theory crafting. Inferno thus cannot hinder a good build. Good builds only use skills that benefit them. The only build Inferno can hinder are bad builds, and "bad" is a build style I have little concern or respect for; it's a transitional stage to becoming better, nothing more. If you don't like it you are well within your rights not to use it, no one is forcing you to even unlock it for use if you don't want to. I've pointed out how it can be used, how I used it personally, and pointed out that the top tier builds employed it differently than I.

No, a skill is a skill.

You use one because it offers you some form of utility in your build and gamestyle. All the additional benefits you get with the crossed synergies between those abilities are just the cherry on the cake. Nothing more.

And using cookie cutter build doesn't make someone a good player, it just shows he can copy past a build and wants to complete a challenge for the sake of completing it as fast as possible and not for the fun of fighting it in different ways.

A good player is someone who can outcome the odds with the current tool he has at his disposal. If you always choose the easy way, how can you even remotely begin to learn how to become a better player? That just makes no sense.

Obscure wrote: »

Your subjective opinion is you don't like Inferno and find Fiery Breath to be better. Mine is that Fiery Breath and Inferno aren't even remotely interchangeable options in a build as they do very different things; "better" isn't an objective metric in their regard. So again, don't like it? Just let it sit there and gather dust.

Nope I said Fiery Breath was better compared to Inferno because the Damage/Cost ratio of Inferno is vastly inferior to Fiery Breath and is not worth a spot in most of the builds unless you follow a very narrow route hoping to get something out of it, wich again could easely be replaced by Fiery breath because that skill is more versatile in many regards and is basicaly another AoE Dmg over time with different flavours on top of it.

The big difference is one works more like a debuff while the other is a buff, but their role is quite the same. Dealing damage over time to multiple ennemies. The morphs are different indeed but they just add an extra flavour on top of that role.

And no, sinds we are speaking about my subjective feelings, I can say you are definitly wrong. I actualy like inferno a lot, but I don't use it because the tradeoff I get to my build is not worth the the extra flavour I get from it.

So may I suggest you politely from refraining yourself from explaining what my subjective feelings are and speak objectively about the topic instead of derailing into some unconstructive feedback about myself.

Thank you!

Obscure wrote: »

@Brasseurfb16_ESO
I'll say it one more time then I'm done with this thread to nowhere:

If you don't like it, don't use it.

Thanks for your constructive output, and goodbye!

Baphomet, did you even try to examine his build? There is no point to CCs because he already has three defensive elements which renders him nearly immune to mob attacks save for some certain abilities. Why the *** would he care about CCs at that point when they're not an issue?


Secondly, the damage output of talons is far lower than Inferno + AoE. Since his perspective is solo (you can't activate the synergy) or perhaps someone else is already spamming talons and CCing them it becomes a matter of DPS racing in which case Inferno + AoE is performant.

I don't even see why you would need inhale either when it only hits THREE *** targets.

Are there better set ups for purely AoEing, yes most certainly, but is this set up competitive and viable under many conditions, yes probably.

Any suggestions targeting that build should be skill replacements that are better in that set up or a third path that outpaces that build by far in terms of damage output and survivability.

"Baphomet wrote: »

... .

After running the numbers again you're absolutely right, apologies for the knee jerk reaction/ignorance etc.

The only trick to inferno is if you're using it as a magicka dump for melee based abilities such as wrecking blow/executioner.

However, inhale is not suitable replacement as the throughput is lower with a stamina/weapon based build which Obscure is suggesting/using.