Women and their role in ESO? Too many fighters?

DarkWombat

I need to try to make this post as "delicate" as I can without pissing people off and sounding sexist.

I think with an MMO, Zenimax has tried to appeal to a larger audience, and because of this, the amount of women NPCs who gives you quests are staggering. And a lot of them are warriors, powerful mages, thieves, etc.

I dont seem to remember this many women as front line fighters in Skyrim, Oblivion, etc. They seem to have had roles which matched the medieval times more accurately. In others words, cooking, at home, etc, while the men spent the time out there as front-line fighters.

I am currently in Bangkorai, and the number of NPCs that have given me quests is like 75% women, 25% men. And each and everytime the woman is an awesome fighter, etc...

So my question is this, did Zenimax make a decision to even things out a bit while disregarding both classic Elder Scrolls and typical medieval canon?

Eris

Classic elder scrolls is in the future of ESO. Therefore, it is likely that the oppression of females took place sometime in the intervening years. So, the future looks bleak for women in the Elder Scrolls universe. Sadness.

On the other hand, yay for the females of the ESO era!

Nooblet

In my entire time playing, I did not even notice at all. You might be sexist.

Nox_Aeterna

Im amazed , you actually remember enough quest givers to make this comparison.

Man , woman , dog , skull ... All the same in the end, with very few exceptions of cool NPCs.

tanthil

I'm suprised we don't get more sandwiches as quest rewards

Haminiha

Now that you mention it.... That is very true....

Daethz

Men are much physically stronger than Women, this is not a sexist statement at all, it is a scientifically prooven fact aswell as common sense.
Two Warriors, One female one male with the same exact training, both average body builds for their genders, its very, very likely the male would win if they sparred.

Im not sure but I think the majority of women in ESO have been mages, archers, If im wrong, they should be. - Mages and Archers would be skill based, not brute force strength.

And if you find my comments "Sexist" Just think, In real life the vast majority of combat today has nothing to do with physical strength, If women truly are better at "Multitasking" Mabye they would be better at taking down multiple enemy's with a gun? Just a thought.

Nooblet

Daethz wrote: »

Men are much physically stronger than Women, this is not a sexist statement at all, it is a scientifically prooven fact aswell as common sense.
Two Warriors, One female one male with the same exact training, both average body builds for their genders, its very, very likely the male would win if they sparred.

Im not sure but I think the majority of women in ESO have been mages, archers, If im wrong, they should be. - Mages and Archers would be skill based, not brute force strength.

And if you find my comments "Sexist" Just think, In real life the vast majority of combat today has nothing to do with physical strength, If women truly are better at "Multitasking" Mabye they would be better at taking down multiple enemy's with a gun? Just a thought.

Your comments are 100% sexist fyi. And Noone in the world can actually "multitask" You can do tasks, but you split your concentration between them, don't actually do them at the same time.

While men might be naturally stronger, there are many other attributes that contribute to a fight.

rawne1980b16_ESO

This thread, it's going places.

Arsenic_Touch

Nooblet wrote: »

In my entire time playing, I did not even notice at all. You might be sexist.

There's no might about it. The first line pretty much set the tone.

edit: HAHA. ZoS I love how you handle these things.

DarkWombat

Nooblet seems to enjoy throwing around the word sexist. You know what they say? Calling someone sexist or racist where it does not exist is just as bad as being sexist or racist itself.

Women are better at multitasking because that's how their brains work. Naturally they are able to concentrate on many more things at once then men can. AM I now being sexist towards men?

People have to get over themselves. Men and women are different. Stop acting like they are the same.

Daethz

Nooblet wrote: »

Daethz wrote: »

Men are much physically stronger than Women, this is not a sexist statement at all, it is a scientifically prooven fact aswell as common sense.
Two Warriors, One female one male with the same exact training, both average body builds for their genders, its very, very likely the male would win if they sparred.

Im not sure but I think the majority of women in ESO have been mages, archers, If im wrong, they should be. - Mages and Archers would be skill based, not brute force strength.

And if you find my comments "Sexist" Just think, In real life the vast majority of combat today has nothing to do with physical strength, If women truly are better at "Multitasking" Mabye they would be better at taking down multiple enemy's with a gun? Just a thought.

Your comments are 100% sexist fyi. And Noone in the world can actually "multitask" You can do tasks, but you split your concentration between them, don't actually do them at the same time.

While men might be naturally stronger, there are many other attributes that contribute to a fight.

Sure, Women have a Empathy advantage when it comes to combat. Men (Normal Men) don't want to harm women, it is instinct.
There is a reason back in the day when villages where pillaged and burned that the Women and Children where spared from the bloodshed.

I don't think natural common sense is sexist. Some spider breeds the men have no chance to combat a female, they are simply tiny and weak in comparison.
I would say to humans Men and Women are very similar in strength, only men grow larger bones and muscles. These larger bones and muscles have obvious Bonuses when it comes to swinging a Melee weapon.
Plus, in real life anyway, men are more likely to work out to grow large muscles just to show off, while women generally don't want to grow enormous muscles.

I think of myself as a Realist fyi, if a orange is orange ill point it out even if 99% of people disagree based on cultural preferences.

rawne1980b16_ESO

DarkWombat wrote: »

Women are better at multitasking because that's how their brains work. Naturally they are able to concentrate on many more things at once then men can. AM I now being sexist towards men?

Yes, yes you are.

I can watch TV and drink a beer at the same time ..... multitasking at it's finest.

d0e1ow

Daethz wrote: »

Men are much physically stronger than Women, this is not a sexist statement at all, it is a scientifically prooven fact aswell as common sense.
Two Warriors, One female one male with the same exact training, both average body builds for their genders, its very, very likely the male would win if they sparred.

Im not sure but I think the majority of women in ESO have been mages, archers, If im wrong, they should be. - Mages and Archers would be skill based, not brute force strength.

And if you find my comments "Sexist" Just think, In real life the vast majority of combat today has nothing to do with physical strength, If women truly are better at "Multitasking" Mabye they would be better at taking down multiple enemy's with a gun? Just a thought.

This is a fantasy game though, it's not supposed to be an accurate reflection of reality. How many things happen in this game that are actually impossible, yet they are met with no complaints? Why? Because it is fantasy. I am an archer in real life and some of the stuff you can do with bows in this game are hilarious, not to mention the way in which many of the characters stand while shooting/drawing which would be considered completely incorrect. But it's fantasy.

Why when it comes to the way women are represented as being generally equal in all respects to men suddenly this fantasy is not O.K. anymore? I'm seriously asking you this.

Yes, women and men are different in real life, but this is not real life.

d0e1ow

Daethz wrote: »

Sure, Women have a Empathy advantage when it comes to combat. Men (Normal Men) don't want to harm women, it is instinct.
There is a reason back in the day when villages where pillaged and burned that the Women and Children where spared from the bloodshed.
.

Sorry, but this is completely wrong. Women and children were (and to this day in many places) [Mod Snip] sold into slavery.

They hardly were "not harmed." Oftentimes non-virgin women were killed on the spot as they were not fit to marry. (See Old Testament histories of the Israelites.)

Every civilization to ever exist has committed wartime atrocities and brutalities against women and children.

DarkWombat

d0e1ow wrote: »

Daethz wrote: »

Men are much physically stronger than Women, this is not a sexist statement at all, it is a scientifically prooven fact aswell as common sense.
Two Warriors, One female one male with the same exact training, both average body builds for their genders, its very, very likely the male would win if they sparred.

Im not sure but I think the majority of women in ESO have been mages, archers, If im wrong, they should be. - Mages and Archers would be skill based, not brute force strength.

And if you find my comments "Sexist" Just think, In real life the vast majority of combat today has nothing to do with physical strength, If women truly are better at "Multitasking" Mabye they would be better at taking down multiple enemy's with a gun? Just a thought.

This is a fantasy game though, it's not supposed to be an accurate reflection of reality. How many things happen in this game that are actually impossible, yet they are met with no complaints? Why? Because it is fantasy. I am an archer in real life and some of the stuff you can do with bows in this game are hilarious, not to mention the way in which many of the characters stand while shooting/drawing which would be considered completely incorrect. But it's fantasy.

Why when it comes to the way women are represented as being generally equal in all respects to men suddenly this fantasy is not O.K. anymore? I'm seriously asking you this.

Yes, women and men are different in real life, but this is not real life.

Yes it is a fantasy game but if you bothered to read my original post I was talking about it within the context of the Elder Scrolls universe and how I have never seen this many women on the front lines of battle.

ZOS_MichelleA

Hey there, everyone. Please keep this thread clean. We know it can be a sensitive topic, but we are going to keep it open for the time being. If you're ever in doubt as you're about to post something, please check the Code of Conduct first.

Daethz

d0e1ow wrote: »

Daethz wrote: »

Sure, Women have a Empathy advantage when it comes to combat. Men (Normal Men) don't want to harm women, it is instinct.
There is a reason back in the day when villages where pillaged and burned that the Women and Children where spared from the bloodshed.
.

Sorry, but this is completely wrong. Women and children were (and to this day in many places) rap-ed and sold into slavery.

They hardly were "not harmed." Oftentimes non-virgin women were killed on the spot as they were not fit to marry. (See Old Testament histories of the Israelites.)

Every civilization to ever exist has committed wartime atrocities and brutalities against women and children.

I never said they weren't harmed, but the people capturing them dident see them as a iminate danger and dident kill them during the invasion unlike their older, male counterparts.

[Mod snip]

All games are based on reality, even fantasy ones.

d0e1ow

DarkWombat wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

Daethz wrote: »

Men are much physically stronger than Women, this is not a sexist statement at all, it is a scientifically prooven fact aswell as common sense.
Two Warriors, One female one male with the same exact training, both average body builds for their genders, its very, very likely the male would win if they sparred.

Im not sure but I think the majority of women in ESO have been mages, archers, If im wrong, they should be. - Mages and Archers would be skill based, not brute force strength.

And if you find my comments "Sexist" Just think, In real life the vast majority of combat today has nothing to do with physical strength, If women truly are better at "Multitasking" Mabye they would be better at taking down multiple enemy's with a gun? Just a thought.

This is a fantasy game though, it's not supposed to be an accurate reflection of reality. How many things happen in this game that are actually impossible, yet they are met with no complaints? Why? Because it is fantasy. I am an archer in real life and some of the stuff you can do with bows in this game are hilarious, not to mention the way in which many of the characters stand while shooting/drawing which would be considered completely incorrect. But it's fantasy.

Why when it comes to the way women are represented as being generally equal in all respects to men suddenly this fantasy is not O.K. anymore? I'm seriously asking you this.

Yes, women and men are different in real life, but this is not real life.

Yes it is a fantasy game but if you bothered to read my original post I was talking about it within the context of the Elder Scrolls universe and how I have never seen this many women on the front lines of battle.

But why does it even matter? Are your observations of something canon, or simple just a shift in the game's tone towards a nod to diversity as years have passed?

There are also gay and lesbian characters in this game. Have there been gay and lesbian characters in other Elder Scrolls games? If not, does having them suddenly appear here mean it is at odds with the spirit of the universe somehow?

Unless they previously outlined the roles of women in a clear and rote way, simply seeing more women in various roles here in ESO doesn't offend the nature of the universe in any way as far as I'm concerned. I certainly hadn't noticed anything until I read this post.

In all the other Elder Scrolls games I have always played a sword and shield wielding warrior woman. For me, the women in Elder Scrolls have always been just as awesome as the men, because I've always been running around as the strongest warrior in the land who just so happens to be a woman.

Reymas

TES games have always shown gender roles far more equally than our own world.

/thread

Daethz

Eh, I just feel even a Fantasy Game should follow the guidelines of nature to a point.
I do believe a women could become the strongest warrior in the world in reallife, only it would take Alot more dedication than it would from a man.
In a fantasy game such as ESO you could become the strongest "Warrior" in the game by vaporizing everyone with powerful magic, whilas we actually have a real world counterpart to magic, guns.

The game as it stands dosent bother me, my only point is it is far more likely a man would become a physical (Melee wielding) warrior than a women, it is natural.

Daethz

Reymas wrote: »

TES games have always shown gender roles far more equally than our own world.

/thread

Might not be true in a few years. Every year the military has less need for its super strict physical rules.
A woman can pilot a Hellfire Drone just as good, as a man, potentially even better, but we have not studied stuff like that yet as far as I know.

- Also, Gender Roles go both ways, Some men really want to be "House Husbands" and for probably the first time in history that is actually allowed.

Phantax

If you ask me they should be at home, Skyrim got it right. You married somebody then they stayed at home, made your food, cleaned the house and did some gardening.
I mean geez, I go out all day, hunt, earn gold, I even built a house for Jode's sake. The least my wife can do is get my bloody sweetroll ready when I get home !



I so hope my wife doesn't read this post....lol

Singular

So that means the men are all lost b/c they can't ask anyone for help or directions. All your quest givers are women b/c they can.



Kidding. No idea why more would be women - better looking, appealing to the generally larger male audience while providing strong role models for the npc children.

Spiritreaver_ESO

DarkWombat wrote: »

I need to try to make this post as "delicate" as I can without pissing people off and sounding sexist.

I think with an MMO, Zenimax has tried to appeal to a larger audience, and because of this, the amount of women NPCs who gives you quests are staggering. And a lot of them are warriors, powerful mages, thieves, etc.

I dont seem to remember this many women as front line fighters in Skyrim, Oblivion, etc. They seem to have had roles which matched the medieval times more accurately. In others words, cooking, at home, etc, while the men spent the time out there as front-line fighters.

I am currently in Bangkorai, and the number of NPCs that have given me quests is like 75% women, 25% men. And each and everytime the woman is an awesome fighter, etc...

So my question is this, did Zenimax make a decision to even things out a bit while disregarding both classic Elder Scrolls and typical medieval canon?

I've always seen TES games as being gender neutral, which is one of the reasons it has always appealed to me.

I'm a big dude, 6'6", 285lbs, and i'm from the American SE region. That said, i've always liked kickass characters in books, movies, etc. Never mattered to me what gender either and in fact looking back many of my favorites have been women. Ripley, Samus Aran, Wilma Deering, Red Sonja; i could really keep on going here but you get my point.

In a TES game, being kickass isn't tied to a gender. Hell, in Skyrim the Nord Jarl of Whiterun's second in command was not just a woman, but an Elf.

Answer to your question is a resounding no.

drschplatt

If you want to ask questions like these, you could also ask questions about the character creation options. It's actually quite challenging to make a normal looking, but unattractive character in this game. I've never been a huge fan of Barbie soldiers in fantasy games, and so I try to make my toons somewhat unattractive and less of a sex symbol. My sorcerer looks like she lives on a diet of Twinkies and Mt. Dew, but even under all those delicious rolls of lard, she has that model look to her and it drives me nuts. I have a male character I tried to make all scraggly and beaten down, but under his eyepatch and goofy messed up hair, he still looks like Brad Pitt.

ZOS simply made character models, and quest lines that attract hormones. It's as simple as that.

jesterstear

I think there's a problem not just with gender, but with the physical size difference between different player characters. How would a short Bosmer not be at a disadvantage against a hulking Nord in melee combat. Difficult to resolve unless we throw that whole system out and start basing a character's height/weight on their Stamina and Health scores (getting steadily taller as the game progresses... must be something in the food).



Abnur Tharn for example would be at a disadvantage against that female, her reach would be cause him problems at the very least, by the time he gets within touching distance , fingers, hands and other appendages might have gone missing.

Also the OP comment about archery being skill not strength based, an MMO truism with not much basis in reality. War longbows had a tremendous pull, it took years of training to develop the strength necessary to penetrate armour at range.

Still, in dangerous times I'd want every female to have their own set of armour, shield and a weapon, and be trained how to block, evade and parry. Not to charge recklessly in like a bezerker , dual wield or 2h but just to thwart incoming attacks till help arrives/attrition the attacker with spells.

A population could loose 90% of it's males in a war and recover, but if it looses 90% of the females, it's done.

Erris

I absolutely love that there are strong female characters in this game, and I'm thrilled that gay and lesbian characters exist here and no one thinks it's out of the ordinary. This is not Earth, so who's to say that males and females are not built exactly the same, with the same strengths and weaknesses. It's a fantasy game, so you can use your imagination to build and play a character you like. As for the original question, well I haven't noticed more female quest givers than males. Honestly I don't really care as long as I see some of each when I go to town, and they're not always in traditional male/female roles.

mrskinskull

Eris wrote: »

Classic elder scrolls is in the future of ESO. Therefore, it is likely that the oppression of females took place sometime in the intervening years. So, the future looks bleak for women in the Elder Scrolls universe. Sadness.

On the other hand, yay for the females of the ESO era!

Agreed.

goatlyonesub17_ESO

DarkWombat wrote: »

I need to try to make this post as "delicate" as I can without pissing people off and sounding sexist.

I think with an MMO, Zenimax has tried to appeal to a larger audience, and because of this, the amount of women NPCs who gives you quests are staggering. And a lot of them are warriors, powerful mages, thieves, etc.

I dont seem to remember this many women as front line fighters in Skyrim, Oblivion, etc. They seem to have had roles which matched the medieval times more accurately. In others words, cooking, at home, etc, while the men spent the time out there as front-line fighters.

I am currently in Bangkorai, and the number of NPCs that have given me quests is like 75% women, 25% men. And each and everytime the woman is an awesome fighter, etc...

...while the men are effete, whiny cowards. Yes, I've noticed. And it's pretty much everywhere in ESO, not just Bangkorai. Every time you turn around, an NPC is telling you something like:

"You'll need to speak to our captain. You can find HER down by the docks."

or

"[Gender-ambiguous name] was a great hero. SHE once took on three trolls and defeated them."

I've taken to mocking that kind of thing. It's felt like getting smashed in the face with a meringue pie every twenty minutes. Somewhere between Bethesda and Zenimax, leftist politics got pushed into the game, making it less excellent than it might have been.

I mean, think about it. What is it that an army needs to win victory? Soldiers. Where do soldiers come from? Their mommies. What would happen if you put those mommies out on the battlefield? Most of them would die. What would happen to the side that had fielded their mommies in combat? It would lose the war, at least eventually.

Conversely, what usually happens to women put into combat roles in real life, as the first battles loom imminently? Most of them get pregnant so they can go home on medical discharges, leaving their units understrength.

Yeah, this is a fantasy game. But ask me to suspend my disbelief about something else.

danny.fidlerb16_ESO

I'm a male playing a female character. I like the switch up. But the original poster is spot on in his observation. There are far too many women as warriors compared to any fantasy or real world experience. I personally, like the original poster, don't see any issues with this based on the grounds of sex. But strange is strange. And with the vast amount of dialogue and back story in this game such a major departure from any normal, especially the ES world, one would think that we would have some clarification.

Why? Because it is so far outside any norm we know of in this canon. Not understanding this is not sexism. It isn't wrong to question if something seems amiss. In fact it is good to question. Maybe it isnt what the creates intended and it has been an oversight up to now.

Im a male feminist. I didn't have a father growing up. I had a mother who was a strong and confident role model for me. I feel woman are and should be treated equal in all aspects of life. No question at all about this.

Yet I noticed this disparity in the sexes as well.