The problem With Root Mechanics

Brizz

POST retitled due to derailment. This is NOT a post about Bolt Escape.

Zenimax got it right when it comes to the "Break Free" mechanic - giving you immunity to cc for a short duration when you spend the stamina to do it. The same treatment should be applied to Roll Dodge to break roots.

That being said, abilities that allow you to "escape" should not remove or ignore roots. The player should have to have the awareness to first roll dodge out of the root before trying to escape. This needs to be applied to all charges, vanishes and teleports.

Don't remove or change the trademark abilities for each class, change the mechanics of roots to allow skillful players to have the advantage.

casselna_ESO

No, the problem with Bolt Escape is that it uses MAGICKA. Stamina is solely reserved to break free or dodge roll and magicka is used to run like a little school girl with her skirt over her head, or blast you with spells.

It's *so* biased to being a spell caster in PvP.

Make BE use stamina and I guarantee that sh*t will be balanced quickly

Asava

That would guarantee *** alright....

Brizz

casselna_ESO wrote: »

No, the problem with Bolt Escape is that it uses MAGICKA. Stamina is solely reserved to break free or dodge roll and magicka is used to run like a little school girl with her skirt over her head, or blast you with spells.

It's *so* biased to being a spell caster in PvP.

Make BE use stamina and I guarantee that sh*t will be balanced quickly

Disagreed. Bolt escape acts as a roll dodge when it comes to roots, giving them a lot more stamina to waste on Break Free alone. If they were required to roll dodge anything, then they would have to use Bolt Escape as an actual escape while they regen more stamina.

If you are running out of Stamina using abilities then you are using too many weapon skill abilities.

Asava

A sorc gets to break out of cc twice then it's game over. They have enough stamina for 2 cc breaks without any blocking.

Brizz

Asava wrote: »

A sorc gets to break out of cc twice then it's game over. They have enough stamina for 2 cc breaks without any blocking.

and that is the EXACT same for other classes. The problem with Sorcerers is that they never had to learn how to survive without Bolt Escape, and so they feel like it is the only thing at their disposal. Not true at all.

Niffo

Asava wrote: »

A sorc gets to break out of cc twice then it's game over. They have enough stamina for 2 cc breaks without any blocking.

Everyone has the same cost on breaking out of stamina, costs aren't different for each class.

Glurin

Brizz wrote: »

casselna_ESO wrote: »

No, the problem with Bolt Escape is that it uses MAGICKA. Stamina is solely reserved to break free or dodge roll and magicka is used to run like a little school girl with her skirt over her head, or blast you with spells.

It's *so* biased to being a spell caster in PvP.

Make BE use stamina and I guarantee that sh*t will be balanced quickly

Disagreed. Bolt escape acts as a roll dodge when it comes to roots, giving them a lot more stamina to waste on Break Free alone. If they were required to roll dodge anything, then they would have to use Bolt Escape as an actual escape while they regen more stamina.

If you are running out of Stamina using abilities then you are using too many weapon skill abilities.

Um, no it doesn't. When you're rooted, you can't use BE to break out. You have to roll dodge first, then BE.

Niffo

Glurin wrote: »

Um, no it doesn't. When you're rooted, you can't use BE to break out. You have to roll dodge first, then BE.

You can Bolt Escape while rooted, immobilize doesn't stop you from using Bolt Escape.

Glurin

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Um, no it doesn't. When you're rooted, you can't use BE to break out. You have to roll dodge first, then BE.

You can Bolt Escape while rooted, immobilize doesn't stop you from using Bolt Escape.

And they are still rooted. Again, it doesn't break the root.

casselna_ESO

Glurin wrote: »

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Um, no it doesn't. When you're rooted, you can't use BE to break out. You have to roll dodge first, then BE.

You can Bolt Escape while rooted, immobilize doesn't stop you from using Bolt Escape.

And they are still rooted. Again, it doesn't break the root.

But what does it matter that they are still rooted if they can still move (using BE) while rooted?

Exactly.

Glurin

casselna_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Um, no it doesn't. When you're rooted, you can't use BE to break out. You have to roll dodge first, then BE.

You can Bolt Escape while rooted, immobilize doesn't stop you from using Bolt Escape.

And they are still rooted. Again, it doesn't break the root.

But what does it matter that they are still rooted if they can still move (using BE) while rooted?

Exactly.

They have to burn magicka and magicka regen to do it if they're not gonna break the root. That's an awfully expensive way to deal with having your shoelaces tied together. Especially if your mana pool is your primary resource for offensive abilities.

casselna_ESO

Glurin wrote: »

casselna_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Um, no it doesn't. When you're rooted, you can't use BE to break out. You have to roll dodge first, then BE.

You can Bolt Escape while rooted, immobilize doesn't stop you from using Bolt Escape.

And they are still rooted. Again, it doesn't break the root.

But what does it matter that they are still rooted if they can still move (using BE) while rooted?

Exactly.

They have to burn magicka and magicka regen to do it if they're not gonna break the root. That's an awfully expensive way to deal with having your shoelaces tied together. Especially if your mana pool is your primary resource for offensive abilities.

But what does it matter if they can bolt 3 or 4 times or more and get entirely out of the fight? Don't need offensive abilities if you flee the battle and just regen up comfily away from the foray.

That.is.the.problem.

Glurin

Yes, yes, I know you have a problem with people being able to run away from you. That doesn't mean that there is an actual problem though.

Niffo

Glurin wrote: »

Yes, yes, I know you have a problem with people being able to run away from you. That doesn't mean that there is an actual problem though.

Problem isn't people getting away, its that only one class can do it, while all the others die. Sorcerers can keep saying people are upset about not getting a kill, that own't make it the reason for people talking about Bolt Escape.

Brizz

Glurin wrote: »

Yes, yes, I know you have a problem with people being able to run away from you. That doesn't mean that there is an actual problem though.

It's a problem for everyone - don't make this about one person.

Glurin wrote: »

casselna_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Um, no it doesn't. When you're rooted, you can't use BE to break out. You have to roll dodge first, then BE.

You can Bolt Escape while rooted, immobilize doesn't stop you from using Bolt Escape.

And they are still rooted. Again, it doesn't break the root.

But what does it matter that they are still rooted if they can still move (using BE) while rooted?

Exactly.

They have to burn magicka and magicka regen to do it if they're not gonna break the root. That's an awfully expensive way to deal with having your shoelaces tied together. Especially if your mana pool is your primary resource for offensive abilities.

Your point is that it is expensive to break cc? Wasn't that exactly my point in the original post? The only difference is that other classes roll dodge 3-4 times and are out of stamina while sorcerers can teleport across the map 9-10 times easily, while still maintaining an entire stamina bar for roll dodge or break free.

1. Roll Dodging out of roots should give immunity for 5 seconds just like Break Free
2. Teleport / charge / vanish should not remove root.

Rooting indefinably is bad design and has no counter.
Escaping indefinably is bad design and has no counter.

Glurin

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Yes, yes, I know you have a problem with people being able to run away from you. That doesn't mean that there is an actual problem though.

Problem isn't people getting away, its that only one class can do it, while all the others die. Sorcerers can keep saying people are upset about not getting a kill, that own't make it the reason for people talking about Bolt Escape.

And you can say only sorcerers can run away as much as you like, it still won't make it true. Fact is, people getting away is exactly what all these BE whine threads keep boiling down to as the problem.

Niffo

Glurin wrote: »

And you can say only sorcerers can run away as much as you like, it still won't make it true. Fact is, people getting away is exactly what all these BE whine threads keep boiling down to as the problem.

What class abilities let other people escape at the rate Bolt Escape does?

Harakh

Glurin wrote: »

casselna_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Um, no it doesn't. When you're rooted, you can't use BE to break out. You have to roll dodge first, then BE.

You can Bolt Escape while rooted, immobilize doesn't stop you from using Bolt Escape.

And they are still rooted. Again, it doesn't break the root.

But what does it matter that they are still rooted if they can still move (using BE) while rooted?

Exactly.

They have to burn magicka and magicka regen to do it if they're not gonna break the root. That's an awfully expensive way to deal with having your shoelaces tied together. Especially if your mana pool is your primary resource for offensive abilities.

And why does the teleport of the nb not work while rooted?

BE should work like Telport from NB rooted = you cannot move from your location if you dont use cc break.

Mendoze

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Yes, yes, I know you have a problem with people being able to run away from you. That doesn't mean that there is an actual problem though.

Problem isn't people getting away, its that only one class can do it, while all the others die. Sorcerers can keep saying people are upset about not getting a kill, that own't make it the reason for people talking about Bolt Escape.

Could you tell what exactly sorcerer can do that other classes can't do, except use bolt escape? And please don't say they have pets, this is PVP forum and those are totally useless in PVP. Now lets see, NBs can stealth during fight, templars can heal without resto staff and DKs...well I don't even know where to start. So what is so special about sorcerer without BE? I do agree with people that say that sorcerer should not be able to bolt escape when they are rooted, but all other whining is just bull****.

Nijjion

@casselna_ESO

Damn man that is the perfect solution for BE... Using Stamina... first time I heard about it and perfect way to balance it.

Give yourself a star and not even being sarcastic... that is brilliant to balance the skill.

Granted it would give them more magicka to cast spells but oh well, I'd take that and have BE only being able to be casted 4 times on a full stamina bar.

Glurin wrote: »

And you can say only sorcerers can run away as much as you like, it still won't make it true. Fact is, people getting away is exactly what all these BE whine threads keep boiling down to as the problem.

Well it is the problem though. Not sure if it's your first mmo or first RvR MMO but having mobility/get aways makes you LEAGUES ahead of everyone else in a RvR game... You can pick and choose which fights you want. If you *** up and get caught... doesn't matter you can get out of it. It's very unfair for just 1 class to have this power.

Noone had this option in DAoC and WaR and you had to fight it out pretty so win or die... GW2...well just say the least if you wanted to be competitive you had to roll Warrior, thief or mesmer as they had the best mobility/get aways.

ESO is advertised to be equal opportunity game... If you want to be competitive in roaming like in RvR games do we really want it to be down to 1 (or 2 maybe) classes in ESO rather than all 4 as it should be?

Before people figured it out vampire mist form was alright as a get away for everyone but roots and bash made it not so good now.

ForTheRealm

There is no problems with Sorcs' BE in PVP... right...
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/837860

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

casselna_ESO wrote: »

No, the problem with Bolt Escape is that it uses MAGICKA. Stamina is solely reserved to break free or dodge roll and magicka is used to run like a little school girl with her skirt over her head, or blast you with spells.

It's *so* biased to being a spell caster in PvP.

Make BE use stamina and I guarantee that sh*t will be balanced quickly

First of all blocking costs stamina and if you're not specced for it then it drains in notime. As a magika user im perma stamina starved.

Ohh, turning bolt escape into a stamina ability would allow sorcs in certain sittuation to shine -> bolt away like mad AND use full magika pool to nuke enemy dead, im sure ppl would complain even more if i had double the magika after doing a few bolt escapes

Further more, i could just spec as a stamina build AND have access to yet another gap closer. You realize there are cost reduction mechanisms inplace for both stamina and magika right?

What you are saying is to turn a magika ability for a pure spell (reffering to the spell/melee distinction ZoS seems to be making) class into a stamina ability..that would not solve any problem at all...ooook....

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

Nijjion wrote: »

@casselna_ESO
...

Well it is the problem though. Not sure if it's your first mmo or first RvR MMO but having mobility/get aways makes you LEAGUES ahead of everyone else in a RvR game... You can pick and choose which fights you want. If you *** up and get caught... doesn't matter you can get out of it. It's very unfair for just 1 class to have this power.

Noone had this option in DAoC and WaR and you had to fight it out pretty so win or die... GW2...well just say the least if you wanted to be competitive you had to roll Warrior, thief or mesmer as they had the best mobility/get aways.

ESO is advertised to be equal opportunity game... If you want to be competitive in roaming like in RvR games do we really want it to be down to 1 (or 2 maybe) classes in ESO rather than all 4 as it should be?

Before people figured it out vampire mist form was alright as a get away for everyone but roots and bash made it not so good now.

Hmm..i can think of plenty of classes that had high mobility and/or tools that raised their survivability by alot more in DAOC than BE raises the sorc survivability in ESO (any stealther class hmm.. or should i even bother to mention the minstrel's eat my dust card?). Those skills had cd's though and invariably you had access to as many skills as you wanted at the same time, how can you even compare it to the 5+1 ESO skill system?

NakedSnake

The distance of BE needs to be reduced... That is all.

Brizz

Everyone in this thread is derailing it. Stop talking about bolt escape, it's about roots.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

NakedSnake wrote: »

The distance of BE needs to be reduced... That is all.

BE has shortest distance from all gap closers by at least 5 feet or if you want that in percent than by over 25%. With already gimped utility for anything else besides escaping i have to strongly disagree with your sugestion, if distance is chopped off then the skill will be broken and not even worth slotting.

Its like saying: DK can kill me with banner, make banner do less damage/debuff/buff effects so it cant kill me anymore.

I dont defend BE as it is, the magika debuff is plain stupid and yes, people using it to teleport all over the place instead of fighting is also stupid. There were plenty of good ideas in boosting it as a fighting skill and lowering its usability as an escape skill. Best of them i read on this forums was to reward people with resources for hitting players with it but penalize the sorc (with resources/debuffs/whatever, could even be a short stun) if it fails to bolt trough players but the gains if hitting a player should be equal to the losses of not hitting one..as to make it viable. I want to use it in combat, not to chase other sorcs and picking resource nodes. Just my view i guess and how i'd solve this, you are free to disagree.

Nijjion

Glurin wrote: »

Hmm..i can think of plenty of classes that had high mobility and/or tools that raised their survivability by alot more in DAOC than BE raises the sorc survivability in ESO (any stealther class hmm.. or should i even bother to mention the minstrel's eat my dust card?). Those skills had cd's though and invariably you had access to as many skills as you wanted at the same time, how can you even compare it to the 5+1 ESO skill system?

Yeah you are right but come on are you saying 5/10 minute CD skills are the same as a skill that can be spammed.

It's day and night difference. Give BE a 5/10 CD minute timer for a few uses then

Kraigan

Mendoze wrote: »

Could you tell what exactly sorcerer can do that other classes can't do, except use bolt escape?

How about AOE silence via Negate Magic and its morphs for one. Anyone else find it odd that the caster archetype is the one that gets this ability?

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

Nijjion wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Hmm..i can think of plenty of classes that had high mobility and/or tools that raised their survivability by alot more in DAOC than BE raises the sorc survivability in ESO (any stealther class hmm.. or should i even bother to mention the minstrel's eat my dust card?). Those skills had cd's though and invariably you had access to as many skills as you wanted at the same time, how can you even compare it to the 5+1 ESO skill system?

Yeah you are right but come on are you saying 5/10 minute CD skills are the same as a skill that can be spammed.

It's day and night difference. Give BE a 5/10 CD minute timer for a few uses then

I'd love a skill sistem where im not restricted to 5+1 and sure, cds are so common to many mmos becouse...well...its a good way to give the players a taste of power and a good tool at that BUT prevents them from abusing it.

I love diversity, DAOC diversity was sweet, ESO..well...there is none, many skills broken and you're preaty much left with a few BIS skills like BE, to stay on the topic

In DAOC i could use 10 different skills for the same purpose, with or withouth CDS (purge was the exception to that, you didnt have the idiotproof break out of cc system that ESO uses). Sure, they all had CDS so i had to do smart management but it was fun. In ESO i end up doing the same thing with 1 skill withouth CD by smashing that button over and over, well...less fun

Now if they would to add a cd to BE, as you say, in all fairness, a cd should be added to the other classes spammable "OP" skills and light/heavy atacks...and gap closers and so on and so on...in the end it will just make the fight more static/slower and you do not have any skills to rotate..just your 5+1'...10+2 if you were to ignore how unreliable weapon swapping is with all the latency.

Conclusion: a CD system will not work with the skill limitation from ESO

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

Kraigan wrote: »

Mendoze wrote: »

Could you tell what exactly sorcerer can do that other classes can't do, except use bolt escape?

How about AOE silence via Negate Magic and its morphs for one. Anyone else find it odd that the caster archetype is the one that gets this ability?

Yes, and we all know how bad diversity is, not sure how we missed it! Quickly, remove or nerf it into oblivion! We dont want the sorc to have anything else that other classes do not get access to...i wonder why noone coplains about pets...you know...sorc is only class that gets pets...

..meybe becouse they are broken beyound useless?

Every class has some unique skills in its skill trees that the other classes cant match and that is GOOD. There should be even more unique skills not just identical copies with different names...