Pack Leader Werewolf (Suggestions)

WhitePawPrints

While this last patch on Werewolves' Devour ability was necessary, I do agree the focus should be more on the more serious flaws of the Werewolf. Pack Leader's animation bug is incredibly disappointing; I have not even morphed my Transformation because I'm waiting for that fix. Even if the animation is fixed, the Pack Leader still would not feel like an Alpha among a pack of werewolves, and more the Omega albino outcast.

I'm looking to make the Pack Leader a greater asset to packs of werewolves, while the Beserker still remains an force to be reckoned with solo. When I transform into a white werewolf (when the bug is fixed), I'd like to feel as if I'm actually helping my pack. Pack Leader should have more passive abilities to increase the abilities of other werewolves. The current passive, I'm not sure what the benefit of the Ultimate increase is on other Werewolves because our Ultimate is the Werewolf Transformation. If we fill Werewolf Transformation up again while in Werewolf form, we can use it to... transform back? Our other abilities should compensate for the lack of the use of an Ultimate.

More specifically on my suggestions for Pack Leader, I think it should be more of a statement to see a player transform into a white werewolf. When you transform, it causes a fear AOE ability to activate but the radius is small, and the time is short. By the time I'm able to use my first ability, NPC's have already turned around to start attacking. I'd love to see the Werewolf Transformation cause real fear as if it means something more than just using the Roar ability. Especially the Pack Leader; maybe seeing a white werewolf that is obviously an Alpha would be more terrifying than seeing a lone werewolf transform to defend itself.

Now for the true benefits of having a Pack Leader among a pack of werewolves would be to give it an ability that will increase Longevity and Survivability, like life leech or health regeneration. This would make a single Pack Leader among a lot of Beserkers a potent force to deal with. Current passive limitations like the stack of five werewolves would be acceptable too, causing for more Pack Leaders to be needed rather than one among 200 werewolves being impossibly overpowered. Regardless, the white werewolf would also become a larger target; which is why they should get a bit more of a durability bonus of health, armor and spell resistance. Simply, other werewolves should have a passive that will increase these effects on an Alpha. (i.e. One werewolf next to the Pack Leader will grant 5% health increase. Two werewolves next to Pack Leader grant 5% health increase and 5% armor increase. And so on.)

Werewolves in general need a lot more survivability and longevity. I really don't care about the Ultimate cost because it's not that hard to fill up but when I use it, I'd like to stay in Werewolf form for much longer. In Skyrim, I'd rampage across the forts and devour dozens of Soldiers; so much that it stacked the point that it took two Skyrim days for me to turn back after I left Skyrim a graveyard. I'd like to see this type of timer return by removing the timer cap. I never tried but maybe Werewolves can carry Elder Scrolls and I can see that'd cause issue with PVP, but it would be completely impractical for a werewolf to accumulate enough time to take a scroll and run it all the way back with it. (Or simply remove the ability to carry a scroll while in Werewolf form.) Vampire and Fighter Guild abilities are already strong enough to fight against Werewolves anyway.

Worried about balance issues? Run away from the pack until their timers run out; hide in a keep or outpost, CC werewolves until their timer runs out. The timer almost auto balances everything against werewolves. Werewolves might win an open field battle but still would be useless against keep walls.

Werewolves are obviously supposed to be in packs with our current bonuses, so lets add a bit more lore to it, a bit more fun to it, and a bit more playability to it.

Hail_Sithis

What I would do is, A pack leader can use pounce for free (He is, leading the charge after all.), and reduces the cost of nearby wolf-pounces. In addition, the other nearby wolves will not go back to human form until the pack leader himself runs out of time.

As it stands now, no sane person wouldn't go berserker.

WhitePawPrints

Hail_Sithis wrote: »

What I would do is, A pack leader can use pounce for free, and reduces the cost of nearby wolf-pounces. In addition, the other nearby wolves will not go back to human form until the pack leader himself runs out of time.

Leaping werewolves. I can see it now XD

Maybe it's because I haven't been able to level my Pounce ability up that much but I don't see how strong more pounces could be. I still would hope that the Werewolf would get a full skill bar eventually anyway.

Pack Leader directly increasing longevity? That is interesting. Though I think having a Pack Leader stop the timers of other werewolves to be a bit strong, maybe it'd increase the effect of Devour, or just decrease the rate of the timer? Lots of possibilities there. Or, to look at it the other way around, to keep a Pack Leader on the field for longer, maybe a larger pack will increase the Pack Leader's timer like some of the other bonuses I listed. . . That would be interesting actually; allow for a single Pack Leader to give benefits to more werewolves as they transform in and out of the werewolf form. That would make needing 1 Leader for every six werewolves not as necessary. . . Interesting.

WhitePawPrints

Does anyone actually know what the benefits of the Pack Leader is? Allowing other Werewolves' Ultimate to increase faster has no meaning when already in Werewolf form.

Brittany_Joy

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Does anyone actually know what the benefits of the Pack Leader is? Allowing other Werewolves' Ultimate to increase faster has no meaning when already in Werewolf form.

It increases the ultimate gain of nearby allies. The pack leader morph is going to be fixed next patch.

WhitePawPrints

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Does anyone actually know what the benefits of the Pack Leader is? Allowing other Werewolves' Ultimate to increase faster has no meaning when already in Werewolf form.

It increases the ultimate gain of nearby allies. The pack leader morph is going to be fixed next patch.

"Allies nearby increase Ultimate gain." That is what the ability says, but is that allies nearby experience an increase in their Ultimate gain? Or that the Pack Leader experiences Ultimate gain by having nearby allies? Is it only active when in Pack Leader form? Does it only affect other werewolves?

It's rather vague. And if it's like the other abilities that only have affect while in Werewolf form then there is no point to having an increase in Ultimate gain. The bug with Pack Leader is a big problem, but I really hope that the Pack Leader will feel more helpful than just an increase in Ultimate gain.

WhitePawPrints

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Does anyone actually know what the benefits of the Pack Leader is? Allowing other Werewolves' Ultimate to increase faster has no meaning when already in Werewolf form.

It increases the ultimate gain of nearby allies. The pack leader morph is going to be fixed next patch.

Pack Leader was fixed and you could say it was buffed with lower cost, but Pack Leader is still an albino outcast rather than an Alpha Werewolf leading mighty packs. Those who choose it, like me, admit that we only choose it for the white werewolf appearance.

I admit, I have seen Pack Leaders used in PVP now about three times. Still with the vague description, and not noticing any change in my own Ultimate gain, I'm not sure what the use of the Pack Leader benefits are.

Brittany_Joy

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Does anyone actually know what the benefits of the Pack Leader is? Allowing other Werewolves' Ultimate to increase faster has no meaning when already in Werewolf form.

It increases the ultimate gain of nearby allies. The pack leader morph is going to be fixed next patch.

Pack Leader was fixed and you could say it was buffed with lower cost, but Pack Leader is still an albino outcast rather than an Alpha Werewolf leading mighty packs. Those who choose it, like me, admit that we only choose it for the white werewolf appearance.

I admit, I have seen Pack Leaders used in PVP now about three times. Still with the vague description, and not noticing any change in my own Ultimate gain, I'm not sure what the use of the Pack Leader benefits are.

Yeah, realistically albino animals are considered outcasts but it is kinda odd how that is because usually animals are color blind...oh well lets not question nature lol.

The way I see it; is the werewolves in Elder Scrolls tend to resemble Van Helsing or Underworld or it could just be a big coincidence. We all watch movies and enjoy them so there are has to be ideas influenced by them. The white werewolf leader is very cool. In Underworld lore there was a white werewolf that was revered by the lycans. William was basically the first werewolf and gave the gift of lycanthropy to humans so he is the original werewolf or the pack leader. Movies can influence design because the art team always needs some good references.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXEIWAKQOek

I use the pack leader morph too because it looks cool but it doesn't seem to make a difference. So I wonder about the specifics too like how much ultimate does it actually give to my allies and how come I can't receive the benefits. ZoS really needs to answer questions every time they make changes or to clarify their intention for the ability.

WhitePawPrints

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Does anyone actually know what the benefits of the Pack Leader is? Allowing other Werewolves' Ultimate to increase faster has no meaning when already in Werewolf form.

It increases the ultimate gain of nearby allies. The pack leader morph is going to be fixed next patch.

Pack Leader was fixed and you could say it was buffed with lower cost, but Pack Leader is still an albino outcast rather than an Alpha Werewolf leading mighty packs. Those who choose it, like me, admit that we only choose it for the white werewolf appearance.

I admit, I have seen Pack Leaders used in PVP now about three times. Still with the vague description, and not noticing any change in my own Ultimate gain, I'm not sure what the use of the Pack Leader benefits are.

Yeah, realistically albino animals are considered outcasts but it is kinda odd how that is because usually animals are color blind...oh well lets not question nature lol.

The way I see it; is the werewolves in Elder Scrolls tend to resemble Van Helsing or Underworld or it could just be a big coincidence. We all watch movies and enjoy them so there are has to be ideas influenced by them. The white werewolf leader is very cool. In Underworld lore there was a white werewolf that was revered by the lycans. William was basically the first werewolf and gave the gift of lycanthropy to humans so he is the original werewolf or the pack leader. Movies can influence design because the art team always needs some good references.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXEIWAKQOek

I use the pack leader morph too because it looks cool but it doesn't seem to make a difference. So I wonder about the specifics too like how much ultimate does it actually give to my allies and how come I can't receive the benefits. ZoS really needs to answer questions every time they make changes or to clarify their intention for the ability.

Naturally albino animals are shunned because they are diseased. It is a disease that makes them white, and their skin and eyes a pink and red tint. Other factors affect animals' senses that make them shun albinos but they can certainly see that they're not of the same color as the rest of the pack/herd/family. There are rare cases where white furred creatures just naturally happen, such as the white lions and they're not albino but those are incredibly rare.

Underworld... Always thought their werewolves looked a bit... dated and clunky... and tailless. But you have a point that the "father of werewolves" from that series was a white werewolf. Let's say that the Pack Leader morph should be more like that then, just with a tail, and not obviously a lifeless costume XP

All in all, I will still use Pack Leader morph on my Werewolf Transformation but I hope it'll become stronger and more to its name in the future.

Clutch

I do think giving survivability or survivability being given to a Pack Leader would be quite beneficial. Given the passive perks that the Fighters Guild members are given, all you really do is wait the were out if you're caught out of position. I would like a more robust timer depiction something a tad bit longer.

One issue I've found is sometimes Devour just doesn't work and I lose a large chunk of time feeding only to be given nothing in return.

There was also one issue I ran into the other day where leveling up my were skill made me deform.

WhitePawPrints

Clutch wrote: »

I do think giving survivability or survivability being given to a Pack Leader would be quite beneficial. Given the passive perks that the Fighters Guild members are given, all you really do is wait the were out if you're caught out of position. I would like a more robust timer depiction something a tad bit longer.

One issue I've found is sometimes Devour just doesn't work and I lose a large chunk of time feeding only to be given nothing in return.

There was also one issue I ran into the other day where leveling up my were skill made me deform.

The Devour issue, or "cooldown" is a very well known and hated part of the Werewolf since it makes no logical sense at all. However, I did discover something interesting about the Devour ability that might be a bug.

When I was hanging out at Hircine's Shrine, I kept running off to kill some random mobs. I'd devour them and sometimes if the bodies didn't disappear (usually due to there being loot left behind in those bodies), when I return, I could devour them again. I fed on the same Senche-Tiger about four times before the body disappeared. Might help those who are leveling up the Werewolf: do not loot the bodies you can devour. Go kill another mob, and return and the original mob might be capable for devouring again.

Losif00800

I think what matters the most is that one isn't obviously better then the other. Theres really no reason besides just wanting to be a white werewolf to be a pack leader. If you read the description of beserker it is obvious if an alpha and beserker got into a one on one fight the beserker would probably win. It shouldnt be this way. If your going to give beserkers a bleed and increasing attack speed at least give alphas more health or a summon or something. I think what skyrim had where you howled with the totem of brotherhood and you got 2 werewolf buddies to help you out was great and i think itd be a good idea here too. Scale them however you need to to balance it 75% of your damage o ten percent of your damage, whatever. The easier and quicker fix to this would be to make it so alphas increase allies ultimate gain AND gain increased health. Nothing crazy just more so then a beserker, just enough to compete with the bleed and increased attack speed. On a more creative and in depth note personally i think Beserkers and Alphas should have acess to entirely different skills if zenimax ever decides to take it that far, with beserkers being more bloodcrazy damage dealers and alphas being more practical for various situations and overall having more survivability. All Wolves should have pounce and roar but make the morphs different depending on your path, and as wolves only have 2 moves currently i think we NEED 3 more and the other three moves should just be compleatly different for the beserkers and alphas. I feel this would add a little immersiveness and pride to your choice, because currently i dont have that werewolf pride. Maybe it's that werewolves suck right now but i feel the vamp and werewolf trees are too easy as they are only 10 points deep. I was a level 10 werewolf in no time just by finding a humanoid rich dungeon and using my ult whenever i had it. While i was happy to climb the ladder so quickly once i actually looked and saw i was already level 8 i was kind of dissapointed. Being a vamp or a werewolf should be a way of life for the character something as immersive or at least half or even a third as the class skill lines. Sadly a fifth just doesn't seem adequate to me. I also don't care for how the color of your werewolf form is being dictated by which path you take in terms of your werewolf transformation. Id much rather prefer a color wheel or more simply a 20 color list you could choose from to modify your werewolf's fur color. I enjoy the idea of being a white, blonde, brown, or even red, purple, or green werewolf if im in the mood.

WhitePawPrints

Losif00800 wrote: »

I think what matters the most is that one isn't obviously better then the other. Theres really no reason besides just wanting to be a white werewolf to be a pack leader. If you read the description of beserker it is obvious if an alpha and beserker got into a one on one fight the beserker would probably win. It shouldnt be this way. If your going to give beserkers a bleed and increasing attack speed at least give alphas more health or a summon or something. I think what skyrim had where you howled with the totem of brotherhood and you got 2 werewolf buddies to help you out was great and i think itd be a good idea here too. Scale them however you need to to balance it 75% of your damage o ten percent of your damage, whatever. The easier and quicker fix to this would be to make it so alphas increase allies ultimate gain AND gain increased health. Nothing crazy just more so then a beserker, just enough to compete with the bleed and increased attack speed. On a more creative and in depth note personally i think Beserkers and Alphas should have acess to entirely different skills if zenimax ever decides to take it that far, with beserkers being more bloodcrazy damage dealers and alphas being more practical for various situations and overall having more survivability. All Wolves should have pounce and roar but make the morphs different depending on your path, and as wolves only have 2 moves currently i think we NEED 3 more and the other three moves should just be compleatly different for the beserkers and alphas. I feel this would add a little immersiveness and pride to your choice, because currently i dont have that werewolf pride. Maybe it's that werewolves suck right now but i feel the vamp and werewolf trees are too easy as they are only 10 points deep. I was a level 10 werewolf in no time just by finding a humanoid rich dungeon and using my ult whenever i had it. While i was happy to climb the ladder so quickly once i actually looked and saw i was already level 8 i was kind of dissapointed. Being a vamp or a werewolf should be a way of life for the character something as immersive or at least half or even a third as the class skill lines. Sadly a fifth just doesn't seem adequate to me. I also don't care for how the color of your werewolf form is being dictated by which path you take in terms of your werewolf transformation. Id much rather prefer a color wheel or more simply a 20 color list you could choose from to modify your werewolf's fur color. I enjoy the idea of being a white, blonde, brown, or even red, purple, or green werewolf if im in the mood.

Certainly more abilities is a desired addition to the Werewolf line. There are countless posts in these Werewolf threads suggesting as such.

Pounce - Rename as "Rush" or "Tackle". Given the same affect as Pounce, this ability will close distance by having the Werewolf (four-legged) sprint and tackle, or "pounce" the enemy causing them to be knocked down.
(Morph Choice) Maul - Werewolf swings repeatedly while opponent is knocked down, dealing X damage each hit for six hits. The sixth hit deals 2X damage.
(Morph Choice) Feast - (Cooldown 1 second) Werewolf bites downed opponent, dealing X damage and recovering Y% of X damage into health.

Roar - Rename "Howl". Ability causes casting time to be active, but causes greater fear-affect duration.
(Morph Choice) Rally - Howl adds Z second to Werewolf timers for every Y second Howl is active. Howl only affects Werewolves within X distance of active ability.
(Morph Choice) Roar - Increase duration of fear-affect, and distance of Howl.

Werewolf Vigor - Active Ability - Werewolf becomes immune to Crowd Control abilities for X seconds. (Animation is the Shield icon that NPC's Werewolves have.)
(Morph Choice) Ravenous - Affect remains active during channeling abilities such as Howl or cooldowns such as Feast.
(Morph Choice) Strength - Werewolf gains X boost to Armor and Spell Resistance.

Ravage - Active Ability - Werewolf bites opponent dealing X Damage.
(Morph Choice) Hunger - Ravage now grants life leech of Y health.
(Morph Choice) Fury - If opponent is below X% Health, Werewolf will continue to attack dealing Y damage until opponent is killed, or Crowd Control affect is broken.

Ancestral Rage - Active Ability - Summon the spirit of a fallen werewolf (or regular wolf) to fight beside you for X seconds.
(Morph Choice) Soul Renewal - Summoned Spirit can now take damage. Increase damage to X amount, and remove timer.
(Morph Choice) Summon Y spirits to fight for X seconds.

Hircine's Blessing - Passive - Reduce Cost of Werewolf Tranformation by X%.
(Second Tier) Reduce by Y%.
(Third Tier) Reduce by Z%

Pack Member - Passive - (Beserkers) When active Pack Leader is nearby, gain X% life leech on all attacks. (Pack Leader) When Beserker is nearby, gain Y% Armor and Spell Resistance.
(Second Tier) Increase X and Y percentages.

Monster's Hide - Passive - Increase base Health by X.
(Second Tier) Increase Health by Y.

Bloodlust - Passive - After each successful Devour, gain X% armor and spell resistance. Stacks up to Z times.
(Second Tier) Increase Y% after each successful Devour.

Shadow - Werewolves can now sneak. Sneak radius on werewolf is increased (they're easier to detect).
(Second Tier) Werewolves don't suffer speed penalty while sneaking.

The Hunt - Passive - While werewolves are (four-legged) sprinting, they can activate Pounce to take down their prey.
(Second Tier) - Werewolves sprint speed is increased by X%.

Elongated Claws - Passive - Werewolves deal X% damage to all enemies nearby.
(Second Tier) Increase X%.

Some of these are in line with my suggestions in this discussion, and would certainly help but Pack Leader would still remain significantly weaker than the Beserker.

Neutronium_Dragon

I don't think the Pack Leader is MEANT to be equal to the Berserker in a one-on-one context. The concept of the Pack Leader seems to be that a group of werewolves that includes one will win out over a group that doesn't, so 5 Berserkers + 1 Pack Leader > 6 Berserkers.

This is okay as a concept but it relies on the werewolf implementation being reasonably functional and right now it isn't.

WhitePawPrints

Neutronium_Dragon wrote: »

I don't think the Pack Leader is MEANT to be equal to the Berserker in a one-on-one context. The concept of the Pack Leader seems to be that a group of werewolves that includes one will win out over a group that doesn't, so 5 Berserkers + 1 Pack Leader > 6 Berserkers.

This is okay as a concept but it relies on the werewolf implementation being reasonably functional and right now it isn't.

The majority of my suggestions are making the Pack Leader of that: support. Right now, it has a possibly completely useless morph benefit.

Yes, this suggestion would rely on some significant timer fixes that can be found in my other suggestion thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/98644/werewolf-timer-fixes-suggestions-no-toggle

Losif00800

Neutronium_Dragon wrote: »

I don't think the Pack Leader is MEANT to be equal to the Berserker in a one-on-one context. The concept of the Pack Leader seems to be that a group of werewolves that includes one will win out over a group that doesn't, so 5 Berserkers + 1 Pack Leader > 6 Berserkers.

This is okay as a concept but it relies on the werewolf implementation being reasonably functional and right now it isn't.

At the very least i feel a pack leader should have increased health compared to beserkers, considering youll likely be a big white-furred target.