Life as melee in dungeons

Romboldt · May 2014

Pretty sad life. The normal nuisances of the role are fine, but when you have game devs who go out of their way to design bosses that -specifically- screw over melee, things get a lil personal.

wtf zenimax. -.-;

Note: Prime example is the frozen troll (or whatever) boss in the frozen keep dungeon. The one with the melee-range extreme damage aoe. C'mon now that's just rude. >_>

Travail · May 2014

The regular group I run with has basically decided that there's no reason for anyone other than the tank to use melee in this game. I hate to say it, but they have no advantages which can even begin to make up for the downsides (if you want a stamina dump, use a bow or Fighter's Guild skills.)

The mechanics really are working against them. Not just boss mechanics, but the mechanics of combat in general. The fact that any melee weapon build must use stamina for both damage output as well as damage mitigation is a double-whammy for these builds. Destro/Resto Staff builds keep all of their stamina free, and bow builds potentially fight from the longest range in the game, which means they can stay out of harms way far more easily than melee weapon builds. Melee weapon builds are at a distinct disadvantage, here.

As for boss mechanics, I can't think of a single fight which actually punishes ranged fighters, but nearly every fight in the game has at least one mechanic which punishes melee fighters. Just look at veteran Fungal Grotto.

- Mephala's Fang has a poison AoE that discourages players from standing too close to one another so you don't run the risk of hitting each other with the poison. A melee fighter affected with that poison has to stay on the move, and often can't get close enough to the boss to deal damage (unless you want to hit your tank with the poison), or the boss is currently standing in poison preventing anyone from getting close, etc. It's far easier for everyone to stand at range, and keep distance between each other.
- Gamyne Bandu places a beam between two party members that is easily negated by standing apart from one another in a large box formation, and is a projectile that can actually be dodged entirely (which is obviously easier to do if you aren't standing within 5 feet of her.)
- The Spawn of Mephala has a huge pbAoE which is hard to dodge out of if you are standing in melee range, placing an additional strain on your healer. Not to mention you want to stay mobile to keep the lasers away from you, and you want to stay separated to keep the lasers from hitting multiple party members at once. This boss also seems to lose the ability to be taunted (sometimes) when one player is sucked into the spider lair, which means she's often chasing your healer, or a dps which is kiting her. Much easier to deal damage from range, rather than chasing her around the room during these stages of the fight.
- Reggr Dark-Dawn only has 3 moves, two of which punish melee fighters more than ranged. The first is a melee charge-up attack which you want to dodge, not block (it will often still deal over 1000 damage if blocked.) The second is a pbAoE around himself, which obviously hurts melee more than ranged characters. His third attack drains both health and magicka, which admittedly could give some advantage to a full stamina build (which is more likely to be a melee weapon build, as there's only 1 stamina-based ranged weapon.) However, since this attack also drains the magicka of your healer, you are often forced to kite this boss after this drain attack, and kiting with a melee weapon is obviously inefficient. In any case, this is still 2 moves to 1 that hurt melee over ranged builds.
- The final boss of Fungal stands in her own black circles, literally preventing you from dealing her any melee damage for much of the fight. The tank won't even want a melee taunt (use Inner Fire instead) nevermind bringing along melee dps.

Definitely more punishing to melee overall. It should be noted that there is one more boss fight (the spider shepherd), which doesn't actually punish melee in any way that I've noticed. But, since the boss also doesn't punish ranged casters, it's not a notch in either column. Only 1 boss out of 6 where melee is equally viable.

This is one advantage of TERA's "arcade" action combat system. I know many players hate the thought of their character being rooted while attacking, but that's what allows TERA to balance ranged versus melee. Sorcerers and Archers must pause to attack, which means they run a higher risk of being caught in effects than ranged characters in a game like ESO, where we can run-n-gun without any movement penalty. Ranged characters in TERA must utilize activated abilities like jumps/dodges/teleports in order to effectively stay out of harm's way, which places them on a more even playing field with melee characters which must do the same (add to that the fact that melee fighters are often given superior mobility tools, and you further level the playing field.) Additionally, in PvP, this system allows a melee character to counter a ranged character's escape tool with their own mobility enhancer. This system of moves and counter-moves can't exist in ESO's combat system, and the game is worse for it, IMO.

-Travail.

Malediktus · May 2014

They need to rework a lot of skills in this game, otherwise very few people will use melee once everyone figured out the pros and cons of everything.

Wifeaggro13 · May 2014

Travail wrote: »

The regular group I run with has basically decided that tyhere's no reason for anyone other than the tank to use melee in this game. I hate to say it, but they have no advantages which can even begin to make up for the downsides (if you want a stamina dump, use a bow or Fighter's Guild skills.)

The mechanics really are working against them. Not just boss mechanics, but the mechanics of combat in general. The fact that any melee weapon build must use stamina for both damage output as well as damage mitigation is a double-whammy for these builds. Destro/Resto Staff builds keep all of their stamina free, and bow builds potentially fight from the longest range in the game, which means they can stay out of harms way far more easily than melee weapon builds. Melee weapon builds are at a distinct disadvantage, here.

As for boss mechanics, I can't think of a single fight which actually punishes ranged fighters, but nearly every fight in the game has at least one mechanic which punishes melee fighters. Just look at veteran Fungal Grotto.

- Mephala's Fang has a poison AoE that discourages players from standing too close to one another so you don't run the risk of hitting each other with the poison. A melee fighter affected with that poison has to stay on the move, and often can't get close enough to the boss to deal damage (unless you want to hit your tank with the poison), or the boss is currently standing in poison preventing anyone from getting close, etc. It's far easier for everyone to stand at range, and keep distance between each other.
- Gamyne Bandu places a beam between two party members that is easily negated by standing apart from one another in a large box formation, and is a projectile that can actually be dodged entirely (which is obviously easier to do if you aren't standing within 5 feet of her.)
- The Spawn of Mephala has a huge pbAoE which is hard to dodge out of if you are standing in melee range, placing an additional strain on your healer. Not to mention you want to stay mobile to keep the lasers away from you, and you want to stay separated to keep the lasers from hitting multiple party members at once. This boss also seems to lose the ability to be taunted (sometimes) when one player is sucked into the spider lair, which means she's often chasing your healer, or a dps which is kiting her. Much easier to deal damage from range, rather than chasing her around the room during these stages of the fight.
- Reggr Dark-Dawn only has 3 moves, two of which punish melee fighters more than ranged. The first is a melee charge-up attack which you want to dodge, not block (it will often still deal over 1000 damage if blocked.) The second is a pbAoE around himself, which obviously hurts melee more than ranged characters. His third attack drains both health and magicka, which admittedly could give some advantage to a full stamina build (which is more likely to be a melee weapon build, as there's only 1 stamina-based ranged weapon.) However, since this attack also drains the magicka of your healer, you are often forced to kite this boss after this drain attack, and kiting with a melee weapon is obviously inefficient. In any case, this is still 2 moves to 1 that hurt melee over ranged builds.
- The final boss of Fungal stands in her own black circles, literally preventing you from dealing her any melee damage for much of the fight. The tank won't even want a melee taunt (use Inner Fire instead) nevermind bringing along melee dps.

Definitely more punishing to melee overall. It should be noted that there is one more boss fight (the spider shepherd), which doesn't actually punish melee in any way that I've noticed. But, since the boss also doesn't punish ranged casters, it's not a notch in either column. Only 1 boss out of 6 where melee is equally viable.

This is one advantage of TERA's "arcade" action combat system. I know many players hate the thought of their character being rooted while attacking, but that's what allows TERA to balance ranged versus melee. Sorcerers and Archers must pause to attack, which means they run a higher risk of being caught in effects than ranged characters in a game like ESO, where we can run-n-gun without any movement penalty. Ranged characters in TERA must utilize activated abilities like jumps/dodges/teleports in order to effectively stay out of harm's way, which places them on a more even playing field with melee characters which must do the same (add to that the fact that melee fighters are often given superior mobility tools, and you further level the playing field.) Additionally, in PvP, this system allows a melee character to counter a ranged character's escape tool with their own mobility enhancer. This system of moves and counter-moves can't exist in ESO's combat system, and the game is worse for it, IMO.

-Travail.

they are making the same mistakes trion did early on. Its not just you saying it . Its anyone who gets into vr dungeons. On top of that , pts shows they increased destro staff damage lol. Thinking zos has not played their own endgame

Theron75 · May 2014

This one is a Catch-22 for me.

Yes, it's rough for melee. As a longtime MMO tank, getting used to ESO is a pretty big learning curve. On the other hand...

I kind of like it. In any other MMO, the boss mechanics are so boring and simple, the tank can just:

Eat the damage
Rely on the healer to heal through it

In ESO, the whole group is forced to be engaged in boss fights. There's no such thing as DPS falling asleep at the wheel while letting a rotation macro run. You have to get out of the way and bank enough stamina to be able to roll dodge.

flyingblood · May 2014

Yes i agree with this post im currently are a vr 10 tank but i feel 6 out of 10 fight where melee dps are quite redundant theres so much aoe on the ground there is no way to put any dps in to the boss but there is some cases where melee is useful eg high heavy burst from nightblade for adds on bosses that need to taken care of but appart from that i feel melee is only worth as the off hand weapon as a quick switch from some scenarios.

Crowtac · May 2014

Problem is ESO is practically like ever other mmo' out there where Ranged classes have a much easier time of it than melee. Developers have yet to come up with creative ways of punishing ranged combatants in combat, why add ingenious ways of controlling ranged in boss fights when you can just add an pbAoe to sc*ew over the melee.

Axer · May 2014

Crowtac wrote: »

Problem is ESO is practically like ever other mmo' out there where Ranged classes have a much easier time of it than melee. Developers have yet to come up with creative ways of punishing ranged combatants in combat, why add ingenious ways of controlling ranged in boss fights when you can just add an pbAoe to sc*ew over the melee.

Actually the ESO devs DID figure this out, in 1 boss fight in the game:

Final boss of the cold harbour group dungeon:

Has a special ability that kills everyone outside of melee range.

Sadly though, the boss is incredibly easy, and has so low hp that it often dies before it even gets it off.

The one time she did get it off tho, and kill the ranged players. it was pretty funny.

They just need to do more of that heh.

Nickdorlandb16_ESO · May 2014

Altough the poster is a bit right, 2H in a dungeon with reverse slash IS GREATLY pleasant, 2H can do A LOT of dmg in a short period, and everytime i play with a 2H in my PT i see that the dmg is just more then with mages only..

They got insane burst, and i love to have one in my party for boss fights

Just know how to build your 2H, and dont focus on stamina only

Xanxarib16_ESO · May 2014

Theron75 wrote: »

This one is a Catch-22 for me.

Yes, it's rough for melee. As a longtime MMO tank, getting used to ESO is a pretty big learning curve. On the other hand...

I kind of like it. In any other MMO, the boss mechanics are so boring and simple, the tank can just:
Eat the damage

Rely on the healer to heal through it

In ESO, the whole group is forced to be engaged in boss fights. There's no such thing as DPS falling asleep at the wheel while letting a rotation macro run. You have to get out of the way and bank enough stamina to be able to roll dodge.

as a long time MMO player the learning curve as a tank is small to none. and its really boring to play a tank, it takes no skills to tank in this game, i do feal sorry for you that you find this lasy tanking more fun then other mmo's.

as Travail said Tera online have a really great combat system, and ESO are just miles away for that system

Wifeaggro13 · May 2014

Xanxarib16_ESO wrote: »

Theron75 wrote: »

This one is a Catch-22 for me.

Yes, it's rough for melee. As a longtime MMO tank, getting used to ESO is a pretty big learning curve. On the other hand...

I kind of like it. In any other MMO, the boss mechanics are so boring and simple, the tank can just:
Eat the damage

Rely on the healer to heal through it

In ESO, the whole group is forced to be engaged in boss fights. There's no such thing as DPS falling asleep at the wheel while letting a rotation macro run. You have to get out of the way and bank enough stamina to be able to roll dodge.

as a long time MMO player the learning curve as a tank is small to none. and its really boring to play a tank, it takes no skills to tank in this game, i do feal sorry for you that you find this lasy tanking more fun then other mmo's.

as Travail said Tera online have a really great combat system, and ESO are just miles away for that system

it does need a reworking. It clearly did not have enough testing. The main issue is they tried to redefine the tank role with realy bad tools to accomplish the dynamic they were going for.
unfortunately it blurred the role and it became more effecient to have a dps fill the role.tanking is boring , because its not needed.skilled heals are required skilled dps is required but skilled tanking is not. There is no knowledge or skill required in pulling. All bosses punish melee . And cc on trash is so unreliable trash pulls are just chaos with alot of aoe. Spam volcanic rune on a choke point with los is pretty much the strat for all trash.and bosses all but a few dont even need a tank.With that said this game is awesome leveling experience. There is so much content im blown away.but unfortunately any Mmo's longevity relies on endgame to keep its player base. And on all lvls Eso is a complete mess. From itemization, scaling,imbalances, broken Vr quests that are required to move from Vr 6 to Vr10 ,to lack of vr 10 activities. I dont think they will beat the curve.when the population pack hits the muddy part of the game in its current condition it will be exodus.
It is an insanely fun game with the most potential ive seen from any launch Mmo.

Wifeaggro13 · May 2014

Nickdorlandb16_ESO wrote: »

Altough the poster is a bit right, 2H in a dungeon with reverse slash IS GREATLY pleasant, 2H can do A LOT of dmg in a short period, and everytime i play with a 2H in my PT i see that the dmg is just more then with mages only..

They got insane burst, and i love to have one in my party for boss fights
Just know how to build your 2H, and dont focus on stamina only

You can reverse slash all day long with momentum. It still wont beat sns sheild spam on a sustained fight. Melee skills in general are shortsighted . Dual wiekd still beats 2h burst all day. You may get a big hit but the consumption and slow speed makes it pointless. I also think its why Zos limited the api so wr cant see how horribly im balanced things are in the end game

Maverick827 · May 2014

It's very sad that after all these years every MMO development team makes the same mistakes regarding group encounters and melee.

Romboldt · May 2014

Nickdorlandb16_ESO wrote: »

Altough the poster is a bit right, 2H in a dungeon with reverse slash IS GREATLY pleasant, 2H can do A LOT of dmg in a short period, and everytime i play with a 2H in my PT i see that the dmg is just more then with mages only..

They got insane burst, and i love to have one in my party for boss fights
Just know how to build your 2H, and dont focus on stamina only

You've missed the point of my rant by a mile. I'm not trying to compare class/build dps. I'm irritated that every second boss fight I encounter completely screws over melee. pbAoEs that instagib players aren't fun. They aren't exciting. They're aggravating and they ruin dungeons for melee players. I've literally had boss fights where all I could do was sit around and watch the rest of the party dps for 90% of the fight. Not fun.

Crescent · May 2014

The activation times of some of these aoe circles means if on my sorcerer I don't use bolt escape to get out I'm gonna get hit no matter what. Dodge roll is useless.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · May 2014

fun fact - on blood spawn, the best fellow dps I've had was a VR 1 2h user in full heavy armor, he was pushing the weapon damage soft cap and could EASILY survive the pbaoe almost aswell as the tank, just a bit of careful positioning to cop heals without taking the conal auto attacks and he was sweet. I can almost guarantee you that he'd have been outdpsing any mage in every boss fight regardless of pbaoe, the only exception I can think of would be that irritating fight with the pink bubble of doom in VR spindle. It's simple really, build survivability - still do more dps than ranged. (also he was smart enough to use class skills)

mwsacto_ESO · May 2014

If you want to run a melee build do everyone a favor and level up a legitimate ranged dps weapon also. So many times Ive ran into melee dps that bring down the group because they cant range certain boss mobs.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · May 2014

mwsacto_ESO wrote: »

If you want to run a melee build do everyone a favor and level up a legitimate ranged dps weapon also. So many times Ive ran into melee dps that bring down the group because they cant range certain boss mobs.

every boss can be melee'd no exceptions people just need to acknowledge that in exchange for their greater damage innately they can then afford to build survivability.

Crescent · May 2014

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

mwsacto_ESO wrote: »

If you want to run a melee build do everyone a favor and level up a legitimate ranged dps weapon also. So many times Ive ran into melee dps that bring down the group because they cant range certain boss mobs.

every boss can be melee'd no exceptions people just need to acknowledge that in exchange for their greater damage innately they can then afford to build survivability.

LOL greater innate damage. No melee build beats ranged sorcerer single target output or DK AoE.

Melee is a self-handicap you use because you enjoy the style not because it's optimal with the encounter designs in this game.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · May 2014

Crescent wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

mwsacto_ESO wrote: »

If you want to run a melee build do everyone a favor and level up a legitimate ranged dps weapon also. So many times Ive ran into melee dps that bring down the group because they cant range certain boss mobs.

every boss can be melee'd no exceptions people just need to acknowledge that in exchange for their greater damage innately they can then afford to build survivability.

LOL greater innate damage. No melee build beats ranged sorcerer single target output or DK AoE.

Melee is a self-handicap you use because you enjoy the style not because it's optimal with the encounter designs in this game.

Strongest execute in the game, and a 445 per 1 second cast standard ability which with the right morph on your execute does more damage to low health targets. now correct me if i'm wrong but 445 dps from one single ability is impressive (i'm VR3) - combine this with class abilities (especially dots) and hey presto you're doing insane dps. Duel wield gets an even cheaper 400+ dps ability than 2h and an aoe execute + a really cheap 400+ damage per cast dot. This is FAR FAR FAR more than any bow abilities - taking that into account - one can easily stack survivability to compensate for being close - thus being able to survive pbaoes

Audigy · May 2014

You will never get an MMO where melee is immune to CC, that just would be very wrong. Its the job of your Healer to dispel CC on you, its also your job to run out of bad stuff and it is your job to have some type of damage mitigation as a melee.

Yes its harder than the life of a basic ranged DPS, but you can still have fun. People play melee DPS or Tank since more than 20 years, its part of the business to be aware of whats happening around you. You choose that role so deal with its disadvantages just like you do with its benefits.

As soon people understand that DPS comes second and survival first, TESO will improve a lot for melee in dungeons. Just kick those that complain about your DPS as melee, they need to learn.

Romboldt · May 2014

Audigy wrote: »

You will never get an MMO where melee is immune to CC, that just would be very wrong. Its the job of your Healer to dispel CC on you, its also your job to run out of bad stuff and it is your job to have some type of damage mitigation as a melee.

Yes its harder than the life of a basic ranged DPS, but you can still have fun. People play melee DPS or Tank since more than 20 years, its part of the business to be aware of whats happening around you. You choose that role so deal with its disadvantages just like you do with its benefits.

As soon people understand that DPS comes second and survival first, TESO will improve a lot for melee in dungeons. Just kick those that complain about your DPS as melee, they need to learn.

Many of these points are easier said than done. There are fights where I've been literally forbidden to get into melee range. To do so is suicide. Simply 'stepping out of pbaoe' isn't as easy as it sounds when there's a tiny margin for error (and even when you do get out in time you still take damage, which makes me furious). If it was reasonable damage it wouldn't be so bad, but when you die almost instantly because you blinked it gets a little ridiculous. My build is very much tanky dps and these abilities still practically instagib me.

Way I see it there need to be fewer pbAoEs (or at least tone down the insta-death mentality of them), and there need to be more boss mechanics that punish (read: challenge) ranged characters. Exterior wall arrow/flame traps, boss mechanics that pull in ranged characters, or a boss who's famed as an archer who utterly ruins anybody who dares step out of melee range. It's not hard to come up with ideas.

Hiddenbunny · May 2014

all they have to do is design boss to have melee phase and range phase... I am already playing my NB pretty much dividing my time between melee and range depend on whether I can go in or not. All they have to do now is to make the boss melee phase more prone to melee dmg, then the problem is solved.

SirTinbox · May 2014

Yep they really need to do something. As it is now, they just give melees a way harder time avoiding all the crap for no benefit.

Romboldt · May 2014

Ugh these pbAOEs need to chill out. AoEs that are nearly unavoidable should NOT do enough damage to murder a player before they even realize they're in peril.

And before some snot-nosed elitist pipes in, yes I have gear and build. Even as a tank will tank buffs and full armor and sword and board if I blink at the wrong time I get blown up by these stupid pbAOEs. Melee be damned. No wonder it's so hard to find tanks, let alone decent ones.

schroed360 · May 2014

I just want to say that I agree with tais thread. I 'm a tank and now when I figure a boss with an almost unavoidable ultra damaging aoe I just do pierce armor +dot then switch to destro (resto) staff. And I think it is not a really bad mechanic.I would just like more diversity because until now( only lvl 37 and done thé 12 first group dungeon) this is essentially what is killing me. That and the Oh I miss 1 block so I'm dead (but I 'm fine with it since that make the fight intense). But I m sure this will évolue.

rhubbert_ESO · May 2014

Here is an idea: Level a ranged and a melee weapon!