The Roll dodge is really poor. Please improve it.

adesanawa

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

KORJ wrote: »

THIS DOGE

Watch and Learn Zeni, what is dodge, and how it should work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBzFaxbD31g&feature=youtu.be

What's your point?

I think the problem with dodging is the invincibility window is too small to be reliable. I agree with you on projectiles, but I think the dodges are meant to dodge boss AOEs.

Right now dodge functions as "get away from the red zone" button and not a timely invincibility button. As I said in my previous It could help melee DPS keep up with ranged, since they don't have to run around in circles anymore, while ranged can keep their DPS with minimal movement.

Passives or armor set bonus that can increase invincibility window might be able to help the current situation (Similar to Monster Hunter's Evade+1 & +2 armor skill if anyone knows). Preferably on medium armors since it just fit the bill with the dodge cost reduction passives and all.

FYI, the Nightblade skill Shadow Cloak already does exactly this, you're immune to damage and AOE as long as you time it properly.
Enemy casting an AOE? pop a Shadow Cloak
Enemy about to throw a dagger at you? Shadow Cloak
Enemy about to power attack you? again Shadow Cloak.

Now if they could just apply similar thing to the current dodge... say... making you immune to damage for the duration of the animation.

KORJ

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

What's your point?

Axer wrote: »

You actually are not dodging anything like what you showed in the video. You can't. The attacks are too fast, and the dodge is too slow/no invuln frames. You are pre-empting them. It's not the same thing.

Due to unfixable/unmitigatable nature of online games, some degree of give needs to be allowed. The give should be invulnerbility frame,s to take into account the fact by the time that shuriken/arrow/etc shows up on your screne, it's actually already hit you on the server.

And I found the specific enemy you did this on and tested extensively. You simply can't "DODGE" that shuriken. Not doable with my latency anyways. Not by any real human. Also counter intuivively - that forward dodge roll you performed is the most effect one. Realisticly you'd expect going to the side would work well? But no, the homing reacts better to the side to side movement, then the verticle, so you still almost always get hit.

You can certainly pre-empt it. Sure. Learn the paterns, react before it happens.
But if you actaully dodge perfectly as a REACTION (to the attack itself, not the patern). You still get hit.

Thats poor.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

I don't like the idea of dodge making you immune to damage. Having played GW2 a lot, invincibility frames just makes some encounters way too easy sometimes.

I actualy think, dodge is very well implemented in this game, you can dodge (even roll around your target) swings and rocks but when you get caught by an explosion you don't magicaly phase out of the fire.

We could always imagine a temporary damage reduction from AoE while dodging, a bit like in DD, sinds jumping around can reduce your kinetic resistance from a blast. But an immunity just doesn't sounds like a great plan.

And for Shadow Cloak, you technicaly aren't invincible sinds DoTs breaks the stealth. But it does seem every AI in this game needs at least one target to use their skill on. When you become invisible, it actualy breaks the focus of an NPC and sinds it looses sight from its main target it somehow "interupts" their current action.

KORJ

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't like the idea of dodge making you immune to damage. Having played GW2 a lot, invincibility frames just makes some encounters way too easy sometimes.

This is the same as saying that the block is too easy to use.

In this game, dodge Cost a resource used for active abilities, as well as a block, but the block is not spending stamina when activated, only on successful fending off an attack.

If reflecting heavy attack success, the target takes unbalanced status.

Block cost can be reduced.

And I like the idea of dodge making you immune to damage.

Because only then will dodge would make sense.

DARK CLOAK IV
Gives player invisibility for 2.5 seconds and removes 4 damage over time effect.

SHADOW BARRIER (passive ability)
Increases Armor and Spell Resistance when coming out of stealth or invisibility.

adesanawa

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't like the idea of dodge making you immune to damage. Having played GW2 a lot, invincibility frames just makes some encounters way too easy sometimes.

Well with Talons, Bolt escape, stunlocks and other crazy skills being used all the time, difficulty is never much of a problem outside instanced situations IMO.

And it's not like dodging is easy. Take TERA online for example. I don't know what's it like in GW2, but in that game dodge too fast or too slow and you'll be dead in one hit from the super attacks. (similar to the cue'd attack here).
So it's either you risk it by dodging at the right time and be rewarded if u succeed or get the hell out of the attack range with no risk, but you have to run back to the enemy. So basically you need to know when to dodge, it's not an insta invincibility button, similar how you do timed block here.

Actually now I'm starting to see where the problem lies. Despite being a dynamic fight, ESO still retain some of the old targeted attacks. The easiest example would be bows and magical projectiles, those things home on you!
Even melee attacks does this to an extent. I've tried to dodge power attacks by rolling away from the mobs, but somehow they always hit me despite the distance I covered. It's always better to block melee attacks it seems.

So this is why I think invincible dodge is more suitable for this game.

If ESO has a real dynamic attacks like TERA does (where enemy attacks don't home in on you), then I don't mind the current dodge, since getting from front to back of the enemies actually does something. It would feel like Monster Hunter, which is a great example for this.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

adesanawa wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't like the idea of dodge making you immune to damage. Having played GW2 a lot, invincibility frames just makes some encounters way too easy sometimes.

Well with Talons, Bolt escape, stunlocks and other crazy skills being used all the time, difficulty is never much of a problem outside instanced situations IMO. .

And that's why you shouldn't give a tool, wich basicaly everyone can use, that renders every other available defensive skills subpar. Because if you do that, you get in the same situation as GW2 where almost every defensive utility are not needed because dodge already gives enough mitigation to avoid ennemies attack spikes.

adesanawa wrote: »

And it's not like dodging is easy. Take TERA online for example. I don't know what's it like in GW2, but in that game dodge too fast or too slow and you'll be dead in one hit from the super attacks. (similar to the cue'd attack here).
So it's either you risk it by dodging at the right time and be rewarded if u succeed or get the hell out of the attack range with no risk, but you have to run back to the enemy. So basically you need to know when to dodge, it's not an insta invincibility button, similar how you do timed block here. .

Attacks in this game don't work the way it works like in TERA or GW2. In both of those game there is an actual collision on every attack. If someone goes in front of a projectile he can intercept it because the physics allow them to do it.

In TESO its quite the opposite, you have a hit check and everything done to you is instant, it doesn't look like that because the game actualy delays the proportion of the damage done to your healthpool UI until the animation hits your character. But if you are supposed to take a killing blow and this one is delayed, like I told you before, you will notice you won't be able to use any heals inbetween to save yourself while the projectile travels to deliver its killing blow, because true damage is applied before it is showed on your UI.

adesanawa wrote: »

Actually now I'm starting to see where the problem lies. Despite being a dynamic fight, ESO still retain some of the old targeted attacks. The easiest example would be bows and magical projectiles, those things home on you!
Even melee attacks does this to an extent. I've tried to dodge power attacks by rolling away from the mobs, but somehow they always hit me despite the distance I covered. It's always better to block melee attacks it seems.

So this is why I think invincible dodge is more suitable for this game.

They only hit you because you dodge after the hitcheck wich is done when the attack animation starts (not after). If you dodge during the cast time or right before an instant attack animation starts you will actualy be able dodge the blow.

Also if you put some form of invulnerability buff, the only major difference will be the fact you'll be able to soak damage from every possible attack wich are, right now, limited to the Melee and Projectiles category but that wouldn't change the fact you'll still be forced to use it preventively to avoid beeing damaged.

adesanawa wrote: »

If ESO has a real dynamic attacks like TERA does (where enemy attacks don't home in on you), then I don't mind the current dodge, since getting from front to back of the enemies actually does something. It would feel like Monster Hunter, which is a great example for this.

It doesn't, so you actualy need a buff like dodge, wich cause your ennemies to have a 100% chance to miss their melee and projectile hit checks. Otherwise you'll just get other issues with DoT abilities not doing damage while dodging and crowd controls affecting you trough dodge unless you complicate the stuff and add yet another effect on top of the damage soaking component of your invulnerability.

That's why I firmly believe dodge is fine the way it is right now.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

KORJ wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't like the idea of dodge making you immune to damage. Having played GW2 a lot, invincibility frames just makes some encounters way too easy sometimes.

This is the same as saying that the block is too easy to use.

In this game, dodge Cost a resource used for active abilities, as well as a block, but the block is not spending stamina when activated, only on successful fending off an attack.

If reflecting heavy attack success, the target takes unbalanced status.

Block cost can be reduced.

And I like the idea of dodge making you immune to damage.

Because only then will dodge would make sense.

DARK CLOAK IV
Gives player invisibility for 2.5 seconds and removes 4 damage over time effect.

SHADOW BARRIER (passive ability)
Increases Armor and Spell Resistance when coming out of stealth or invisibility.

First dude, if you want to stay credible, don't use argumentation from a guy that contradicts my whole point when I clearly demonstrated with my video it was possible to do what he said was impossible to do.

Secondly their is a big difference between blocking and dodging, one prevents a portion of the damage done to you while the other completely prevents damage done to you but has its effect limited to melee attacks and projectiles only.

Finally stop bringing Shadow Cloak in this discussion and develop your post a bit more. Liking an idea and say it would makes sense to you doesn't explain how it makes sense to anyone else reading your post.

KORJ

Brasseurfb16_ESO

I am just a simple Russian guy who has spent over 10 years in the MMO.

Have two veteran character in the TESO

Went through almost all veterans of the dungeon.

And the only time I used the dodge, was in PvP.
To get the speed bonus from the last passive abilities of bow.

Because even to get out of the red zone, more efficient use sprint.

In GV2 on WvW, together with six players, we attacked twice larger groups of enemies.
And won.
Because Dodge was effective.
And advantage would not on the side of those who has more people.
But who knew how to play.

99% of people in this thread have written about what dodge useless.
I'm sorry but you're a minority.

And about the video, if you want to prove something, then show where dodge real benefits to use, In a serious fight.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Brasseurfb16_ESO

KORJ wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO
I am just a simple Russian guy who has spent over 10 years in the MMO.

I don't care, and it has nothing to do with the topic.

KORJ wrote: »

Have two veteran character in the TESO

Still out of topic.

KORJ wrote: »

Went through almost all veterans of the dungeon.

And the only time I used the dodge, was in PvP.
To get the speed bonus from the last passive abilities of bow.

Because you are only able to use it in one situation doesn't means it isn't usefull in other situations too. I happen to use dodge in many situations, but mostly to avoid big spikes of damage directed at me.

KORJ wrote: »

Because even to get out of the red zone, more efficient use sprint.

That's true, but again, you don't seem to realise dodge was never meant against AoEs sinds it only protects you against melee attacks and projectiles.

KORJ wrote: »

In GV2 on WvW, together with six players, we attacked twice larger groups of enemies.
And won.
Because Dodge was effective.
And advantage would not on the side of those who has more people.
But who knew how to play.

Yup, and i've seen small groups of DKs and vampires beat zergs of 30 people because they were using broken powers.

Is that skillfull play? Not realy because you don't have to do anything incredibly difficult to get to those results. But the players wich died were playing very poorly, this is sure.

KORJ wrote: »

99% of people in this thread have written about what dodge useless.
I'm sorry but you're a minority.

I might be a minority, but that doesn't make any of the information I posted wrong unless you happen to have any proof to back up that statement?

KORJ wrote: »

And about the video, if you want to prove something, then show where dodge real benefits to use, In a serious fight.

That was never the point of the video, the point was to back up a statement that it was possible to dodge homing projectiles. If you want so much to know how dodge can be usefull, why don't you experiment yourself a bit against encounters with specific mechanic wich can be dodged? I'm sure you'll make yourself a big favour.

English happens to not be my primary language too, but I still had the decency to stay polite and listen to what everyone had to say, even if I disagreed with most of the things writen in this thread.

You on the other hand, you should stop beeing rude with everyone. That would be a great start.

Moderator Edit: Removed quote from moderated post.

Crescent

Dodge works.


The problem is that unlike block it has no priority so you can be finishing an animation and dodge won't interrupt it when you actually need to dodge.

Dodge needs to have priority over ALL actions.

Axer

Looks like they might of took this post to heart:
Dodge roll was improved a fair bit this patch.

- Now has 100% priority over all other skills (that I've tried - with the exception of the templar healing ultimate, though that may be WAI)
- Initial animation speed and activation speed increased GREATLY, around 50% - near instant now. Overall animation feels a tad faster too, perhaps up 10%

With these upgrades it now has SOME use. It's now possible to dodge many boss aoes at the last moment, and it's faster then sprinting.

However I still feel it's underpowered. Having it be stronger would allow for more challenging and more fun dungeons and trials, with mechanics you MUST dodge or you die. Currently the dungeons and evne the trials never require using the roll dodge, it can help a bit sure, but is never really neccesary to win.

reagen_lionel

Axer wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I happen to use dodge roll in many situation with my Sorcerer, a guy ready to throw a knife while the other tries to overpower you? Not a problem you roll to the guy throwing the knife and you save precious health and stamina for doing so!

I only have some issues in dongeons with AoEs, sometimes, because I need to dodge out of it as fast as possible but I get locked in animations wich prevents me from dodging out of it.

Finaly, beeing able to dodge roll around your foes back like Link feels super epic!

Guessing your referring 100% to pvp.

You guys really need to preface your posts about that.

Because no. You plain and simply CANNOT dodge roll the guy who tosses a knife at you. Knives in pve are HEAT SEEKING. Not even the most perfect dodge roll will have any impact on their damage. They always hit you.
.

What the hell are you talking about? I can dodge roll from projectiles easily. yeah they heat seek you in every other way (even when out of line of sight ) except when you dodge roll.

I can do this reliably on everything from monsters to even bosses.

the only problem I see with dodge is that it can use more invincibility frames. during the animation.

Axer

reagen_lionel wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I happen to use dodge roll in many situation with my Sorcerer, a guy ready to throw a knife while the other tries to overpower you? Not a problem you roll to the guy throwing the knife and you save precious health and stamina for doing so!

I only have some issues in dongeons with AoEs, sometimes, because I need to dodge out of it as fast as possible but I get locked in animations wich prevents me from dodging out of it.

Finaly, beeing able to dodge roll around your foes back like Link feels super epic!

Guessing your referring 100% to pvp.

You guys really need to preface your posts about that.

Because no. You plain and simply CANNOT dodge roll the guy who tosses a knife at you. Knives in pve are HEAT SEEKING. Not even the most perfect dodge roll will have any impact on their damage. They always hit you.
.

What the hell are you talking about? I can dodge roll from projectiles easily. yeah they heat seek you in every other way (even when out of line of sight ) except when you dodge roll.

I can do this reliably on everything from monsters to even bosses.

the only problem I see with dodge is that it can use more invincibility frames. during the animation.

No you cant.

You can only pre empt such attacks. Actaully dodging based on seeing the thing come at you is impossible.

And it currently has zero invuln frames, so yes a few would go a long way.

reagen_lionel

Axer wrote: »

reagen_lionel wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I happen to use dodge roll in many situation with my Sorcerer, a guy ready to throw a knife while the other tries to overpower you? Not a problem you roll to the guy throwing the knife and you save precious health and stamina for doing so!

I only have some issues in dongeons with AoEs, sometimes, because I need to dodge out of it as fast as possible but I get locked in animations wich prevents me from dodging out of it.

Finaly, beeing able to dodge roll around your foes back like Link feels super epic!

Guessing your referring 100% to pvp.

You guys really need to preface your posts about that.

Because no. You plain and simply CANNOT dodge roll the guy who tosses a knife at you. Knives in pve are HEAT SEEKING. Not even the most perfect dodge roll will have any impact on their damage. They always hit you.
.

What the hell are you talking about? I can dodge roll from projectiles easily. yeah they heat seek you in every other way (even when out of line of sight ) except when you dodge roll.

I can do this reliably on everything from monsters to even bosses.

the only problem I see with dodge is that it can use more invincibility frames. during the animation.

No you cant.

You can only pre empt such attacks. Actaully dodging based on seeing the thing come at you is impossible.

And it currently has zero invuln frames, so yes a few would go a long way.

You can dodge incoming projectiles from visual cue. I've done it on the spider boss in every attack. If you're in melee range, you wont have enough room to even do it, cause of the travel time. If you have enough room to charge, you definitly have enough room to dodge it.

I've had projectiles at the half way point to hitting me, dodge and it actually went on by and I took no damage. I can do this reliably every single time now. No prediction at all. It can already be in flight and I can dodge roll if I have the stamina and it will miss.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Roll dodge will at least mage standard ranged attacks miss you... but not melee attacks.

I still think it costs too much stamina.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Roll dodge will at least mage standard ranged attacks miss you... but not melee attacks.

I still think it costs too much stamina.

It is actualy possible to dodge those. But I agree, melee is definitly more tricky to dodge. You can still avoid beeing hit by melee hits (even AoEs categorised as Melee) but it requieres you know your ennemy attack patern and dodge preventively before you even got attacked.

For the stamina cost, I think it is ok, most of the melee builds do usualy not have great stamina spenders (or situational at best) and can spare a couple of dodge between their normal cycle of attacks (especialy DW with their low stamina cost skills). Sword&Board relies more on blocking sinds it has the reduced cost to it, and Magicka based builds usualy don't need Stamina spenders sinds their damage output comes exclusively out of their magicka, so they might only be able to dodge a couple of times but they also don' t use it for anything else.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

As long as damn near everything costs stamina, its not ok. As long as there is not a magical stamina build that allows you to solo Group content like there is a magika build, then it needs much much work.

Khazaad

I think there's an issue of clarity regarding attack recognition. (ex. projectile activation vs. flight time vs. damage resolution)

I think bosses' and mob ranged AOEs appear to further confuse things because the damage resolution is mechanically different. Player ranged AOEs must be activated with an action (then placed) then triggered with another action, then damage is resolved.

It is possible the AI version consolidates the steps. (reticle is placed and triggered simultaneously) Throw in animation and hang time as variables and it gets puzzling.