AoE needs to be toned down in PvP - Whats your solution if not a cap ?

moXrox

At the moment the very high dmg ouput of AoE abilities in PvP can decimate a whole group of 25+ players in just seconds by 3-4 players.

Most of you will know this video, if not watch it please:
http://www.twitch.tv/prydatv/c/4079857

The video shows that there is no really bigger tactic or skill in it.



A lot of people dont want to see an AoE cap with 6 units, alright.


What is your solution to fix the AoE in pvp currently then ?

Discuss

prana33b14_ESO

One skill anyone could have used. Magelight before running into the keep and bunching up. Quit being bad. Next.

alexpohlmannb16_ESO

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moXrox wrote: »

The video shows that there is no really bigger tactic or skill in it.
What is your solution to fix the AoE in pvp currently then ?
Discuss

The video shows that the zerg is completely brainless. A brainless zombie zerg should always lose against an organized guild/group. Even if they are just 4.

Its not like AoE are overpowered. If you spread out infight on open field you will pick apart the bombing teams.

Imo they shouldn't nerf AoE at all. The game is released for like a month now. People just dont have any clue how to react in special situations. It will take time till people know that they have to spread out when they see a Vamp in Devouring Swarm or a dragon standard.
My solution is patience and learn the game before calling everything overpowered.
Run a bombing team yourself and you can easilly encounter such teams.

moXrox

If you call the alternative to a cap just "patience and learn the game"...why don you just learn and have the patience with a cap ?

Like you see such a comment is not the answer to an AoE cap and for a pvp AoE solution.


So please contructive suggestions.

prana33b14_ESO

Constructive criticism. Get in organized groups. Check for stealth groups before charging into keep. You get the skill pretty early in the game. Would have saved them a lot of deaths. Nope. Gotta nerf stuff instead.

Xsorus

moXrox wrote: »

At the moment the very high dmg ouput of AoE abilities in PvP can decimate a whole group of 25+ players in just seconds by 3-4 players.

Most of you will know this video, if not watch it please:
http://www.twitch.tv/prydatv/c/4079857

The video shows that there is no really bigger tactic or skill in it.



A lot of people dont want to see an AoE cap with 6 units, alright.


What is your solution to fix the AoE in pvp currently then ?

Discuss

What's my current solution to fix AOE int his game?

One player go this way <

---

---

> Other player goes that way

Amazing how well it works

moXrox

In other words most people who did comment here have no solution.

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

Constructive criticism. Get in organized groups. Check for stealth groups before charging into keep. You get the skill pretty early in the game. Would have saved them a lot of deaths. Nope. Gotta nerf stuff instead.

Who says that these 30 people were not already in organized groups or guilds.

And furthermore, why should someone who is not organized in a guild or group kill almost all players in this castle.



The AoE ability is so cheap that you dont need a strategy, no skill and not even organized groups.

Samadhi

moXrox wrote: »

...
What is your solution to fix the AoE in pvp currently then ?
...

I don't use AoEs, but I feel the mostly laughable radius that most AoEs have already covers this issue.
Cyrodiil is a very large map; there is a lot of room to kite.

prana33b14_ESO

Yet a simple magelight would have stopped all that. Amazing how that works. You need 30 people stupid enough to not use it to get to do that.

Malediktus

AoE cap is a good solution, since the solution must also be considered for PVE. People who cry for no AoE cap just want to easily farm unorganized groups without effort.

Xsorus

moXrox wrote: »

In other words most people who did comment here have no solution.

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

Constructive criticism. Get in organized groups. Check for stealth groups before charging into keep. You get the skill pretty early in the game. Would have saved them a lot of deaths. Nope. Gotta nerf stuff instead.

Who says that these 30 people were not already in organized groups or guilds.

And furthermore, why should someone who is not organized in a guild or group kill almost all players in this castle.



The AoE ability is so cheap that you dont need a strategy, no skill and not even organized groups.

Did you just ask why should better players be able to kill worse players in a keep?

Malediktus

Lol @ calling those people in the video better players
They only abused overpowered AoE skills. I saw no act of skill.

tw1jaysin

They were able to sneak all the way to the cap point. If they were spotted before they got through the gate then they would have most likely been killed.

After they got through the gate, almost every opponent had their back to the door. That's poor positioning and bad awareness. Always watch your back. That's like rule #1 in any pvp environment.

I also noticed the AD were in the middle of a cap and npc's were still fighting them, not to mention there are other friendly players helping the 3 party members.

Just for the record I main a Bosmer NB and currently have no AoE.

prana33b14_ESO

Well they were clearly better than the people that didnt check for stealthers and grouped up like lemmings. OK. Let's say an AOE cap exists. Instead of spreading out like they should have and had scouts checking for other groups entering, stealth groups like the one that blew them up, etc. let's just say they just mass up like they did. When those guys try to protect their keep or whatever they hit a few of the zerg with their aoes and likely kill none while getting mopped up by the stupid zerg who then takes the keep without any strategy or thinking. Unless a bigger zerg rolls them they will just keep up this mindless crap play. Even if a bigger zerg rolls them they will just keep up this mentality. That's dumb and is not the game play that promotes small groups being able to function in AvA.

moXrox

This AoE has allegedly 1700DPS - damage per second. You can hear someone is talking about it in the video.

prana33b14_ESO

oh noes not big numberz!

Minack

ITT: Garbage-tier mouth breathers getting clown stomped.

Xsorus

moXrox wrote: »

This AoE has allegedly 1700DPS - damage per second. You can hear someone is talking about it in the video.

Yes...Generally speaking, if your AOE hits lots targets.... You get high DPS

But if your AOE hits 1 target, you don't..

Its like the concept of AoE is foreign to you and you don't quite grasp how it works.

Xsorus

Malediktus wrote: »

Lol @ calling those people in the video better players
They only abused overpowered AoE skills. I saw no act of skill.

and yet, they managed to sneak up on a bunch of herp a derps standing on a flag not watching for incoming..... so yes... they were better players..

moXrox

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

moXrox wrote: »

This AoE has allegedly 1700DPS - damage per second. You can hear someone is talking about it in the video.

Yes...Generally speaking, if your AOE hits lots targets.... You get high DPS

But if your AOE hits 1 target, you don't..

Its like the concept of AoE is foreign to you and you don't quite grasp how it works.

Yeah thats why they died in almost 3 seconds if you watch the video.

Xsorus

moXrox wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

moXrox wrote: »

This AoE has allegedly 1700DPS - damage per second. You can hear someone is talking about it in the video.

Yes...Generally speaking, if your AOE hits lots targets.... You get high DPS

But if your AOE hits 1 target, you don't..

Its like the concept of AoE is foreign to you and you don't quite grasp how it works.

Yeah thats why they died in almost 3 seconds if you watch the video.

I'm sorry, do you think those AoE skills magically hit harder then single target skills?

i mean you can see how much damage its doing, its doing around 183-200 damage a pop.....Do you know why those targets died that fast? and it wasn't because that 1 sorc was nuking them, It was because they had a bunch of people AoEing the same spot.

prana33b14_ESO

I really had hope that the devs would stand by their statements about creating an unforgiving environment like DAOC but it seems they are already caving to the crap people like moXrox cries about. "30 of us were too dumb to check for stealthers and grouped up in a blob, nerf their skillz now so we don't have to think!"

Samadhi

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

...

i mean you can see how much damage its doing, its doing around 183-200 damage a pop.....Do you know why those targets died that fast? and it wasn't because that 1 sorc was nuking them, It was because they had a bunch of people AoEing the same spot.

A group of coordinated people were able to take out a mass of disorganized people?
That's crazy talk, superior numbers should always win.

Xsorus

Samadhi wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

...

i mean you can see how much damage its doing, its doing around 183-200 damage a pop.....Do you know why those targets died that fast? and it wasn't because that 1 sorc was nuking them, It was because they had a bunch of people AoEing the same spot.

A group of coordinated people were able to take out a mass of disorganized people?
That's crazy talk, superior numbers should always win.

i know right...They knocked down that door of that keep..They were clearly safe and shouldn't be watching for incoming!

moXrox

People in the thread who vote for or against the AoE cap are actually a little more honest. Who admit that the AoE in general is not the problem but individual AoE skills like from the vampire skill line or pulsar from the destruction stave.

Nobody did mention the following:

* the broken Vampire AoE "Bat Swarm"
* that almost all AoE abilities have a CAP already
* diminishing returns for mass AoE as a possibility




At the end we are lucky that we have expirienced developer who decide how the game looks like.

RivenEsq

Balance individual skills based on their impact on the game and make damage higher in the center and lower on the outside. Rewards good skill placement and doesn't just make it nuke everyone unless they're stacked really close, which should be punished.

Valei

Nerf bat swarm. Cap secondary effects. Reduce overall TTK from AoE - in other words tone down damage. (But gradually as to not nerfbat AoE in another way).

Soban

Purge.

Gaudrath

Two solutions come to mind that could work with the existing combat system.

1. AoE gets friendly fire. Believe me, friendly fire is the biggest, most effective pirannha-zerg killer there is.

2. AoE has self-root + channel. So it might be something you would use in a furball for a big damage hit, but it would make you vulnerable and it would be easier to dodge out of. You certainly wouldn't be able to move and use it, and it would take time to set up and execute.

#2 ties to my belief that AoE is something which should be used for area of denial, not primary damage output. Think mages channeling meteor rain on walls or in front of a battering ram. Not a bunch of fighters running like madmen blindly swinging swords or whatnot.

Xsorus

moXrox wrote: »

People in the thread who vote for or against the AoE cap are actually a little more honest. Who admit that the AoE in general is not the problem but individual AoE skills like from the vampire skill line or pulsar from the destruction stave.

Nobody did mention the following:

* the broken Vampire AoE "Bat Swarm"
* that almost all AoE abilities have a CAP already
* diminishing returns for mass AoE as a possibility




At the end we are lucky that we have expirienced developer who decide how the game looks like.

the Vampire AoE isn't broken because how many people it hits..Its broken based on the fact you can get its cost down to virtually nothing.

I mean bat swarm is one of the easiest things in the game to counter..You simply spread out....Or have one of your Sorcs throw down Nullfield and watch as the vampire instantly dies.

chrisub17_ESO104

I think the premise of the post is wrong. Most people have a bad reaction when they hear aoe cap, because of GW2. What most people do not know, is that it was really a combination of aoe cap plus how aoe worked, that made it bad.

In GW2 aoe was almost all ground based, and did not stack. In this game most ground based aoe does stack, and lots of aoe is not ground based at all.

What this means is that in GW2 if a zerg all stacked on a dime, only one aoe could hit them at a time. So 3 people attacking a zerg stack in GW2 with aoe would result in 6 people getting hit. In ESO it would result in 18 hits (not necessarily 18 different people).

So aoe damage even with caps will still scale fairly well in ESO, unlike GW2.

More importantly, if you are going to throw out a possible solution, you need a good reason to do so. Because it didn't work in GW2 is not valid. At least not if you want to be taken seriously.

Personally I would prefer some type of diminishing return based on the number of players hit, up to a hard cap. But that specific solution implemented well is harder to do. It would most likely involve a lot of extra distance calculations and such, and I imagine they might have concluded it simply wasn't worth the effort.

Fixing individual abilities as they become problematic is kind of a never ending thing. Players will keep finding ways to abuse abilities without limits until all, or most, have to be capped in some fashion. As a developer, you want a more elegant, global solution to the problem.