Pact Advocate [Spoilers] not for the fragile disposition

jesterstear

I've gotten used to this game giving me options when ending a quest chain. A murderer, a spy, a traitor, mad scientist, crazed violent alcoholic, have all been apprehended, and it's my choice whether to let them live or die. I'll be honest, I killed most of them. If they took lives, or assisted another in doing so (that doctor who was abducting townsfolk to feed to his vampire son) i'm not going to stop a grieving relative taking revenge.

Then this Green Pact quest comes along, you have to find the one that violated the green pact and caused the wild life to turn feral. I'll be honest, I maybe have a bias against the Bosmer and their religion being a RL vegetarian. Previous quests set the stage with you having to put down an insurrection rescue a poor Khajit from getting his arm cut off by some GP zealot.

So, you find out that a villager with a terminal illness who is going to die unless she picks a rare flower to make a cure, is the one responsible for causing the situation.

I was fully expecting an option to show her leniency, or even fight your way out of their cave with this poor woman. Instead , the only option is to personally lead her to execution! Even at the last moment I was hoping the plant spirits would announce it had all been a test of faith or whatever, but no, we are going to burn our witch.

Feel a bit weird about the whole thing. This quest should come with a warning!

Glurin

"Warning: This quest is all about crazed forest spirits wanting vengeance for someone murdering a defenseless flower and will not conclude without somebody getting dead."

There you go. One quest warning label.

Danariel

Just like real life, sometimes the choices suck, and sometimes you just don't have a choice. My sympathy was also with the poor lady, but the good of the many, etc...

TheMadGod

This is far from the truth there is evidence to accuse all three of them for committing the violation against the green pact. The evidence for the spinner's wife is easiest to find, but I actually ended up picking the khajit because of information I found out in his evidence, and on the way down to the chamber he admitted to cutting the flower. I think it was the hardest to find evidence to convict the Spinner, but the evidence to convict all three is there.

Edit: The khajit's divine evidence was the stone next to his smoldering cart in front of his tent, and the invoice in the tent. The Spinner's evidence was his totem or sigil or something I don't remember specifically what it was called, smashed in front of his home because of the storm and the plant cuttings inside of his home. And the Spinner's wife was the journal in her home and..was it a note written by the treethane about her sign being active in the sky? It was something like that.

Viverim

Odd. I could only find one bit of evidence for the Khajit and two for the spinner. The girl was the only one who had all three. Personally I thought it should have been the spinner, as that would have (in my opinion) made a better story. I wasn't fond of that one either, but the Queen never promised being one of her 'eyes' would be an easy task...

Justiciar

While you can accuse any of them if you find all the pieces I still went with the female as she orchestrated the whole event. Given the option I would also have killed the khajiit as he did break the pact by following her orders. The only one innocent in my eyes was her husband as he genuinely thought the flower was obtained correctly and in keeping with the gp

TheMadGod

I was actually going to go with the Spinner's wife myself until the person I quested with provided a very convincing arguement. The plants wanted the person's blood that cut the flower, even if it did seem like she orchestrated it the khajit was the one that physically cut the flower. Unfair? Perhaps, but the Green Pact can be a bit finnicky at times, as can other religious agreements, and yes I completely agree that the only one innocent was the Spinner because he honestly thought that the plant parts were a gift from the Green, the Pact does dictate that you can use plant parts already laying on the ground fallen from the trees or perhaps already cut by someone else, but that last part's a big dodgy, as it should be.

Edit: Right, also for some reason I'm assuming it's a glitch of sorts, after you find one pieces of evidence in town all the submarkers vanish making everything else extremely hard to find. That's why most people are probably only finding evidence for his wife. It was the easiest to locate. I spent a good 10-15 minutes looking for the rest.

jellymanisme

I disagree about accusing the Khajit. He isn't bound by the Green Pact and so shouldn't be bound by it's punishments either.

Viverim

jellymanisme wrote: »

I disagree about accusing the Khajit. He isn't bound by the Green Pact and so shouldn't be bound by it's punishments either.

This was my main thought for why the Khajit never made any sense. They might abide by the Pact, but for them it's only a social choice. There is nothing in their history which binds them to it.

nexmilitis

I disagreed with the whole quest and find the Green Pact rather disturbing as an ideal. Personally, I would have rather slaughtered the tree spirit and be done with the whole GP peace then let that poor woman die. However, that wasn't even an option. An alternative option, which would have allowed the quest to remain on course, was to accuse one of the GP adherents to the "crime" of picking a flower (a FLOWER), and let them be sacrificed to their "wonderful" tree god...

Darsh

We should totally have the option to help the accused instead. Who cares about those darn plants?

Glurin

You can also question the suspects before making an accusation. The Khajiit makes a convincing argument. Even if you accused him, that doesn't solve the problem since he doesn't follow the green pact and he only cut the flower after someone paid him to do it.

You see the same issue when dealing with contract killers. Who is responsible for the murder? The killer, the guard who looked the other way, or the one who hired the killer?

djwolfnrb19_ESO

I find the entire "You can kill animals and wipe out sentient beings but don't pick the flowers" kind of annoying. But then I don't really understand why the three alliances are at war, so... Did the Argonians upset the high elves? It's all a little bit contrived... LOL

KerinKor

Is this bugged?

I can find 1/3 and 2/3 and 3/3, the hint tells me to accuse Gathiel but this isn't the 'right' answer but I don't see what else to do. I've gone back to the houses to look for more evidence but can find none, but Gathiel isn't correct.

I don't see how the Hell to proceed, I'm not allowed to accuse anyone else and can't find any more evidence.

KerinKor

I returned after relogging, another player turned it in at the same time and Rolon was talking to him not me.

So, why did that other player get Gathiel accepted and me not???

KerinKor

Sod it, life's too short for all these bugged quests, I abandoned it and got exactly the same result.

I give up, I see no way to achieve what other players clearly mange, a second player turned it in while I was by Rolon and he too accused Gathiel and was accepted.

Valmond

I found all the pieces of evidence, but i picked the woman because, in the end, she was the instigator and master mind behind the whole thing.

djwolfnrb19_ESO wrote: »

I find the entire "You can kill animals and wipe out sentient beings but don't pick the flowers" kind of annoying. But then I don't really understand why the three alliances are at war, so... Did the Argonians upset the high elves? It's all a little bit contrived... LOL

Bosmer made a pact with the forest, the trees and plants in it to be specific, so it's understandable why the plants might not want to be eaten.

As for the war, well...
Previous Emperor died, his "heir" was not fit for throne (for reasons).
Aldmer want to rule the lesser races (not sure what Khajiit and Bosmer are getting out of being vassal races), even Queen Ayrenn comes of a subtly racist in the "white mans burden" kinda way at times.

Daggerfall Covenants leader Emeric thinks leaders of other factions are a "bloodthirsty barbarian" and a "child", plus Emeric seems pretty prideful so he wants to rule, not be ruled, Redguard kings daughter is married to Emeric, and Redguards and Bretons promised Orcs their own homeland to join the pact.

Ebonheart Pact seems to not really want the emperorship themselves, but are all about the other two factions not getting it either.

Rikal

All 3 suspects were involved in the events, but since the game forces you to pick one to accuse, clearly the wife is "most guilty" of the three. What a lame quest. PC should at least be able to argue for a lighter sentence.

Falmer

As in Warning: This quest will require you to make a choice on holding someone accountable for their actions.

You are viewing the events through your 'real world' colored glasses for one thing. The forest is every bit alive and sentient here in this setting. Its not 'just' a flower in this setting.

Would your perception of the situation be changed if you replaced 'flower' with 'heart of a young child'? If this wasn't about some plant, but the murder of an innocent child, would you have tried protecting the woman?

Its a living, breathing sentient forest in this setting. The Bosmer there made an agreement with that sentient forest to respect it and treat it as such.

I found all the evidence I could find to ensure I was condemning the most guilty party. In the end, it was clear that she was the instigator who attempted to go around the agreement she had made with the forest for her own benefit. I felt no moral dilemma in sentencing her since I view each party as equals. The forest and the Bosmer have an agreement... You don't attack us, we don't attack you. The woman violated that agreement. She was desperate to save her own life, I get that.

Again, I would ask... would it have changed anything for you if she had murdered an innocent child to save her own life? Because from the forests point of view... She did just that.

jesterstear

The way I see it, they made a pact with the devil to live in a forest that doesn't want animal life there - period. Someone breaks the pact and the devil collects his due. Maybe the villagers could just have left this forest instead of killing one of their own , but there you go. The GP makes an impossible moral problem but you have to bear in mind it makes no sense at all even within the confines of the game world.

What about all the deer etc. the Bosmer normally hunt, how come the forest doesn't wipe them out for murdering its plants? Or has it just got a grudge against humanoids ? The first rule of ecology is that it takes FAR more biomass to sustain a population of herbivores big enough to feed a population of humans , than it does to feed the humans directly. IF the Bosmer ate mostly only seafood, and helped the GP exterminate the herbivore population, it would kind of make sense.

TBH, I can see why this game has an age rating. It does not attempt to hide the brutality of living in a medaeval era - prisoners from other factions being tortured then executed, criminals being executed right in front of the player etc.

Historically accurate I suppose - in the 15th century England had a murder rate similar to war zones like the Congo today.


Lord of the Rings online was hugely sanitised - the enemy were mostly inhuman monsters, instrinsically evil, yet even they were offered mercy on the rare occasions they got captured. Even player characters never actually "die", they are merely forced to "flee the battlefield" when reaching 0 health. And the line of right and wrong in quests is very clear cut, no edginess.

In that respect they've done well with ESO - the fact that we're still talking about this quest - and others, like that guy in Auridon who temporarily turned everyone in the village to stone, and tried to harness Daedra. He didn't kill or hurt anyone directly, and wants to put things back to normal. BUT, he abandoned his assistant and left her for dead.

No matter how many times I look at it, I can't make a completely clear-cut case for killing him one way or the other. They must have run focus groups, listened to people's justification, and when most people were agreed on one course of action, added something to the scenario on the other side to split things again.

For the record, my main let that guy live. Guilty of being reckless and unlucky, and a coward , but no more. My alt chose to tell the truth to the Canonreave, and saw him executed on the spot ! Instant justice.

silent88b14_ESO

KerinKor wrote: »

Is this bugged?

I can find 1/3 and 2/3 and 3/3, the hint tells me to accuse Gathiel but this isn't the 'right' answer but I don't see what else to do. I've gone back to the houses to look for more evidence but can find none, but Gathiel isn't correct.

I don't see how the Hell to proceed, I'm not allowed to accuse anyone else and can't find any more evidence.

I was stuck there awhile. Turns out you need to find the Kajiit's ledger (book in the trade stall in the village). Add that to your evidence and the woman who tried to get around the law and brought death and destruction onto her friends and family will bring her justice of a sort.

Those quick to recommend the law of the jungle often find it isn't very 'nice'.

isengrimb16_ESO

silent88b14_ESO wrote: »

KerinKor wrote: »

Is this bugged?

I can find 1/3 and 2/3 and 3/3, the hint tells me to accuse Gathiel but this isn't the 'right' answer but I don't see what else to do. I've gone back to the houses to look for more evidence but can find none, but Gathiel isn't correct.

I don't see how the Hell to proceed, I'm not allowed to accuse anyone else and can't find any more evidence.

I was stuck there awhile. Turns out you need to find the Kajiit's ledger (book in the trade stall in the village). Add that to your evidence and the woman who tried to get around the law and brought death and destruction onto her friends and family will bring her justice of a sort.

Those quick to recommend the law of the jungle often find it isn't very 'nice'.

It isn't meant to be. It's the law of the selfish gene, survival of the geneline of itself and its own related genelines, to hell with the rest. Memeplexes (cultures) parasite in the mind along for the ride, but have no less self-interest in their own long-term survival.

As someone pointed out above, it took the Western world a long time to get to the cushy high ground where we can afford to moan about rights and wrongs.
Would we describe 15th century England as a "war zone"?

Go to Nirn (at ESO's point in time, anyway) or Azeroth, or even Middle Earth and start talking about the principles of the Geneva Convention and its rights and wrongs, you'll be lucky to get no more than a blank stare from most people.

silent88b14_ESO

Wouldn't a 'Justice' that is 'nice' to criminals seem just a little bit suspicious?

isengrimb16_ESO

silent88b14_ESO wrote: »

Wouldn't a 'Justice' that is 'nice' to criminals seem just a little bit suspicious?

Ever been to Canada?

I just mostly wanted to add, I came across a wandering merchant with a pack horse today. I stopped to do some repair and bag-emptying, but it gave me the option to try to rob him with intimidating presence. I've never seen that before.

No, I didn't rob him, I was too surprised to see the option.

Shiaxi

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

silent88b14_ESO wrote: »

Wouldn't a 'Justice' that is 'nice' to criminals seem just a little bit suspicious?

Ever been to Canada?

I just mostly wanted to add, I came across a wandering merchant with a pack horse today. I stopped to do some repair and bag-emptying, but it gave me the option to try to rob him with intimidating presence. I've never seen that before.

No, I didn't rob him, I was too surprised to see the option.

if you check your achievements tab you'll actually see that there's an achievement associated with robbing the merchant

isengrimb16_ESO

Le sigh. Nice guys finish last, lol.

Rayadrel

And this is why we need the Imperial Guards back.
They'd solve everything by swooping in instantly, proclaiming that the law has been violated and demanding a fine be paid or a sentence be served.

isengrimb16_ESO

Rayadrel wrote: »

And this is why we need the Imperial Guards back.
They'd solve everything by swooping in instantly, proclaiming that the law has been violated and demanding a fine be paid or a sentence be served.

That's what I thought would happen, that it was some kind of trick.

Rayadrel

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

Rayadrel wrote: »

And this is why we need the Imperial Guards back.
They'd solve everything by swooping in instantly, proclaiming that the law has been violated and demanding a fine be paid or a sentence be served.

That's what I thought would happen, that it was some kind of trick.

Well the truth of the matter is the Dominion has to kiss the Bosmer's rear even if it means putting up with their rubbish culture and to be fair the Bosmer are beholden to an actual psychotic deity who can and will screw them over if they don't do what she says, and I mean screwed over as in "entire forest rises up to murder them".
So the outcome is consistent and makes sense.

Asasinka

I accused the Spinner's wife because she was the one responsible for all of it.
In fact You can accuse anyone because the evidence is present for all of them
but:
the Spinner was innocent because he didn't know anything about flower's origin
the Khajit was innocent because he wasn't bound by green pact
and absolutely, there has to be option to persuade the forest not to kill her, it's horrible to be just an observer

OuterFlabia

Why do people seem to think that the khajit is not bound by the pact? is the cat in the forest? is it alive? then it is bound by the pact! Simply because the Bosmer made the pact first, does not mean that it does not apply to all the bosmer allow into their realm.