A Word on Nerfing

Brewdie

PLEASE DON'T!

Recent patch notes state that Doshia had been leveled down. When I had done that quest I'd completed it at level, on a DK (tank). It was a difficult fight. It took me a few deaths to complete. It took me time to finish. But when it was done, I sighed in relief, called her a couple of names, and walked out of there feeling accomplished.

I see many people in guild chat especially, "omg how do i kill Doshia!", "Doshia is impossible", "How to Doshia!". And these are met with simple responses: "Avoid the aoe damage, and try to interrupt it." "Kill the orbs before they get to her they heal you too." Afterwards those very same people that had complained: "omg what a tough fight, thanks!" "wow i spent forever doing that, finally done."

MMO's have too often catered to the "community" by shifting down. What ever happened to "hard work"? Too many times you find upcoming nerfs to encounters or quests, and people rush to finish before it's changed. These things are meant to be difficult. They are meant to challenge and it is within that challenge that most, myself included, find enjoyment in playing a game like ESO.

With specific regard to Doshia, there really was no need. It isn't VR content where you are stuck at 50. You can go out and play an hour more, gain a level or two and come back and wipe it up, there really was no need in this instance.

That is not to say that I don't feel that nerfs, on occasion, may be necessary. This is highly dependent on future raid encounters, as i feel that's the only place a proposed nerf should be put. But please Zeni, unless you have an overwhelming amount of the community... AT MAX LEVEL, complaining about being unable to progress because the encounter is just THAT difficult, please keep the nerfing to a minimum.

This title has done wonders for setting a certain skill cap, "learn your character, or you're going to have a rough time out there" kinda cap. Don't take that away, with needless nerfs.

-Brewdie

Varghjarta

I am with you. Frustrated with people complaining that it's too hard and now she's been nerfed. I hope it won't be a big one.

The best part of this game is that it's refreshingly challenging. I absolutely love this game and am a staunch proponent, defending in zone nonstop about how much I think it's the next big thing. Putting the RPG into MMORPG again. Perhaps for the first time.

Please don't make this game toddler-friendly.

I defeated Doshia at level 6 with a tank Nightblade, level 7 with a resto Templar. Others too.

Most people who are struggling with this game are refusing to adapt to active combat. No blocks. No dodges. No bashes. If you stand in stuff you're going to get stomped. Otherwise, I am not a competitive professional gamer or anything, but I can handle 3 mobs that are 3 or 4 levels above me with some shrewd decision making. Surely someone who is being more conservative shouldn't have too difficult of a time. My family and I like to do dungeons 2 to 3 levels below recommended. The challenge is so fun. Even if we wipe many times!

Literally you can't lose to Doshia if you take out her healing orbs in time. With A Resto Templar I had to go through like 10 orb cycles and kill her with attrition. She is not difficult. She's not cheap. She's mechanic based.

If you're having difficulty with the game it's not shameful to completely reanalyze your strategies, try to learn or relearn the combat basics, practice WASD movement coordination or practice mouse targeting for adaptive target switching. There are players who came into this without having ever played other real-time-action MMOs (compared to the ones where you just trade hits or kite at best) and that is totally fine! There is room enough for everyone.

I would contend, however, that bringing the difficulty down, rather than helping to educate the struggling players with how they can improve their situations is a real disservice to the game. There are already tons of too-easy games for super casual players. I don't want to see my beloved ESO turn into that.

Ysne58

I've been advocating the allowing of grouping instead of nerfing for those of us who can't solo this. I'll find out if I can solo the nerfed version. If I can, I'll probably feel like I cheated. I would prefer to be able to group instead of the nerfing because those who can solo, love the challenge and I don't think it's fair to take that away.

TheBaldGuy

I hope this does not sound to pessimistic, but considering the difference made when they nerfed Mannimarco on the pts, I wager it will be a big nerf.

Sakiri

How many of the "its easy" folks have done it on multiple factions?

The difficulty going from the big, spacious room in AD to the tiny cubbyhole in EP was amazingly large. Orbs are harder to kill when they spawn almost on her, tucked in a corner.

imposterazb14_ESO

I was having a hard time with Doshia as a lvl 8 Sorceress until guildmates gave me the hint to take out the orbs as they would heal me as well as Doshia. That gave me a fighting chance and then I developed the tactic to not only shoot them to heal myself but to keep Doshia from healing. It took 4-5 attempts but I was finally able to bring her down and felt a great deal of accomplishment. If you nerf her too much, this will become just another quest and not a major rite of passage. I suggest more helpful info on how to deal with her rather than nerf her down. If she is nerfed a lot, how about a nice title bestowed on characters that were able to take her (at or below level) before the nerf??

Sakiri

Nerfs are what happens. Its inevitable. People just cant accept that.

Raash

Sakiri wrote: »

How many of the "its easy" folks have done it on multiple factions?

The difficulty going from the big, spacious room in AD to the tiny cubbyhole in EP was amazingly large. Orbs are harder to kill when they spawn almost on her, tucked in a corner.

I have, and while it wasnt as easy on EP as on AD(Was AD in beta) it still was doable, atleast as a sorcerer with a 2h sword at quest level. I died 4 times before I got it right. They could have added a "hint"-tooltip or just remake the spawnpoint instead of making her a mudcrab. Anyway, so Zenimax, when can we expect to see Nenaronald in veil falls be wielding a big loaf of bread instead of a 2h weapon?

Sakiri

Give it a month.

More of the people you guys hate so much will come of age to do later quests thatll be too hard and theyll nerf it.

And if you want to see some BS, my dw dk did both final quests for mages and fighters guilds at 37 by cheezing the crap out of silver bolts. Yeah. That ability isnt broken.

Jonnymorrow

I agree, this game is far too easy. Problem with that is I'll lose interest faster and quit faster. So let's make it more challenging not even more of a push over.

Sakiri

Jonnymorrow wrote: »

I agree, this game is far too easy. Problem with that is I'll lose interest faster and quit faster. So let's make it more challenging not even more of a push over.

Wont happen. You want challenging, itll be raid content. Maybe vet dungeon. Solo stuff? Probably not. Current stuff? Nope.

Raash

Just did the encounter at daggerfall cov and i must say they did not reduce her power. They took her power away completely. Fight was over in 3-4 seconds, litterally. way to go z-max.

Epona222

What really needs to happen here is that people should be allowed to group to do these fights. I find that fight difficult (pre-patch), because I'm a bit rubbish, and I'm forced to do it solo.
Allowing people to group for that fight would not spoil the fun for those who like a difficult challenge and want to do it solo, but would allow people who have problems to team up or ask for help from friends or guildmates.

Don't nerf - just allow more grouping instead of forced solo instances, this is an MMO and more of it should be able to be completed as a social experience.

Spiritreaver_ESO

Sakiri wrote: »

How many of the "its easy" folks have done it on multiple factions?

The difficulty going from the big, spacious room in AD to the tiny cubbyhole in EP was amazingly large. Orbs are harder to kill when they spawn almost on her, tucked in a corner.

I never even thought other factions had more room to work with. That would make some of the advice i have read make a bit more sense.

All in all though, i don't think the problem was Doshia per se. I think it was the design of that monster type in general - Harvesters. And actually, let's lump a two other mob types in the mix as well: trolls and kamatsus(spelling sorry). I'm sorry ZOS, but something is wrong when mobs 10+ levels under you can single-handedly trounce you if you don't fight them 'just so'.

Demonsmaw

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

I'm sorry ZOS, but something is wrong when mobs 10+ levels under you can single-handedly trounce you if you don't fight them 'just so'.

These two types of creatures do seem to be significantly harder than anything else.

Instead of Nerfing the creatures (e.g. Doshia & Irazur) it might work better if the level of the quest was increased as compared to other level 8 quests it is decidedly harder - anyone new to the quest is going to expect that its doable at level 8 and in-line with the other quests they have around that level. If its supposed to be a major step-up then why not just have it say its level 10-13 or whatnot.

Tannakaobi

The sad part of this was Doshia was actually really easy when you knew what to do even at level 8. I mean, come on... How many other bosses fully heal you?

I would compare Doshia to other Bosses except I can't. What with there being 10-20 Templars camping each one.

EvoX777

I was able to handle Doshia before the nerf. Died maybe 3 or 4 times & figured out that using a bow on the orbs was what I needed to survive. Not the case with Irazur. I've died probably a dozen times (most recently 10 min ago at level 45). I've tried 2H, 1H+Shield, Bow, Resto and even respec'd trying to down this damned boss. The slows prevent avoiding the ghost hands cast, stuns prevent doing any damage because I have to pop either a resto heal or green dragon blood in what little time I do get to activate a skill, and I can only destroy three of the four orbs due to trying to stay out of ghost hands and stuns. Screw Fighters Guild.... I'm ready switch sides freaking kill off Sees-All-Colors at this point.

AlexDougherty

Brewdie wrote: »

I see many people in guild chat especially, "omg how do i kill Doshia!", "Doshia is impossible", "How to Doshia!". And these are met with simple responses: "Avoid the aoe damage, and try to interrupt it." "Kill the orbs before they get to her they heal you too." Afterwards those very same people that had complained: "omg what a tough fight, thanks!" "wow i spent forever doing that, finally done."

MMO's have too often catered to the "community" by shifting down. What ever happened to "hard work"? Too many times you find upcoming nerfs to encounters or quests, and people rush to finish before it's changed. These things are meant to be difficult. They are meant to challenge and it is within that challenge that most, myself included, find enjoyment in playing a game like ESO.

With specific regard to Doshia, there really was no need. It isn't VR content where you are stuck at 50. You can go out and play an hour more, gain a level or two and come back and wipe it up, there really was no need in this instance.

That is not to say that I don't feel that nerfs, on occasion, may be necessary. This is highly dependent on future raid encounters, as i feel that's the only place a proposed nerf should be put. But please Zeni, unless you have an overwhelming amount of the community... AT MAX LEVEL, complaining about being unable to progress because the encounter is just THAT difficult, please keep the nerfing to a minimum.

This title has done wonders for setting a certain skill cap, "learn your character, or you're going to have a rough time out there" kinda cap. Don't take that away, with needless nerfs.

-Brewdie

First, It depends on which version of the Doshia fight you're talking about, one of them has her healing with no way for you to prevent it.
Second, It was way to hard for the level of the mission. There are a couple of others the same, one in Grahtwood were you get attacked by mobs of eight or so (not fun or doable in a group less than 3 people).
Third, Depends on the class, nightblade is definately on a loser here, but Dragonknight finds it much easier.
Fourth, Dying repeatedly is not fun, this isn't a case of learn the class, we learnt the class, this is just too hard for the level.
Fifth, if the majority of the community want something nerfed, then chances are it should be nerfed.
Sixth, Difficult Content should be optional, you want the Kudos for doing a difficult quest, fair enough, but don't make it part of the quest line of one of the major guilds at such an early level, just don't.

zhevon

AlexDougherty wrote: »

First, It depends on which version of the Doshia fight you're talking about, one of them has her healing with no way for you to prevent it.
Second, It was way to hard for the level of the mission. There are a couple of others the same, one in Grahtwood were you get attacked by mobs of eight or so (not fun or doable in a group less than 3 people).
Third, Depends on the class, nightblade is definately on a loser here, but Dragonknight finds it much easier.
Fourth, Dying repeatedly is not fun, this isn't a case of learn the class, we learnt the class, this is just too hard for the level.

Yes ...

Its amazing the different Doshia variations - and how badly nightblades do at them. Even with it nerfed I will need to overlevel to complete Doisha. I can't stop the stupid spheres. All of the other content at that level is trivial for my current NB. Maybe I won't even bother again until I am way overleveled.

Spiritreaver_ESO

Quickly @ Doshia to no one in particular,

I have read so much advice on how to beat this boss and Harvester type mobs in general. Many ppl say to range-attack the orbs when they show up, and that works for many in the end, but just want to put this out there as another option-AOE.

Seriously, if you are having trouble with this type mob, and the 'just use a bow, LAWL!!!11!' advice is getting you nowhere, please consider the following:

1) Equip at least one AOE skill on your ability bar.

2) Go into the fight and do as much damage as you can while keep your HP up.

Now this is the trick

3) Listen for the gong. Yes, listen for the gong-type sound that will sound once a Harvester type mob's HP starts getting seriously lowered. This means that four orbs have been summoned.

4) Keep doing what your are doing, but start looking for the orbs. When they are getting close to the mob, run in close if you aren't already face-tanking and spam your AOE.

5) Then just go back to wailing on the mob however you were doing from the start and repeat 3) and 4) as needed.


If you you have been kiting, this tactic gives you free heals and stops all the HP you have chipped off from being restored. If you have been up close anyways, again free heals and breathing room as you get ready for a push to finish the beast off. Seriously, just listen for the gong and have that AOE ready.

And for my Nightblade brethren/sistren, you are not excluded from this tactic. Whirlwind is a WAY underplayed dual wield skill. Yes, DW isn't a Nightblade only weapon, but seriously, going from kiting to Lotus Blade(or w/e you morphed it to) > Whirling Blade; that is a solid tactic you are gonna want to explore for later on when you find yourself consistently coming up against 3+ on 1 situations.

czar

Brewdie wrote: »

Depends on the class, nightblade is definately on a loser here

i think it's a matter of knowing how to kill her, i'm a nb and i killed her at level 6, and trust me i'm not very skilled or anything. i've only done the ad version though

GreySix

Epona222 wrote: »

What really needs to happen here is that people should be allowed to group to do these fights. I find that fight difficult (pre-patch), because I'm a bit rubbish, and I'm forced to do it solo.
Allowing people to group for that fight would not spoil the fun for those who like a difficult challenge and want to do it solo, but would allow people who have problems to team up or ask for help from friends or guildmates.

Don't nerf - just allow more grouping instead of forced solo instances, this is an MMO and more of it should be able to be completed as a social experience.

QFT.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

The only Nerf I want is the random Dolmen that likes to spawn way too many harvesters at once. Storm Atrinarks too. There should only be 2 of those up at most, because both of them freakin cheat.

beowulfsshield

NB archer, didn't have any trouble with Doshia once I read about killing the orbs. Before that I died a few times. It took a few minutes, but ffs, is it really too hard?

I'd hate to see yet another MMO turn into a kiddie pool. It's already pretty easy, but with all the "it's too HARD!" complaints I'm sure it will become toddler friendly at some point.

Calgrissom

Please show me the AOE on your lvl 10 1h/shield Templar? O wait they don't have one. I did this quest before the nerf at level 10 and it was hell to try and kill her with no significant ranged attack or AE. Not everyone is a sorc or a DK and not everyone starts the game using AE weapons. I haven't done the fight post nerf but pre nerf with a temp sword and board it was damn near impossible at the correct level.

BrassRazoo

I had a quick read, and to the people that already beat these "hard bosses" why does it matter if they make them easier for people who are having issues?

You have the medal to pin on your chest and if you ever go back you already have an advantage as you know what to expect.

The game puts people in situations that they cannot complete.
Simple as that.

I have done it but, I am VR7 and play solo 90% of the time.

I have friends that just will not be abled to do things alone that this game expects them to do. They are good group players and not good at very hard solo things.

Should they be left behind?

Forced solo in this game is going to turn a lot of people off.

So if you don't want the game to be easier then at least they need to allow players to invite a partner to help.

Spiritreaver_ESO

Calgrissom wrote: »

Please show me the AOE on your lvl 10 1h/shield Templar? O wait they don't have one. I did this quest before the nerf at level 10 and it was hell to try and kill her with no significant ranged attack or AE. Not everyone is a sorc or a DK and not everyone starts the game using AE weapons. I haven't done the fight post nerf but pre nerf with a temp sword and board it was damn near impossible at the correct level.

Actually the very first skill in the Templar Aedric Spear line can be morphed very early on into an awesome AOE skill. And the second skill in the same chain is a very good ranged attack which can be morphed to have a fairly decent range. Don't neglect allocating character points into magicka and any Templar worth its salt has a both AOE and ranged capabilities from the practically the start of their playthrough.

AlexDougherty

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

Quickly @ Doshia to no one in particular,

4) Keep doing what your are doing, but start looking for the orbs. When they are getting close to the mob, run in close if you aren't already face-tanking and spam your AOE.

As I said, one version has her healing with no way to interupt it, there are no orbs here. NONE.

She just heals, I can't remember if it's Pact or Covenent (not Dominion), but she just heals, and it's a smaller stage, so it's harder to dodge her attacks.

Each faction has a slightly different version, and the tactics to defeat her are not universal. (god I wish they were, the dominion fight was fairly easy)

Spiritreaver_ESO

AlexDougherty wrote: »

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

Quickly @ Doshia to no one in particular,

4) Keep doing what your are doing, but start looking for the orbs. When they are getting close to the mob, run in close if you aren't already face-tanking and spam your AOE.

As I said, one version has her healing with no way to interupt it, there are no orbs here. NONE.

She just heals, I can't remember if it's Pact or Covenent (not Dominion), but she just heals, and it's a smaller stage, so it's harder to dodge her attacks.

Must be DC. Because i'm EP on the majority of the characters i've made from now back to betas, and while the EP area is laughably small, the orbs have always been visible to me. Both on my main machine and on my laptop that i did one beta weekend on.

Your issue with them not showing up might be local to your machine's setup.

Sakiri

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

Quickly @ Doshia to no one in particular,

4) Keep doing what your are doing, but start looking for the orbs. When they are getting close to the mob, run in close if you aren't already face-tanking and spam your AOE.

As I said, one version has her healing with no way to interupt it, there are no orbs here. NONE.

She just heals, I can't remember if it's Pact or Covenent (not Dominion), but she just heals, and it's a smaller stage, so it's harder to dodge her attacks.

Must be DC. Because i'm EP on the majority of the characters i've made from now back to betas, and while the EP area is laughably small, the orbs have always been visible to me. Both on my main machine and on my laptop that i did one beta weekend on.

Your issue with them not showing up might be local to your machine's setup.

I think it's EP.

If you charge right in as melee and don't take note of the fact that she likes to back up as a caster, you'll ram her into a tiny arse little corner and the orbs will spawn on top of her.

The wave also likes to bug out in that corner and shoot straight up rather than out.

I have it on video. She's not so far back that the orbs spawn on her in all four directions, but at least one of them does, and the second one is so close that it might as well have.

I also noticed my templar and sorc killed her quicker than my first DK, and my second DK(stamina build) took forever comparitively.

My templar almost got her before she transformed.

Jeremy

Brewdie wrote: »

PLEASE DON'T!

Recent patch notes state that Doshia had been leveled down. When I had done that quest I'd completed it at level, on a DK (tank). It was a difficult fight. It took me a few deaths to complete. It took me time to finish. But when it was done, I sighed in relief, called her a couple of names, and walked out of there feeling accomplished.

I see many people in guild chat especially, "omg how do i kill Doshia!", "Doshia is impossible", "How to Doshia!". And these are met with simple responses: "Avoid the aoe damage, and try to interrupt it." "Kill the orbs before they get to her they heal you too." Afterwards those very same people that had complained: "omg what a tough fight, thanks!" "wow i spent forever doing that, finally done."

MMO's have too often catered to the "community" by shifting down. What ever happened to "hard work"? Too many times you find upcoming nerfs to encounters or quests, and people rush to finish before it's changed. These things are meant to be difficult. They are meant to challenge and it is within that challenge that most, myself included, find enjoyment in playing a game like ESO.

With specific regard to Doshia, there really was no need. It isn't VR content where you are stuck at 50. You can go out and play an hour more, gain a level or two and come back and wipe it up, there really was no need in this instance.

That is not to say that I don't feel that nerfs, on occasion, may be necessary. This is highly dependent on future raid encounters, as i feel that's the only place a proposed nerf should be put. But please Zeni, unless you have an overwhelming amount of the community... AT MAX LEVEL, complaining about being unable to progress because the encounter is just THAT difficult, please keep the nerfing to a minimum.

This title has done wonders for setting a certain skill cap, "learn your character, or you're going to have a rough time out there" kinda cap. Don't take that away, with needless nerfs.

-Brewdie

I agree and fear the inevitable dumbing-down of this game as well. Because I have seen this happen on MMO after MMO. It's almost like a swarm of locust - flying from game to game and eating out any hint of challenging gameplay to appease players who simply refuse to adapt or learn new ways to play with their characters.

I hope this doesn't happen. But my previous experiences with MMORPGs tell me it will. So I would enjoy the challenge while you can. Chances are it will evaporate soon enough and mindless button mashing will prevail.