Was crafting designed by someone who thought they were making a Free-to-play game?

loudent

I just don't understand a lot of how crafting was designed in the context of a pay-to-play game.

What is the purpose of the "time boxing" of research? Why can't I just research right away or at least have it complete in a play session and where does it end up? The time seems to keep doubling. Is researching the last quality on an particular item really going to take a month? Why? This makes no sense to me.

Why do I have to be at a crafting station to just *view* crafting status. Want to know if your research is done? Back to town with you!

Why was inventory relegated to a gold only option? Why can't cloth/leather folks make bags for us?

Why is there no trading system so you have a place to sell all the extra resources you pick up?.

Granted, after a while you can make some pretty decent stuff but it's never better than what you can look.

The game is actually *more* fun if you don't craft. You don't have to worry about inventory management, you have more cash because you can sell everything, you don't have to run back to town every so often or do the rotate log thing on all your characters to make sure their research.

If someone were to ask me for tips on playing the game, "don't craft" would be near the top of my list.

eNumbra

The time based research is to make it more difficult, and take more dedication to craft the last item sets in the game, it makes sense as a mechanic. But the final research times might be a little insane.

All of my clothing researches are up to 3+ days, so everything that's left is going to be sitting around for a long time.

Trainerdc

I find the crafting in this game amazing. I know it is frustrating for the timers, but hey if everybudy could just inta research crafting would be boring.

For the bags that is a good idea wich should be implemented, but then aggain the same is in wow :P

Leovolao

the game actually prompts a message when the researching is done

I think the bag is limited that way so we won't pick up every mat out there... was having the same problem until I decided to focus only on 2 crafting lines. Also... use your horse for more space

trading system really? Guild stores are a thing.. I've seen lots of mats there. Granted, the 25% tax is ***... but the option is there. Also player to player trades and cod mails. Dude have you even tried to sell something?

the game is more fun for YOU if you don't craft... I'm having a nice time making my own armor. I recently made a set armor... felt pretty good. Maybe you should not be giving advise about a system you don't seem to understand very much

loudent

eNumbra wrote: »

The time based research is to make it more difficult.

Describe to me how it makes it more difficult? You're doing the exact samething as if there was no timer except you have to wait x amount of time. This is exactly how Free-to-play games work (except you can pay real money to remove/reduce the timer.

and take more dedication to craft the last item sets in the game, it makes sense as a mechanic. But the final research times might be a little insane.

It doesn't really have anything to do with dedication. Mechanics like using some of your skill points to level up crafting reflects dedication. Putting in week long research timer does not make you "dedicated"

loudent

Trainerdc wrote: »

I find the crafting in this game amazing. I know it is frustrating for the timers, but hey if everybudy could just inta research crafting would be boring.

How would this affect interest/boredom. Do you really think waiting a week for something to happen makes it more interesting?

Kemono

loudent wrote: »

What is the purpose of the "time boxing" of research? Why can't I just research right away or at least have it complete in a play session and where does it end up? The time seems to keep doubling. Is researching the last quality on an particular item really going to take a month? Why? This makes no sense to me.

Time sink to keep you subed. Joke is -crafted sets are way worse then droped one. And you dont need to spend 2 month researching things to get those sets

loudent wrote: »

Why was inventory relegated to a gold only option? Why can't cloth/leather folks make bags for us?

Gold sink

loudent wrote: »

Why do I have to be at a crafting station to just *view* crafting status. Want to know if your research is done? Back to town with you!

Very annoying
Use this addon -it show research times (and you can configure it any way you want)
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info81-CraftResearchTimer.html

And if you serious about crafting/research -this one too
This mark your loot with small icons that shows what was reseached, what not, and ornate/inticate stuff
VERY handy
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info111-ResearchAssistant.html

clocksstoppe

time based research prevents some jackass who buys 1mil gold from gold farmers for powerleveling to be as effective as a veteran crafter. it is needed.

loudent

leonardo.contrerasviub17_ESO wrote: »

the game actually prompts a message when the researching is done

Sometimes it does. It's glitchy (doesn't always show) and if you miss it because you were in combat or on a load screen (which is easy to do) then it might as well not be there. Would be better served to get an e-mail when crafting is done

I think the bag is limited that way so we won't pick up every mat out there... was having the same problem until I decided to focus only on 2 crafting lines. Also... use your horse for more space

See, that is the exact opposite of what you should do for crafting. Make It very easy to store mats and more difficult to store items. Almost every MMO worth mentioning has some sort of "crafting resource storage" mechanism

"trading system really? Guild stores are a thing.. I've seen lots of mats there. Granted, the 25% tax is ***... but the option is there. Also player to player trades and cod mails. Dude have you even tried to sell something?

And add tot he "WTS" spam that permeates every freaking zone to the point where I'm almost happy to see the gold site selling spam? No thank you.

eNumbra

loudent wrote: »

eNumbra wrote: »

The time based research is to make it more difficult.

Describe to me how it makes it more difficult? You're doing the exact samething as if there was no timer except you have to wait x amount of time. This is exactly how Free-to-play games work (except you can pay real money to remove/reduce the timer.

and take more dedication to craft the last item sets in the game, it makes sense as a mechanic. But the final research times might be a little insane.

It doesn't really have anything to do with dedication. Mechanics like using some of your skill points to level up crafting reflects dedication. Putting in week long research timer does not make you "dedicated"

Breaking up a sentence like that destroys the context of what I said, but I'll clarify it for you snowflake.

The difficulty and dedication come from the part of the craft who have to put in that time to qualify to forge the highest level item sets. Without taking the skill that gives you an extra research and mitigates the time it takes, the time that it currently takes would make it nigh on impossible.

If you want to be a master ESO craftsman, it takes dedication and is not easy.

Or you can keep whining, I don't really care.

AbraCadabra

Not going to address the QQ about research lengths. But would like to point out that there are nice addons that tell you how much time is left on your research and how many items are being researched. The information is visible to you anywhere, not just at a crafting table. Try Wykkyd's Framework. The toolbar in that addon is great.

I don't plan on leveling Blacksmithing and I haven't put a single point into it, but you can bet that I keep that research slot filled. Eventually I may need to level it up at some point and it would be nice to have a headstart on research.

*Not affiliated with Wykkyd nor receiving any compensation for promotion of said addon.

SadisticSavior

loudent wrote: »

What is the purpose of the "time boxing" of research? Why can't I just research right away or at least have it complete in a play session and where does it end up? The time seems to keep doubling. Is researching the last quality on an particular item really going to take a month? Why?

To force you to specialize. You are more likely to specialize in certain traits if researching becomes progressively harder.

Specialized traits mean your skills will be more valuable. The vast (vast) majority of players will not master all traits.

loudent wrote: »

The game is actually *more* fun if you don't craft.

This has not been my experience. If anything, crafting might be a little too easy to do. The crafting system is extremely casual-friendly.

LastLaugh

I agree with some of your complaints but not others. I think it's going overboard to say the crafting system feels like one in a P2W system.

The research timers, while frustrating, are a good idea. I don't want a crafting system that's easily maxed out in a couple of days. I agree it would be useful to be able to see how long is left when you're out and about, though.

I agree the bank slots are too few and are a nuisance to manage.

In the interests of accuracy I feel obliged to point out that there is a trading system, albeit a poor one. But yes, guild stores and zone chat have many problems of their own - in fact, the lack of an AH or adequate search feature in guild stores is a huge problem that transcends crafting. If they're going to redesign anything they should start with this.

Overall, I enjoy crafting itself and am pleased that it's possible to make useful items for your level. The developers should leave crafting as it is but improve the systems that support it.

Vendrath

I very much enjoy the crafting in this game and I disagree with your comment that crafted items are worse than loot items. As for the research timers, they are both a time sink to keep you subbed and also a way to ensure that only those who are dedicated to crafting are able to craft the really nice sets at the special crafting stations.

My only complaint with the crafting system is the bag space issue and I can live with that, just don't like it.

loudent

LastLaugh wrote: »

I don't want a crafting system that's easily maxed out in a couple of days.

Many MMOs have accomplished this without resorting to artificial time barriers.

yodased

Something that I honestly think is not mentioned anywhere NEAR enough in these types or any other they need to change thing threads is this:

The game is less than 1 month out. There is no endgame community, there are no max level crafters, there are no maxed characters.

Until we see what the end result of the hard work is, we are only speculating. Simply because low level armor (even VR1-5) can be found that is better than crafted doesn't mean that you can assume the trend will be that way forever.

Also, I have found that the crafted items if done correctly are actually better than the found items, at least at my current level (26)

loudent

yodased wrote: »

Until we see what the end result of the hard work is, we are only speculating. Simply because low level armor (even VR1-5) can be found that is better than crafted doesn't mean that you can assume the trend will be that way forever.

Except there is a dev quote that the best gear will be dropped, not crafted. So, while we can't know whether or not they will change their minds. As it stands, crafted gear will always be inferior.

LastLaugh

loudent wrote: »

LastLaugh wrote: »

I don't want a crafting system that's easily maxed out in a couple of days.

Many MMOs have accomplished this without resorting to artificial time barriers.

Ok, then what would you suggest? I'm open to alternatives but the current solution to this problem is better than no solution.

yodased

loudent wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Until we see what the end result of the hard work is, we are only speculating. Simply because low level armor (even VR1-5) can be found that is better than crafted doesn't mean that you can assume the trend will be that way forever.

Except there is a dev quote that the best gear will be dropped, not crafted. So, while we can't know whether or not they will change their minds. As it stands, crafted gear will always be inferior.

what?

ESO DEVS wrote:

How will crafted gear compare to dungeon loot and PvP rewards? I hope the crafting system won’t be there just to do something when you're bored, but that it will contribute to the economic health of the game.

Crafted gear of the same level and same quality as gear found in the world is almost always better. For instance, if you find a level 22 sword of fine quality, but your friend crafts a level 22 sword of fine quality, the damage done by the crafted sword is going to be slightly better. However, some of the gear you find in the world will have unique enchantments or set bonuses crafters cannot replicate. Still, a crafter might be able to take that dropped item and make it even better while retaining the unique enchantment.

Actually there is a quote to the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you say...

Source:

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en-uk/news/post/2014/03/10/ask-us-anything-crafting

davidhorstub17_ESO

the problem is all of the traits beside infused are garbage by comparison, and outside of 1 or 2 crafted set bonuses they are all really weak, so in order to make the single decent set bonus of crafted gear i have to spend weeks researching crap traits i will never use, meanwhile you can hit level cap in way less time and start collecting real set bonuses from pvp and pve dungeons. level provisioning and alchemy, the gear/wep lines are bottlenecked by bad sets and ridiculous trait requirements to make.

temjiu

I like the crafting system. best I've played to date. Anm yeah, I've played my share of MMO's.

It has its issues, for sure, and needs some mild tweaking, like many things in the game. But to call it a F2P approach is derogatory in nature. just present your issues with it and leave the topic open for discussion.

In all honesty, I think that they should actually put in some experience for crafting. not a huge amount, but it should return some reward for spending your time crafting instead of grinding or dungeon delving.

SadisticSavior

loudent wrote: »

Many MMOs have accomplished this without resorting to artificial time barriers

examples?

Eve has been using artificial time barriers since the beginning, and it really worked well there.

LastLaugh

temjiu wrote: »

I like the crafting system. best I've played to date. Anm yeah, I've played my share of MMO's.

It has its issues, for sure, and needs some mild tweaking, like many things in the game. But to call it a F2P approach is derogatory in nature. just present your issues with it and leave the topic open for discussion.

In all honesty, I think that they should actually put in some experience for crafting. not a huge amount, but it should return some reward for spending your time crafting instead of grinding or dungeon delving.

I more or less agree with your first two paragraphs. Not sure about granting experience for crafting, though. If this was implemented I would want to see some kind of daily cap to prevent a ridiculous situation (as with GW2) where you could craft your way to the max character level and skip the content entirely.

Aside from devaluing the effort it takes to level via the normal methods, this encourages gold buying because it costs so much gold to get the materials to speed level through crafting.

Also, how is it logical that being an ace tailor makes you a stronger fighter (apart from the benefits your crafted armor grants)? The last I heard, Michael Kors was not kicking Mike Tyson's ass.

Tetujin

Ehhh, if it was a free to play design it would have a way to pay money to speed it up. I think you are comparing more to single-player games rather than subscription/multiplayer.

I think the idea is to make it more likely that you'll have to shop around to complete a set the way you want it--one crafter with everything for heavy gloves, another with belts, and so on--and eventually someone who is maxed out is going to be more valuable as a crafter.

Pretty sure equal level gear is slightly better as far as stats go than drops, by a small margin, and that it is intentional; and crafted gear can be more directly tailored to your preferences. May be easier to get better stuff from drops though. Will be interesting to see if people end up liking the dropped set bonuses in general more than the crafted ones, for sure some of those later crafted ones may be a while in coming.

Fahrice

temjiu wrote: »

In all honesty, I think that they should actually put in some experience for crafting. not a huge amount, but it should return some reward for spending your time crafting instead of grinding or dungeon delving.

No way. You already get a reward for spending your time crafting: crafting levels, and the ability to learn to craft better things and be more efficient at it.

Along the same lines as research, crafting should be an investment of your time that will provide you with relevant rewards. By killing and questing, you gain experience and the ability to grow stronger and kill harder things. Same concept. Crafting should not make you kill things easier, and killing things should not make you a better crafter.

The two systems (crafting and adventuring) should operate independently and *in lieu* of one another. To specialize in one should be due to the sacrifice of the other. When everyone can do everything with little effort, there is no challenge and it's just boring.

Making things take more of a time investment to achieve make them more rewarding for the people who choose to do so. EVE has used time-based skill research for over a decade and they have a huge, dedicated, committed player base and the game is as healthy as ever. To fully research every skill in that game would take over 20 years of real time. Just to be an effective miner of asteroids takes over 3 months of research. And researching those skills is to the detriment of your ability to defend yourself, so you must rely on others to protect you. Again, trade off.

It adds balance and a reward for specialization in that not everyone can do what you do.

knightblaster

As others have pointed out, this is not a F2P mechanic. EVE Online, which has always been a sub game, time gates everything: skill training, research, manufacturing, planetary exploitation -- everything other than combat is on a timer. What it does is create an investment in the game over time. In this context, it prevents someone from powerleveling an armor or weapon craft to max in one afternoon and unlocking all of the traits at the same time -- something which trivializes having all of those unlocked. It is such a pain to have all of them unlocked, that the number of people who will do so will be smaller, and therefore they will reap greater benefits for their patience and investment.

Kroin

Because the ywin time with it, MMO is alway a game of time, can the deliver new staff, befor the mass is throw.

The last research is a month without skillpoint, with skillpoints ist about 25days? i think not sure about that.

glasswalkers_04_ESO

The timer itself doesn't bother me. I've played games where it takes a month to research something.

What bother me is the combination of armorsmithing and weaponsmithing into one craft type. I don't care how dedicated a crafter you are that puts it head and shoulder above all other crafts combined. Twice as many pieces and 2 set of traits to learn. That's just nuts.

That means to do if effectively I have to level crafting on 2 characters which to me defeats the purpose of having 'all crafts' open to everyone.

cubansyrusb16_ESO

My Blacksmithing is level 45 with over 80% of traits unlocked, don't see why you think you need two characters you can research 2 traits at once.

If you think monster loot is better than crafted ...

Tell that to my full crafted VR2 purple quality deadric set forged with set bonuses

Vampire's Kiss - 50% hp regen on killing anything for 8 seconds (3)
Kagrenac's Hope - 12 stamina recovery (3)
Defending trait on all pieces

Good luck finding your loot.

freddy_hgnrb18_ESO

In order to be a master crafter you have to put the time in.

The developers have said that the top level crafted set pieces are going to be the best in the game.

In order to craft those sets, you need to have researched the appropriate number of Traits before you can even craft 1 piece.

My understanding is that the end game set's require a player to have researched 8 traits in order to be able to craft pieces from that set.

I did a rough calculation the other day.
If you were to research all 8 Traits on 1 item (be it weapon or armour) it will take a total of 64 Days (excluding % bonus reductions through skill passives)

Multiply that by 7 armour slots for set pieces (helm, shoulders, chest, gloves, belt, pants, boots) and its a total of 446 days (and that is just for 1 armour type) - eg Medlum Armour.

Add to that another 64 days for each weapon type ...510 days eg: for All medlum armour set, and all traits on a Bow (which is what I am specializing in)

If a player is prepared to put in the effort, that player reaps the rewards

I, for one, hope this aspect of the crafting professions never changes.

Tetujin

Goes to show how much of a value those double or triple research slot perks will be.