Nightblade - Summon Shade

vegeta0585b14_ESO

Okay so I have been looking forward to this skill all game. This skill has been the driving force behind my class choice and has pretty much what's been keeping me going. I really wanted to morph it to Dark Shades. It's as close to a Shadowknight as I could get.

So I was thinking, 42 points, man this skill has to be amazing. It is absolute trash. 42 points in, the final skill in a tree, something you actually give up a skill slot to use!!

It absolutely tickles enemies. I mean I would not be surprised if the enemy started rolling around on the floor laughing as the shade poked it with its daggers. No one expects a summon that just outright murders everyone, but when sacrificing a skill slot, I expect it to do as much as a skill that would normally take up that slot does. Crippling Grasp, Agony, hell even entropy (which is absolutely horrid damage), outdo the shade for their durations. If I pull a mob my level, just throw the shade and hold block, do NOT hit the mob, the shade does about 2-3% of its health.

Okay, so it does crappy damage. Is that all? No, that's not all. It's AI is so borked half the time it just STANDS there. On a normal single mob pull, if all goes well, he does as stated above and stabs the mob repeatedly for laughable damage. Half the time he stabs the mob, then walks back and forth for no apparent reason for a few seconds, then stabs it avian....then resumes walking back and forth for no reason. On a multiple mob pull once the mob you have summoned him on is dead, he will just stand there and watch you fight the other mobs. I thought to myself, "maybe this is how he's supposed to work?" However, that's not how other limited durration summons are working (necrotic orb, shadow silk).

Please, ZOS, look into this skill, as it stands now it is most definitely not worth the skill point, even with the damage debuff on it (which is weaker than the 20% ones available elsewhere anyway)

Nugeneration

Shade is imo a tanking ability at the moment. Flat % damage reduced not affected by the caps is very good. I keep it on my bar, but only for boss fights.

I does need some adjustments before I'd even consider it for a dps setup though.

From a tank standpoint beside the slightly buggy ai it is well worth the slot. You can combine him with the 60% ult and pretty much avoid all forms of death of the duration of the ult. It's the best "oh crap" cool down combo available from all tank classes imo.

ThatHappyCat

Shadow Image is the morph that caught my eye. Depending on how it works it could be an awesome ability in PvP.

Nugeneration

I personally don't see it very useful in current PvP. Current PvP is "usually" zerg style. If you melee you really need to be tanky to survive longer than a few seconds. And the teleport wouldn't help as much as cloak imo of course.

The exception is if you wander around with a few friends looking for small scale fights. While this breathes new life into the majority of melee oriented classes it does take more patience and time to pull off.

Melee always had and always will have a harder time in siege type mass PvP. It does feel good when you have the higher zerg numbers on your team though.

ThatHappyCat

Nugeneration wrote: »

I personally don't see it very useful in current PvP. Current PvP is "usually" zerg style. If you melee you really need to be tanky to survive longer than a few seconds. And the teleport wouldn't help as much as cloak imo of course.

The exception is if you wander around with a few friends looking for small scale fights. While this breathes new life into the majority of melee oriented classes it does take more patience and time to pull off.

Melee always had and always will have a harder time in siege type mass PvP. It does feel good when you have the higher zerg numbers on your team though.

I don't actively participate in zergs, I prefer to gank enemy supply lines.

That said I don't have a Nightblade and don't plan on making one so.

vegeta0585b14_ESO

The single shade teleport morph is kinda silly when I have a teleport with a 70% aoe snare and DoT, which could also be a single target hard hit that makes your next attack hit 50% harder. The teleport one is bleh. And both suffer from the terrible damage and AI.

Lymark

I Just earned the skill and was expected it to be useful for both PVP and PVE. However, I found out its kinda ineffective tho. I'd rather replace it with Aspect of Terror for PVP or simply an extra weapon skill..

strelnikov

So your saying it's like Lyris in the halls of torture .. Stands there... .......

Brasseurfb16_ESO

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

Shadow Image is the morph that caught my eye. Depending on how it works it could be an awesome ability in PvP.

It turns your shade into an rooted archer version of it and you can reuse the power once, for free, to teleport back to the Shade location (very usefull if you need to get out of a pbAoE or swap position in PvP).

Lymark

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

Shadow Image is the morph that caught my eye. Depending on how it works it could be an awesome ability in PvP.

It turns your shade into an rooted archer version of it and you can reuse the power once, for free, to teleport back to the Shade location (very usefull if you need to get out of a pbAoE or swap position in PvP).

Im still thinking whether or not using this skill for PVP or not. Would you prefer Dark shades or Shadow image for PVP usage?

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Lymark wrote: »

Im still thinking whether or not using this skill for PVP or not. Would you prefer Dark shades or Shadow image for PVP usage?

Shadow image for the win. Between those morphs, your 2 shades will have trouble to track any moving target while your Shadow Image will constantly hit at range his target and warent its -15% dmg debuff. Not to mention, if you are a ranged character you can switch places with your shade to avoid charging move and get extra range in a fight.

Stx

Hmm, I am glad that I held out on morphing my summon shade. So the Shadow Image is an archer? And it has reliable damage uptime on his target? Plus it gives you a strategic way to place an escape... I will take that option over 2 shades lol.

fieldmarshall3neb18_ESO

I dont think its supposed to do any damage.
Wish it had infinite duration though, like Sorcerer pets

vegeta0585b14_ESO

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Lymark wrote: »

Im still thinking whether or not using this skill for PVP or not. Would you prefer Dark shades or Shadow image for PVP usage?

Shadow image for the win. Between those morphs, your 2 shades will have trouble to track any moving target while your Shadow Image will constantly hit at range his target and warent its -15% dmg debuff. Not to mention, if you are a ranged character you can switch places with your shade to avoid charging move and get extra range in a fight.

except in pvp you have a spammable 70% snare which is also already a teleport. And dark cloak which not only cloaks you but removes any negative effects on you, to escape. The shadow image is completely redundant in the nightblade's toolkit. Not to mention if you're ranged you have skills from your weapon to keep people away / push you back that are vastly more effective and actually do something. I can appreciate your zeal for the skill, but it's not even remotely as good as you are making it sound. It looks cool, and thats about it.

Stx wrote: »

Hmm, I am glad that I held out on morphing my summon shade. So the Shadow Image is an archer? And it has reliable damage uptime on his target? Plus it gives you a strategic way to place an escape... I will take that option over 2 shades lol.

Also not true. The archer is rooted in place, it can not move and has a pretty small range (not 28m like most bow skills). So unlike the melee versions (Which as mentioned above, you should have quite a few snares in your bag) which can chase the enemy, it stands there and picks its nose as soon as it moves out of range.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

vegeta0585b14_ESO wrote: »

except in pvp you have a spammable 70% snare which is also already a teleport. And dark cloak which not only cloaks you but removes any negative effects on you, to escape. The shadow image is completely redundant in the nightblade's toolkit. Not to mention if you're ranged you have skills from your weapon to keep people away / push you back that are vastly more effective and actually do something. I can appreciate your zeal for the skill, but it's not even remotely as good as you are making it sound. It looks cool, and thats about it.

Read the post again! I was just answering a question concerning the shades and I was saying Shadow Image is more usefull compared to Dark Shades and explained a couple of situation where it could be usefull...

Not to mention there is a huge gap of magicka cost between Shadow Image and Shadow Cloak (wich by the way is the most expensive ability in the game). And if you play a ranged character you have sufficient tools on your weapon skills to keep your ennemies away, like snares and KBs, from you and chase them down if they try to get away. Shadow Image is just a hard counter if your target use a charge ability on you (you can also dodge, but that's more stamina expensive).

vegeta0585b14_ESO wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Hmm, I am glad that I held out on morphing my summon shade. So the Shadow Image is an archer? And it has reliable damage uptime on his target? Plus it gives you a strategic way to place an escape... I will take that option over 2 shades lol.

Also not true. The archer is rooted in place, it can not move and has a pretty small range (not 28m like most bow skills). So unlike the melee versions (Which as mentioned above, you should have quite a few snares in your bag) which can chase the enemy, it stands there and picks its nose as soon as it moves out of range.

He was asking freaking questions man! I told ThatHappyCat in a previous post it turned his shade into "a rooted archer version of it" and Stx added his comment bellow so what you are saying adds nothing to the thread, not to mention I explained Dark Shades weren't usefull in PVP because they have trouble tracking moving targets. So even if your Shadow Image is rooted in place it still is a safer way to debuff a moving target and it offers more utility compared to Dark Shades for escapes.

vegeta0585b14_ESO

Stx wrote: »

Hmm, I am glad that I held out on morphing my summon shade. So the Shadow Image is an archer? And it has reliable damage uptime on his target? Plus it gives you a strategic way to place an escape... I will take that option over 2 shades lol.

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

vegeta0585b14_ESO wrote: »

except in pvp you have a spammable 70% snare which is also already a teleport. And dark cloak which not only cloaks you but removes any negative effects on you, to escape. The shadow image is completely redundant in the nightblade's toolkit. Not to mention if you're ranged you have skills from your weapon to keep people away / push you back that are vastly more effective and actually do something. I can appreciate your zeal for the skill, but it's not even remotely as good as you are making it sound. It looks cool, and thats about it.

Read the post again! I was just answering a question concerning the shades and I was saying Shadow Image is more usefull compared to Dark Shades and explained a couple of situation where it could be usefull...

Not to mention there is a huge gap of magicka cost between Shadow Image and Shadow Cloak (wich by the way is the most expensive ability in the game). And if you play a ranged character you have sufficient tools on your weapon skills to keep your ennemies away, like snares and KBs, from you and chase them down if they try to get away. Shadow Image is just a hard counter if your target use a charge ability on you (you can also dodge, but that's more stamina expensive).

vegeta0585b14_ESO wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Hmm, I am glad that I held out on morphing my summon shade. So the Shadow Image is an archer? And it has reliable damage uptime on his target? Plus it gives you a strategic way to place an escape... I will take that option over 2 shades lol.

Also not true. The archer is rooted in place, it can not move and has a pretty small range (not 28m like most bow skills). So unlike the melee versions (Which as mentioned above, you should have quite a few snares in your bag) which can chase the enemy, it stands there and picks its nose as soon as it moves out of range.

He was asking freaking questions man! I told ThatHappyCat in a previous post it turned his shade into "a rooted archer version of it" and Stx added his comment bellow so what you are saying adds nothing to the thread, not to mention I explained Dark Shades weren't usefull in PVP because they have trouble tracking moving targets. So even if your Shadow Image is rooted in place it still is a safer way to debuff a moving target and it offers more utility compared to Dark Shades for escapes.

So next time, open your small eyes before you open your big mouth and say some nonsense!

I was explaining the shadow images have NO issues hitting anyone in pvp if you are intelligent and have a snare on your bar, which as a nightshade with access to multiple snares and roots, you should. I'll also add whatever I'd like to the thread, as it's MY thread. Read the entire posts next time, I mean, you even quoted them. I even noted the knockbacks, jump backs, and escapes for ranged characters, which is one of the reasons the shade was redundant. It's also not "more reliable" as it CANT MOVE. The enemy walks out of its cruddy 15ish meter range, and you either pursue or dont, either way the shade is now useless while the melee ones would be chasing. (note the 28m range on the skill is its CAST range, not the shades attack range)

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on abilities, and I feel the shadow image is just not worth it. Don't come to the forums to insult people and cause trouble because someones opinion differs from yours.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

vegeta0585b14_ESO wrote: »

I was explaining the shadow images have NO issues hitting anyone in pvp if you are intelligent and have a snare on your bar, which as a nightshade with access to multiple snares and roots, you should. I'll also add whatever I'd like to the thread, as it's MY thread. Read the entire posts next time, I mean, you even quoted them. I even noted the knockbacks, jump backs, and escapes for ranged characters, which is one of the reasons the shade was redundant. It's also not "more reliable" as it CANT MOVE. The enemy walks out of its cruddy 15ish meter range, and you either pursue or dont, either way the shade is now useless while the melee ones would be chasing. (note the 28m range on the skill is its CAST range, not the shades attack range)

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on abilities, and I feel the shadow image is just not worth it. Don't come to the forums to insult people and cause trouble because someones opinion differs from yours.

I bid you my excuse, sir, for offending you with some very small and meaningless words,

But, if I recall correctly, and I don't have to sinds most is still writen (wich is wonderfull), you were the one complaining about that ability in the initial post and saying that ZOS had to do something about it.

I just tried to give some helpfull advice and tell how that skill could effectively be used for people that didn't knew how it worked. The only claim I ever did was to say Shadow Image had more utility compared to Dark Shade (wich is true sinds it offers more tactical options compared to Dark Shades).

But you, sir, started to speak about my zeal for that skill, followed it up with some off topic answers about Shadow Cloak and Lotus Fan while the discussion was clearly about Shades and their lack of utility. And you discredited every advantages I pointed out about Shadow Image by arguing Dark Shades could pursuit their target instead.

I'll ask you frankly, how am I suppose to take your point into consideration while you so well pointed out this ability did close to no damage and offered inconsistent utility compared to the other Nightblade skills? So what is the purpose of your answer? May you tell me kindly please?

Finaly (and sadly this part got edited), I recall you claim "intelligent people do not use shade" (or something very close to that), wich could makes people suggest they are not smart for using that ability.

So may I ask you, and very politely this time, to refrain yourself from calling people with names and disregard everything they say to avoid further decadence of this insightful thread?

Many thanks!

vegeta0585b14_ESO

Well lets start off by saying your misquote is far from what I said. I said any intelligent pvper has a snare or root on his bar, especially as a nightblade. Then instead of playing rock paper scissors, I simply pointed out that the nightblade's skills synergize better with the shades version over the image due to already having everything the image provides in other more useful skills.

I dont mean to offend anyone, and everyone, as I said, is entitled to their opinions. I will continue to express mine as I see fit, as you are welcome to do of yours. When someone disagrees with you, there is no need to make it a personal vendetta to prove your OPINION is better. Some people like apples, some people like bananas.

Your zeal for a skill just means you are passionate about it, I am not sure why you took offense, none was intended, for saying you enjoyed a skill very much. The other skills I pointed out simply go better with the melee version of the skill.

Now lets hope we can actually get this thread back on topic.

rhubbert_ESO

I wonder if OP unlocked the level I basic Summon Shade and compared it to damage done by his morphed Level IV abilities and got mad without leveling it

Brasseurfb16_ESO

vegeta0585b14_ESO wrote: »

Well lets start off by saying your misquote is far from what I said. I said any intelligent pvper has a snare or root on his bar, especially as a nightblade. Then instead of playing rock paper scissors, I simply pointed out that the nightblade's skills synergize better with the shades version over the image due to already having everything the image provides in other more useful skills.

Probably didn't understood everything you tried to say because I was emphasing to much on my own exemple using a ranged build and the use of Shades in that kind of build.

vegeta0585b14_ESO wrote: »

I dont mean to offend anyone, and everyone, as I said, is entitled to their opinions. I will continue to express mine as I see fit, as you are welcome to do of yours. When someone disagrees with you, there is no need to make it a personal vendetta to prove your OPINION is better. Some people like apples, some people like bananas.

You are right, every one has his own oppinion, but you got me realy confused from your answer to Stx. He was just pointing out he rather take extra utility over two shades.

And you are also right, Shadow Image is rather useless when it comes to chase people down, but in PVP you are not always chasing people to the other side of the map (just exagerating), I should have been more precise on that mather in fact, but in a more controled and less spaced area I believe you can keep a better debuff uptime with the Shadow Image. It's a bit like a big single target area of effect debuff with a recall fonction on top of it.

vegeta0585b14_ESO wrote: »

Your zeal for a skill just means you are passionate about it, I am not sure why you took offense, none was intended, for saying you enjoyed a skill very much. The other skills I pointed out simply go better with the melee version of the skill.

Well for that point I misunderstood you because I use the Zeal word in another context (fanatical adoration to be more exactly). I do not have, personnaly, any form of passion toward the Shade skill. I do think it looks cool and in an objective standpoint I believe it has some use in some situations, and that's all. So when I take your context into mine it follows up like this :
You Adore this power => subjective feeling => not objective => oppinion is not credible
Wich makes me think you disregard my oppinion entirely, wich in this case wasn't true.

vegeta0585b14_ESO wrote: »

Now lets hope we can actually get this thread back on topic.

Good idea, and while on topic how would you suggest to improve the skill sinds your oppinion is pretty negative toward it?

kirnmalidus

rhubbert_ESO wrote: »

I wonder if OP unlocked the level I basic Summon Shade and compared it to damage done by his morphed Level IV abilities and got mad without leveling it

Was wondering the same thing. When you first morph it you have some work to do before it will be at full power.

dw0011nrb19_ESO

Why on earth is ONE SKILL a driving force for you to move forward in this game? This instantly dooms you to be disappointed. Pure dice game and you lost it. Never do that again if your goal in life is to be and stay happy. Just let it unfold itself, dont try so hard..

vegeta0585b14_ESO

For the reccord my dark shades is at level 4.

As for how I'd improve it, I mentioned that in the original post so I wont restate it.

@dw0011nrb19_ESO everyone does things for their own reasons. I am vain and have always played a certain type of character in any RPG that I can, which is a 2 handed, plate wearing, necromancer type character. This is as close as I can get in TESO with no necromancy tree. I am not sure what you mean by "dont try so hard," but looking forward to skills is a major part of the game. Especially end line abilities.

I'll say again that any ability, whether it be the first, or the last, should be worth the skill slot in comparison to other abilities with similar function. Look at the skill, then look at others that give damage decrease + damage over time (or instantly) and ask which you'd rather have on your bar. The 15% damage debuff is great, but thats all that's good about it, and there are higher percentage debuffs with actual damage attatched from other skill lines.

@‌rhubbert_ESO
What kind of damage is your rank 4 dark shades doing?

ramladu_ESO

Is there a range on the teleport/swap on Shadow Image?

Rexo

I have to say when I saw this ability I myself could not wait to use it! But when I finally reached it and had the chance to use it I was so disappointed.. It seems to be an okay tank ability, but for a dps who loves to pvp I really think they should make some changes to the summon shade. It does have some uses but I'm not sure if its enough to be completely viable for pvp at the moment

vegeta0585b14_ESO

Rexo wrote: »

I have to say when I saw this ability I myself could not wait to use it! But when I finally reached it and had the chance to use it I was so disappointed.. It seems to be an okay tank ability, but for a dps who loves to pvp I really think they should make some changes to the summon shade. It does have some uses but I'm not sure if its enough to be completely viable for pvp at the moment

Yea, like other skills of it's type, there should be a damage morph and a utility morph. We have the utility morph in the archer, but the dark shades morph....I honestly dont even know what it's supposed to do. It doesnt even seem to do more than the single shade did. Does it apply TWO 15% debuffs for 30%?

edit* fixing the AI so they dont just stare at mobs would be a huge benefit as well. I've noticed it's pull based too. Say you pull 5 mobs, they kill the one they were summoned on, then stare at the remaining 4. However if you then pull MORE mobs, they will attack. I dont even....

Talketzanto

Double shades are great in pvp...First off you can throw them on treb users and they WILL get off that treb to fight them...Secondly the shades count as meat sheilds...I can't tell you how many times Ide be fighting 1v1 and the other dude kept hitting my 2 shades by mistake (remember theres NO tab targeting so it really messes up people)....Even in zergs its 2 extra bodies on the field soaking up damage....It also shines when you have those choke points and you toss 2 shades to run up the stairs and bother them

NordJitsu

All summoned creatures in this game need a buff.

Tamanous

fieldmarshall3neb18_ESO wrote: »

I dont think its supposed to do any damage.
Wish it had infinite duration though, like Sorcerer pets

That would ruin it for me. I do not want a toggle power taking up a slot on BOTH bars to keep it going. A duration makes it superior to Sorc pets imo.

Talketzanto

agreed, duration is way better

vegeta0585b14_ESO

Talketzanto wrote: »

agreed, duration is way better

definitely way better. I can swap bars and keep em up. I prefer that. However sorc pets dont go brain dead like ours XD