Groups without healers or tanks?? Tanks with zero Aggro control? What's the point?

Calvnor

Almost every group it puts me in for 4 man dungeons is completely void of healers or tanks. I've had several groups where not single player had the ability to even cast one heal and no one had heavy armor or a shield. Why even add the option to select your preferred class when the party finder completely ignores it? What is this, Guild Wars?

THEN, it gets even better. Tanks are a joke. The class is fun, but there are no aggro builders or aoe taunts, ranged taunts, etc... Plus, the taunt(or so they think it is) that you get doesn't do anything. You can taunt the enemy with it, but as soon as someone hits it, it attacks them. There' pretty much is NO way of controlling groups of enemies. It's just one big uncoordinated mess. The point of grouping is to work together and coordinate and synchronize as a team. There really isn't room to do this. If you believe there is, or that you and your groups are coordinated, you have no idea what it actually means to coordinate properly with a group. It's nothing but enemies running around all willy nilly.

Funny how the greatest PvE game makers of all time FINALLY make a multiplayer game, and they choose to focus completely on making it a PvP game. PvP is cool and all, but this is Elder Scrolls, it's generations of PvE only games that gathered millions of fans who love it. And here we though you knew your fans. You know nothing.

I know this is more than one topic, but I just wanted to get this out.

flarefireb16_ESO

Your rant about tanking and coordination makes no sense at all.

First off: You absolutely need coordination to succeed.

If one player throws random AoE in a corner, another hits the nearest melee opponent, a third is looting and the fourth is practicing their /drunkdance emote, you will wipe repeatedly.

However if one player roots/kites the enemy melee while the other three focus fire on casters then archers, you can destroy most packs without even needing heals.

Then onward to tanking. Puncture works fine. There are some enemies which ignore it but it's still an immensely useful tool to a capable tank. You can control groups with Burning Talons, Restraining Prison and Volcanic Rune, just to name a few. Threat may not be a mechanic that's easy to manipulate, but you can still keep your party safe(ish) from hordes of enemies.

Granted, the classic MMO dungeon running protocol, where the tank grabs every enemy's attention, the healer keeps the tank alive, and the DPS picks off enemies one-by-one while avoiding aggro, doesn't work (consistently, anyway). Enemies in ESO aren't very sportsmanlike and will target players other than "the tank", even if they're doing a good job. Protip: Be adaptable and deal with the situation, regardless of your default role.

Getorix

The taunt in the sword and shield line does seem to be broken or at least sometimes broken, my dragon knight chain pull works better for getting agro than ransack does.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

Healing and tanking is not a necessity just a commodity. Having a good healer in the team helps reduce the difficulty of the encounter and a good tank allows you to breath easyer. The taunt still allows you to keep the attention of a boss longuer on yourself then on the rest of the party wich still allows for limited tanking.

UnknownXV

As a templar tank, I have to admit dungeons feel off to me. It's likely in part simply because of what I have come to expect from an MMORPG dungeon run to consist of.

No AoE taunt leaves me thinking they don't intend the tank to actually aggro everything. On trash pulls, I go around puncturing a few mobs (which holds aggro really well for me) and keep an eye on the healer, if he doesn't pull aggro we usually do just fine. DPS holds more aggro in this game than you'd expect, no way around that. Not that I know of.

Calvnor

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »

Healing and tanking is not a necessity just a commodity. Having a good healer in the team helps reduce the difficulty of the encounter and a good tank allows you to breath easyer. The taunt still allows you to keep the attention of a boss longuer on yourself then on the rest of the party wich still allows for limited tanking.

The problem with what you said is; the taunt only works on trash mobs, all bosses are immune to it.

Calvnor

Keep in mind that it's less about how dungeons play out as it is about your class and job having no meaning at all. The reason a tank wears the best armor and has the best defense is so it can take the hits for those in cloth and such. People play a tank so they can tank, in this game you cannot tank. Your class means nothing. In a boss fight, the boss should never be focus attacking a player who's wearing cloth. The tank's job is to make sure that doesn't happen. But in this game you can't do that, the taunt doesn't effect bosses at all, they're all immune. When a boss spawns adds, there's no possible way to pick them up and take them off the healer or dps casters. There's a reason this class and job system is implemented in the best selling and most played games of all time. It works and it gives each player a part to play. Healing in this game is done well and your class choice means something(given that you're actually a healer and not a dragonknight with a healing staff calling themselves a healer). But, a tank class means nothing. Playing a tank in this game is essentially like playing a really bad version of a dps class, that just doesn't die as easily. It takes away a ton of mechanics that get people to work together more strategically.

I just think the tank class in this game needs passive threat building skills and/or threat building aoes and the looking for group tool needs an overhaul, it needs to set up parties better by properly grouping parties with the proper composition. If you don't agree with that, then you're just being ridiculous.

Kroin

Cant agree with you, my tanks in dungeon manage to hold the strongest mobs (bosses, Hard Hiters etc) and 90 % of the time they get the most damage in there face, also every dungeon over lvl 30 is nearly impossible without healer or lets say a wipefest.

The difference between good and bad tanks are how much damage the can mitigate, because i as a healer cant heal 100 % of my time, i dont have the mana for it, so the less damage a tank eats the longer the group will stay alive.

You mostly see after the first group, if your tank is good or bad.

Dekkameron

I've done a few dungeons and from what i can gather the tanks main job is to take aggro off the healer whilst everyone else just throws dps about as hard as possible. Seems to work fine.

In Tempest island dungeon that is exactly what we did and apart from one rather stupid moment when we decided to take on a little too much and wiped we had no deaths at all and rarely did anyones health drop below 80%.
This may have been because we were 1 nightblade and 3 templars and we were all off healing from time to time

Calvnor

Dekkameron wrote: »

I've done a few dungeons and from what i can gather the tanks main job is to take aggro off the healer whilst everyone else just throws dps about as hard as possible. Seems to work fine.

It only seems to work fine because those dungeons are pretty much able to be solo'd, they're just plain easy mode. You will NOT see this with more difficult content.

Wifeaggro13

Its not that bad as you describe.but it definately needs work.its far from a cordinated chalenged group effort . But its not a total Gw2 zerg fest.

Runie

Well our Little team for dungeons does it very cordinated,and if ur tank has the cluebox he can hold decent aoe agro.
Ofc not as good as straight after a aoe taunt, but very close.

I know its hard for people to actually play their class in many casses, but maybe after doing this abit they will be able to.

Eso vet dungeons are not the same as wow / swtor were use of braincells aint needed at all.

calyptic101b16_ESO

Tanking is something that plays out better with bosses. Trash is pretty much a clusterF**K. The point is Hold aggro/CC/Attack healers/stay alive you are using tactics just you need to use tactics.

Most people who says this are just rushing in with NO INTENTION of CCing or adding support to groups. That is the reason it looks so bad. The DPS are doing a *** poor job and just nuking crap with no added support or CC or synergy.

kpugh3b14a_ESO

My experience was that it was an uncoordinated nightmare. The dungeon was the first one in Glenumbra (I forget the name at the moment). Perhaps it was because I am horrible at tanking with a Dragonknight? Perhaps it was because the mechanics of dungeon running isn't well done? Perhaps it was because I didn't understand the mechanics of dungeon running? Perhaps all three?

I do not know the answer. I just know I was grouped with a friend and two randoms. Once inside the dungeon it was difficult to follow the story while fighting. I think I missed a view NPC's to "rescue". I felt so helpless as everyone was running around and I could only control one mob at a time. However, the bosses were much better fights for me personally.

After the dungeon run was over I quit tanking. Was just an awful time unfortunately. Tanking in this game seems to not be my type of gig as I would much rather just roll a pure DPS build and have at it.

But to be really honest, with the experience nerf to the dungeon mobs, it is not even worth running any dungeon more than once. So it is sort of a relief that I didn't enjoy tanking.

hlg

You don't understand the mechanics of tanking in this game at all. Tank has a lot of ways to mitigate damage from other players, the idea of the tanking here is to block attacks that were meant to hit your team members, instead of just keeping aggro. You should focus on intercepting/blocking attacks from other players, taunting only when you are not able to do that. Also, try to kite. It's not WOW, you do not have to keep your damage on a target at all times, you can stop attacking to drop aggro, wait for tank to lure enemy away, regroup and so on. This is just a small piece of tactics available in the game. Now go there, figure them out, instead of being a little *** complaining about something you don't understand.

stungateb14_ESO

I love it when these topics pop up and wonder how often people weapon switch while running a dungeon. In ESO if you think your class (any class) is an archetype class you are playing the wrong game.

Gwarok

Two words on the "tanking" issue:

hint: the WHOLE group has to learn to...

FOCUS FIRE

You "Tanks" have Fiery Chains, Lava Whip, Dark Talon, Defensive Posture, Shield Charge, Uppercut, Power Bash, Dragon Leap (ultimate) at your their disposable (I probably missed one or two more, sorry)....this also means that DpS is going to have to learn to control their AoE at times. Practice WEAPON SWAPPING (You Tanks are going to use it CONSTANTLY). The NPC's in this game (as a collective mob) has an incredibly intelligent AI (one of the BEST I've seen in a long time and I for one absolutely LOVE it; I am no longer a planted meat shield looking bored as all hell and acting like I'm stuck on stupid YAAAY!!! ) so it's not by all means a gather, stack, and hold aggro strategy. Tanks going to find yourself themselves turning in circles and running around like a chicken with it's head cut off stun-bashing, rooting (this is where the controling AoE comes into play), and knocking back; while using Fiery Chains to pull mobs off your their healer.

(Edit) Hell, even I don't have the full hang of it yet. BUT IT'S FUN!!!

Badh0rse

This game actually has given me the best Tank experience I have had in many, many, years of MMO's. The problem for people is that you actually have to be able to play video games ... no more spamming AoE taunts. I personally love it and think if tanks in this game just learn to control the crowd and manage their group members it will be awesome. There is however something that does ruin it for everyone .... and that is taking away any reward for doing dungeons! Come on ESO, pull your heads out your .... errr ummm, you know.

Asava

Hopefully you don't have to explain to your DPS that they need to be the ones to rez people. Even if they protest remind them of what will happen when you, the healer, stop healing the tank that's trying to hold the agro to rez one of the dps monkeys. Fun days are ahead of you my friend!!!

MoMoOG

Calvnor wrote: »

Keep in mind that it's less about how dungeons play out as it is about your class and job having no meaning at all. The reason a tank wears the best armor and has the best defense is so it can take the hits for those in cloth and such. People play a tank so they can tank, in this game you cannot tank. Your class means nothing. In a boss fight, the boss should never be focus attacking a player who's wearing cloth. The tank's job is to make sure that doesn't happen. But in this game you can't do that, the taunt doesn't effect bosses at all, they're all immune. When a boss spawns adds, there's no possible way to pick them up and take them off the healer or dps casters. There's a reason this class and job system is implemented in the best selling and most played games of all time. It works and it gives each player a part to play. Healing in this game is done well and your class choice means something(given that you're actually a healer and not a dragonknight with a healing staff calling themselves a healer). But, a tank class means nothing. Playing a tank in this game is essentially like playing a really bad version of a dps class, that just doesn't die as easily. It takes away a ton of mechanics that get people to work together more strategically.

I just think the tank class in this game needs passive threat building skills and/or threat building aoes and the looking for group tool needs an overhaul, it needs to set up parties better by properly grouping parties with the proper composition. If you don't agree with that, then you're just being ridiculous.

All bosses are immune to taunt? Dude seriously, stop, you have no idea what you are talking about. This sounds like the opinion of someone who ran one lvl 12-15 dungeon with a bad group and thinks he/she has "figured out" the game.

Badh0rse

I have to admit that I have not done many dungeons yet but I tanked that shiz like a boss. I think people need to learn how to tank in this game is all. Just one tanks opinion though.
edit: and fix the damn XP in dungeons! (can't say it enough)

vegeta0585b14_ESO

Gonna go out on a limb and say OP has not progressed passed level 20 dungeons.

This is not world of warcraft, the mechanics work differently here. Aggro is built differently, the AI is programmed to react more like people, and yelling YOUR MOM SUCKS isn't going to make someone as mad as someone rooting them in place over and over, or someone plunking arrows into their healer from 20 yards. This game is much more fun and much more tactical because you have to actually THINK about who to take out first instead of press a button and go LOL GUYS THEY ALL HITTING ME AOE EM DOWN.

The tanks in this game are there to save you in "oh crap" scenarios. When someones about to kick it and they can pull the mob / mobs off. Then on bosses, they can keep aggro the entire time unless the boss has an aggro drop. Please not only get some experience in the game, but stop holding it to super stupid standards that not only dont make sense but are extremely boring. If this ever turned into a game where you could just AOE taunt while everyone stood in one place and AOEd stuff down, most of us would quit.

Calvnor

Letting your egos alter the way you view what's actually going on in a dungeon seems to be the norm for MMO players who live on the forums just to talk stuff. I see people saying that them(as a tank) or their tank controlled the mobs. This is most definitely ignorant. Most groups of enemies within a dungeon are spaced quite far apart and chain pull when you engage them. Then most of them are casters, so they do not move. You just THINK the mobs are controlled because you get tunnel vision once the combat starts and you are unable to see what's actually happening around you, obviously. Talking to fill your ego isn't going to help devs understand what is needed in a game to give a better experience.

vegeta0585b14_ESO

Calvnor wrote: »

Letting your egos alter the way you view what's actually going on in a dungeon seems to be the norm for MMO players who live on the forums just to talk ***. I see people saying that them(as a tank) or their tank controlled the mobs. This is most definitely ignorant. Most groups of enemies within a dungeon are spaced quite far apart and chain pull when you engage them. Then most of them are casters, so they do not move. You just THINK the mobs are controlled because you get tunnel vision once the combat starts and you are unable to see what's actually happening around you, obviously. Talking out of your ass to fill your ego isn't going to help devs understand what is needed in a game to give a better experience.

Not sure who you're talking to, but again, tanks arent MEANT to taunt or control the trash pulls. Nor are your DPS / Heals meant to have 10 DPS / Heals slotted on their bar. In a game with 0 cooldowns you had better have some CC / Survival on your bar, you WILL be getting aggro on trash, that's just how the game works. Thinking every game should be the same with the same type of mechanics is silly. Thinking the devs should change things based on YOUR desires is also silly. Speaking of ego....

Calvnor

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Its not that bad as you describe.but it definately needs work.its far from a cordinated chalenged group effort . But its not a total Gw2 zerg fest.

That's very true. At least ESO has some way to aggro and group heal. GW2 was an insult to MMO gaming. The only thing they need in ESO is a passive ability that causes the tank's attacks to generate more aggro than the rest of the group. That's it. Then it would work perfectly.

Getorix

I would like to see tanks with some innate agro, heavy armor actually be desireable for tanking.

I would like to see tanks be able to actually tank what they agro, I love the idea of dps having to tank some things but trash pulls right now are just a chaotic cluster f. And half of it comes from the fact that we don't have any freakin name plates over mobs.

kpugh3b14a_ESO

Badh0rse wrote: »

This game actually has given me the best Tank experience I have had in many, many, years of MMO's. The problem for people is that you actually have to be able to play video games ... no more spamming AoE taunts. I personally love it and think if tanks in this game just learn to control the crowd and manage their group members it will be awesome. There is however something that does ruin it for everyone .... and that is taking away any reward for doing dungeons! Come on ESO, pull your heads out your .... errr ummm, you know.

I am quoting this poster however they are not the only one who have brought up the idea that people who do not enjoy the ESO style of dungeon mechanics that somehow makes them lesser gamers. It is an abusrd notion to have this belief as there were plenty of challenge encounters in dungeons before WoW (as an example) nerfed it's content. Vanilla/BC dungeons required teamwork with focus targeting, plenty of CC, resource management (mana, threat, rage) etc. So some of these comments lead me to believe these same posters never participated in these early WoW dungeons.

Posters are continually putting down those who prefer to tank using more "traditional" mechanics, it is disturbing seeing this trend proliferate itself throughout the thread. One style of dungeon mechanics is not inherently better than the other, and simply because you enjoy one style over the other does not then indicate that one system makes you a better player. Please get off of your high horse, I think it needs a rest.

Tenrath

As a tank (low level, but w/e) I really think the mechanics are pretty decent. Like others have said, it would be really lame if all the mobs were forced to hit the thing (me) that we want them to hit. It makes fights less linear and far more challenging/interesting this way.

This game is different from others in its genre, it will take some adjustment time, but I hope people like it for what it is. And just as a PSA, tanks CAN'T hold aggro on everything in a dungeon. Get some survival skills and block/dodge like you do in the single player quests.

Getorix

Badh0rse wrote: »

This game actually has given me the best Tank experience I have had in many, many, years of MMO's. The problem for people is that you actually have to be able to play video games ... no more spamming AoE taunts. I personally love it and think if tanks in this game just learn to control the crowd and manage their group members it will be awesome. There is however something that does ruin it for everyone .... and that is taking away any reward for doing dungeons! Come on ESO, pull your heads out your .... errr ummm, you know.

I loved ESO tanking too until around lvl 45-vet dungeons. aggro was next to impossible to hold without spamming different taunts.

Now a tank doesn't spam aoe taunts, they wear light armor for magicka regen and spam aoe roots and snares. How is that better than having to spam aoe taunts?

And I don't mind getting nothing for doing a dungeon, I miss the old days where you didn't always get something just for running a dungeon, when good or rare items meant something and everyone didn't have them.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Wow a game that does what everyone wants, which is leave the trinity behind, and they complain about it not being trinity based. SMH

Getorix

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Wow a game that does what everyone wants, which is leave the trinity behind, and they complain about it not being trinity based. SMH

ESO most definitely still uses the trinity system, it just feels very unrefined at vet levels.

Ive been progression raiding in most major mmos since eq1 and I personally dont know one person who wants the trinity left behind.

Anyone who thought leaving the trinity behind was a good idea quickly change their minds when they actually play an mmo without it like GW2.