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Oil Pots on the Ground....
leewells
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I've noticed that there is a pretty big issue with oil-pots being placed on the floor in small areas (around farms, mills, and mines -- inside the towers) where players will troll the other team by placing and surrounding the door with oil-pots with a stun rune on the ground causing mass death as they enter. This happens on both teams and shouldn't be allowed IMO without some sort of penalty.
I believe that oil pots as well as other artillery that is fired at close proximity to the firing player, should cause that player damage as well. Additionally, I believe oil-pots should only work when they are used from above the opposing team.
Thoughts?
I believe that oil pots as well as other artillery that is fired at close proximity to the firing player, should cause that player damage as well. Additionally, I believe oil-pots should only work when they are used from above the opposing team.
Thoughts?
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Dominion✭✭Personally never seen what your referring to done before. Although I do agree on the oil pots only being able to be mounted on a elevated surface of some sorts.0 -
leewells✭✭✭
It's pretty bad what I saw, and a huge troll event -- you'll have a large group of 100 or more players take one of the resources, and storm inside the tower, and everyone is immediately hit with a rune placed at the door with 5-6 oil-pots that go off at the same time in a small room. The trolling group can achieve a total destruction of a 100 player raid in under a second with just 7 level 10 players. It's instant death for everyone, even VR10's.Personally never seen what your referring to done before. Although I do agree on the oil pots only being able to be mounted on a elevated surface of some sorts.
If pots did the same damage to the owner when spilling them on the ground, it would still do the same thing, though they would also suicide and it would add realism. However to completely eradicate the troll event, having it so pots only do damage from above would entirely negate the issue.
Edited by leewells on 13 April 2014 04:060 -
LilMcGinley✭✭You mean like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKAAJiYfxbI&feature=player_detailpage#t=484
Starts at 8 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWkxSsKWxLU&list=UUBD0VcC6xTqK9E5KNhjmvkg Edited by LilMcGinley on 13 April 2014 04:040 -
leewells✭✭✭LilMcGinley wrote: »You mean like this?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKAAJiYfxbI&feature=player_detailpage#t=484
Starts at 8 minutes.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWkxSsKWxLU&list=UUBD0VcC6xTqK9E5KNhjmvkg
The bottom screenshot is close to what I saw but not quite.
The time's I've seen it used as an exploit and troll event was at the resource towers. just around the door there were 4 oil pots - 2 off to the sides, 2 just in front of the door but spaced apart. There were another 2 oil-pots behind them. There was an additional player that placed a rooting/knockdown rune at the door, so as soon as a player pressed "E" he was instantly dead.
In both setups I see there, a player can run past it, heal and get up top. And in both setups, I don't think you could survive 100 people entering at about the same time. The setup that I'm explaining doesn't allow a player to see what happened before they're a corpse.Edited by leewells on 13 April 2014 04:140 -
leewells✭✭✭I learned early on not to feed the resource tower trolls. Just ignore them.
Zenimax can stop it with a few lines of code. And ignoring isn't always the right answer either, especially when this same group comes back out when your group does ignore them to move on to the next keep and they come out and setup catapults on your keep to prevent re-spawns.
The intent in PVP is to allow players to be overwhelmed by force or clever thinking and be set back to their spawn -- but I'm fairly certain that it was not intended for any amount of cleverness to allow 7 level 10 players to be "untouchable" by a raid of 100, even if the entire raid were at the bottom spectrum of the IQ scale.
Technically speaking, this should be an offense against the EULA section 7 by purposely impeding game progression.3 -
Mobius0✭✭✭I learned early on not to feed the resource tower trolls. Just ignore them.
Zenimax can stop it with a few lines of code. And ignoring isn't always the right answer either, especially when this same group comes back out when your group does ignore them to move on to the next keep and they come out and setup catapults on your keep to prevent re-spawns.
I think that oil pots need a nerf, overall, but it's not because of this. This type of thing is of little consequence.
Sure, they can come out and do some damage, but they could also do the same thing if they were a stealth party, etc..
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leewells✭✭✭I think that oil pots need a nerf, overall, but it's not because of this. This type of thing is of little consequence.
Allow me to clarify: I don't think they need a nerf, as in to do less damage, however, they should do damage to the owner if the pot is spilled on the floor like that or the mechanic shouldn't allow any damage if it can't be poured "downward".Sure, they can come out and do some damage, but they could also do the same thing if they were a stealth party, etc..
I'll break it down....
Why It Hurts Game Play
They can do it once, and as the mechanics of the game demand, they get set back because they generally wouldn't be able to fall back far -- stealthed. You see, if I have a 100 player raid on-going in teamspeak, I ask a team to go find the aggressors harassing the keep preventing re-spawns and setup a forward camp. This is fine, and that is what is intended -- you get rid of the aggressors, let your forward camp provide the temporary relief, and you set back the stealth party beyond your own lines. This gives your raid enough time now to take the keep using the previous keep's re-spawn area before that stealth party can make it back.
What it Costs
Obviously forward camps are precious commodities that only 1 in 10 people actually carry around because of its cost -- not necessarily it's value. For some people casually playing PVP, they can only afford one of these tents once per month if they're also buying repair kits and artillery.
How Its Much Different
Obviously, a 100-player raid cannot take 7 level (not Veteran Level) 10's with this setup. However a well matched group of 7 players dispatched to handle a stealth party that's currently knocking on the door of your keep has a very low chance of survival if flanked and on the run and suffers a very high chance of being pushed back to a keep in their territory giving your team the time it needs to finish a siege using the keep and not the 20-respawn tent.
How it Can Get Worse
Imagine now that if everyone gets the bright idea to do this, there would be no more PVP because everyone would camp a tower making progression for the other side near impossible.
How It is an Exploit
When a team camps like this in the other team's tower, the other team cannot have access to them except through that door -- there is no way to tare a hole in the wall and range attack them which is what is intended.Edited by leewells on 13 April 2014 04:461 -
ThatHappyCat✭✭✭✭✭I don't know, I find this hilariously ingenious. But I'm generally leery of zerg action so anything that wrecks a zerg is hilarious in my books.2 -
leewells✭✭✭ThatHappyCat wrote: »I don't know, I find this hilariously ingenious. But I'm generally leery of zerg action so anything that wrecks a zerg is hilarious in my books.
The problem is, if everyone begins to do it, the map won't move. Maybe one or two keeps can be taken by a side and pushed back, but if this is not fixed and all sides begin to use this tactic, it will stop PVP progression and scroll efforts dead in its tracks, on ALL sides.Edited by leewells on 13 April 2014 04:470 -
Mobius0✭✭✭How it Can Get Worse
Imagine now that if everyone gets the bright idea to do this, there would be no more PVP because everyone would camp a tower making progression for the other side near impossible.
You don't need to take the tower to take a resource point. So them defending it, is them defending a pointless position.
In fact, I wouldn't mind if the enemy did it! They'd just be wasting their time guarding a pointless tower. That's 7 less enemies on the battlefield.
Of course, it's different if you have people feeding them kills - you can't always fix stupid.
Also, in that video, they said they earned 3000 AP? Oil is 800 each, and it looked like they were dropping quite a few. In the end, they probably LOST AP, overall.
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ThatHappyCat✭✭✭✭✭Given that the reason this tactic works is because of sheep zerg mentality (LOOK ENEMY IN THE TOWER I DON'T HAVE TO CHARGE INTO BUT I'LL DO IT ANYWAY BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING IT), I think it's fine.
And if this could be applied to more important locations, well. Learn not to charge mindlessly? I think it's awesome you could set up deadly traps like this, and it's not like it's completely uncounterable (use a movement ability, AoE the place up, etc.).Edited by ThatHappyCat on 13 April 2014 04:541 -
leewells✭✭✭You don't need to take the tower to take a resource point. So them defending it, is them defending a pointless position.
In fact, I wouldn't mind if the enemy did it! They'd just be wasting their time guarding a pointless tower. That's 7 less enemies on the battlefield.
It is not as pointless as you think. Keeping an enemy's forward keep in "under attack" status while the other team is off on a siege is a tactical maneuver to employ by setting the siege back even further for reinforcements. So, you obviously need to stop people from knocking on your forward keep's door to progress to other keeps with minimal risk and cost. I know you're concern is we have tents - and we do -- but for 100 people, that is 5 tents to accommodate one wipe (which is expected against a well defended fort), but the cost of those 5 tents is collectively astronomical when you take into account the collective points gained from that siege.
The problem, as it stands, is the invulnerability status they gain by doing this.Of course, it's different if you have people feeding them kills - you can't always fix stupid.
Also, in that video, they said they earned 3000 AP? Oil is 800 each, and it looked like they were dropping quite a few. In the end, they probably LOST AP, overall.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Oil can be bought with gold.ThatHappyCat wrote: »Given that the reason this tactic works is because of sheep zerg mentality (LOOK ENEMY IN THE TOWER I DON'T HAVE TO CHARGE INTO BUT I'LL DO IT ANYWAY BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING IT), I think it's fine.
And if this could be applied to more important locations, well. Learn not to charge mindlessly? I think it's awesome you could set up deadly traps like this, and it's not like it's completely uncounterable (use a movement ability, AoE the place up, etc.).
I think you missed the point, no you cannot charge in mindlessly without dying -- you can't charge in at all -- once you take the farm your team cannot damage the walls to make an opening to damage them -- the team inside the tower is effectively INVULNERABLE.Edited by leewells on 13 April 2014 05:041 -
ThatHappyCat✭✭✭✭✭I think you missed the point, no you cannot charge in mindlessly without dying -- you can't charge in at all -- once you take the farm your team cannot damage the walls to make an opening to damage them -- the team inside the tower is effectively INVULNERABLE.
I was referring to if it could be applied to actual important locations like keep doors. Those can be broken open and you could just throw in AoEs or use an ability to get through the gauntlet.
Resource towers? They're non-essential, if you want to go in and die because every other sheep is doing it then... be my guest?
Edited by ThatHappyCat on 13 April 2014 05:060 -
leewells✭✭✭ThatHappyCat wrote: »I meant if it could be applied to actual important locations like keep doors. Those can be broken open and you could just throw in AoEs or use an ability to get through the gauntlet.
I would LOL with you on this one.ThatHappyCat wrote: »Resource towers? They're non-essential, if you want to go in and die then... be my guest?
The tower is non-essential, but setting that team back to their territory when they attack your rear keep is essential. But this cannot be done when they can retreat a few feet away into the tower and become invulnerable to any attack.
Taking assets aren't the only tactically advantageous actions in this game -- setting players and teams back to their territory can be just as advantageous as taking a keep, a farm, a mill, etc. Wouldn't you agree? Naturally, using a mechanic to do something the game didn't intend (such as becoming invulnerable to setbacks hours at the time) can impede game progression.Edited by leewells on 13 April 2014 05:230 -
leewells✭✭✭I just noticed something -- lol, that guy that got past them in that video and set up the oil pot on TOP of them, that was me (Templar in gold plate armor) *snickers* I seriously did that to one group in a tower a day or two ago by running in with a HOT and a few other buffs, get up next to the mage in the tower and setup a pot. These guy's tactics IMO are somewhat valid -- they were not invulnerable by using 6 pots and 1 rune. However they should have took damage by spilling hot oil at their feet. And yes, I was LOLing hard in chat when peps were complaining while zerging that tower -- today however when I saw this setup and realized that not even Indomitable or damage-shield worked, they effectively created a formation of invulnerability which is something PVP mechanics did not intend.Edited by leewells on 13 April 2014 05:340
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Singular✭✭✭✭ThatHappyCat wrote: »I don't know, I find this hilariously ingenious. But I'm generally leery of zerg action so anything that wrecks a zerg is hilarious in my books.
The problem is, if everyone begins to do it, the map won't move. Maybe one or two keeps can be taken by a side and pushed back, but if this is not fixed and all sides begin to use this tactic, it will stop PVP progression and scroll efforts dead in its tracks, on ALL sides.
Even if no one finds a way to outmaneuver this strategy, not everyone will start doing it. Camping in towers and waiting for an invading army, trusty oil pots in hand, won't become popular because people want to take over castles.
That's the goal of pvp, right - capture the flags, become emperor. You're not going to get that sitting in a keep. So, we're just going to have to work out ways around this strategy.War, give me war, give me war.0 -
danteafk✭✭You may wonder what they did in beta testing, so many fundamental game breaking bugs in PvP.0
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If you control a tower with enemy peeps camping it let them, they have taken themselves out of the fight. Set up a ganksquad outside and wait about ten minutes. they will get bored and recall or come out. Don't waste lives trying to remove them.0
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SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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Mobius0✭✭✭
I was thinking more along the lines of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqz5dbs5zmo
You know, keep walking, and ignore the oil flames
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Kypho✭✭✭✭What would happen if you would do it in RL? Boiling oil on the ground floating everywhere right? So what?0 -
Samiri✭✭✭This tactic is only usable if the enemy is so stupid the enter the tower they do not need. Its NOT an essential part that you need to have.
You only get hurt if you enter the tower, well then don´t enter, if the ZERG had not taken the tower it could be destroyed, but the Zerg does not think and like someone else wrote, you cant fix stupid.
I believe that our group were one of the first raids to do this actually because we were pushed into the tower by the zerg and had to set up a defensive position.
The only reason to why we got kills, was stupid people trying to enter the tower.
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simple fix allow players to damage team castles... ofcourse there should be some small penalty for damages but with big raid 1 guy can take it for the team and with tower shot to shreds killing campers inside becomes easy (or just have enough tough npc spawns inside the tower...)1
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TheWolf✭Alright. Obviously many of the people here haven't been in this situation or maybe some of you take part in this "tactic."
I encountered a group of DC who set up this tactic on Alessia bridge while we were fighting off EP. It's pretty damn annoying when you're paying attention to an enemy and some brilliant people want to mess with another by setting up and spilling oil everywhere and spamming that damn DK immobilizing skill (idk what the exact name of it is) which basically means it's instant death for everyone no matter what they're doing. This was my experience with this "tactic". I'm a nightblade vampire and i managed to kill a a few thanks to mist form and dark veil and multiple kamikaze attempts.
As for the one people are describing. If they're holed up in a resource tower and you ignore them the obvious consequence will be the lack of reinforcements due to these people picking them off. And if things get too hot for them they go back to their hidy hole. This is why i went after them with multiple kamikaze attempts because they were picking of the dominion and no one gets away with that sht.
Anyways we left that party and let blues and reds have fun together while we face rolled the buddies of the brilliant people who decided to *** with us.
I agree with the oil dmg being ok you know because oil can get hot? But oil is also slippery and can get on our clothes if you're not careful so it should hurt the user if used on the ground. And since these brilliant people like to set up multiple oil buckets and run around making a mess then many people will get hurt.
How it should be right?1 -
Minack✭✭✭As for the one people are describing. If they're holed up in a resource tower and you ignore them the obvious consequence will be the lack of reinforcements due to these people picking them off. And if things get too hot for them they go back to their hidy hole. This is why i went after them with multiple kamikaze attempts because they were picking of the dominion and no one gets away with that sht
Your reinforcements need to take a detour then.0 -
Nybling✭✭✭✭✭
It's pretty bad what I saw, and a huge troll event -- you'll have a large group of 100 or more players take one of the resources, and storm inside the tower, and everyone is immediately hit with a rune placed at the door with 5-6 oil-pots that go off at the same time in a small room. The trolling group can achieve a total destruction of a 100 player raid in under a second with just 7 level 10 players. It's instant death for everyone, even VR10's.Personally never seen what your referring to done before. Although I do agree on the oil pots only being able to be mounted on a elevated surface of some sorts.
If pots did the same damage to the owner when spilling them on the ground, it would still do the same thing, though they would also suicide and it would add realism. However to completely eradicate the troll event, having it so pots only do damage from above would entirely negate the issue.
Someone must be on the Bloodthorn (NA) campaign and been at the receiving end of us doing that. Mmm Alliance Point farm, heh.
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